Make the Drivers popular again!

wi_racefan said:
This is so needed, it's pretty sad when the biggest news in stock car racing is a retired driver driving a late model. Supposedly that is also the highest selling diecast so far this year

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Hard spot for NASCAR here.

Ryan Blaney is very marketable and very well liked. That's an easy one.

Denny Hamlin is a great villain, and the overwhelming majority of the fans hate Bubba Wallace and we all know why, but Bubba's also got personality and a ton of it.

But the two most popular drivers in the sport have ZERO personality and that's hard to push. Chase Elliott has zero personality and doesn't move the needle at all. Kyle Larson is super popular because he races dirt and is the most talented racecar driver in the history of the sport, but he also has absolutely no personality. The one time we saw anything resembling personality from Larson ... oops.

Way too many of these drivers have been programmed by corporate PR reps to be robotic. They're taught at a young age to get out of the car, show no emotion, run down a list of their sponsors, and move on. So that's what they do.
 
All I want in a drivers personality is to drive the shiet out of that car and maybe a dry sense of humor. To much exposure is a put off, and it becomes clownish imo.

I don't see marketing or good PR as a good way to create the next set of legendary drivers.
 
Greg said:
All I want in a drivers personality is to drive the shiet out of that car and maybe a dry sense of humor. To much exposure is a put off, and it becomes clownish imo.

I don't see marketing or good PR as a good way to create the next set of legendary drivers.
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You don’t think the number of views and “likes” matter? 😎 What the hell is wrong with you?
 
A lot of today's drivers are paid wheelmen. They're not like those from years ago that found their way through the ranks to get to the top. Those guys were thankful to get there and wasn't going to back down from anyone else. And the ones that do have a personality get neutered by the PR/social media people because of sponsors and not wanting to alienate the ones they do have.
 
Note that this is a highly opinionated and subjective post, YMMV

When people talk about a great driver or moment, are they reminiscing about something he said or did on the track?
I myself think of moments like Alan Kulwicki at Atlanta in '92, Craven and Kurt Busch battling for the checkered flag at Darlington.

Even with the famous 1979 Daytona 500, I'm thinking of Donnie and Cale overcoming early problems and making up laps during the race only to take each other out trying to win it, with Petty ending a 43-race winless streak; that was the passion, in my opinion. That, along with the smells of racing gas and tires, and the noise that dominated the senses, etc., was the stuff that got me out of bed the next morning with instant thoughts about the next race, and I lived all week just waiting.

I guess Bobby and Cale showed more personality with the post-race fight, and to be honest, that is what people still talk about the most. But I could have lived with or without the fight between Bobby and Cale; that's not why I follow racing or made it my dream as a kid. Bobby and Cale were both larger than life because of the way they drove; the fight was a sideshow, to put it kindly.

Tim Richmond is another interesting case imo. Some called him Hollywood, and he may have had the wildest personality of all. But it was his incredible performance during the last 2/3rds of the 1986 season that inspired me. The Richmond/Hyde combo was terrible for the first 10 races, and it looked like a bust. Then they figured it out, and they could not have been any more brilliant imo. It was a great racing story that a contrived Cole Trickle could never accuratly represent.
 
HoneyBadger said:
Hard spot for NASCAR here.

Ryan Blaney is very marketable and very well liked. That's an easy one.

Denny Hamlin is a great villain, and the overwhelming majority of the fans hate Bubba Wallace and we all know why, but Bubba's also got personality and a ton of it.

But the two most popular drivers in the sport have ZERO personality and that's hard to push. Chase Elliott has zero personality and doesn't move the needle at all. Kyle Larson is super popular because he races dirt and is the most talented racecar driver in the history of the sport, but he also has absolutely no personality. The one time we saw anything resembling personality from Larson ... oops.

Way too many of these drivers have been programmed by corporate PR reps to be robotic. They're taught at a young age to get out of the car, show no emotion, run down a list of their sponsors, and move on. So that's what they do.
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That's a mighty broad statement there big boy (and the overwhelming majority of the fans hate Bubba Wallace and we all know why).

Please expand on that comment oh all knowing smart one!

Below is a Honey Badger and you sure ain't one.

 
sdj said:
That's a mighty broad statement there big boy (and the overwhelming majority of the fans hate Bubba Wallace and we all know why).

Please expand on that comment oh all knowing smart one!

Below is a Honey Badger and you sure ain't one.

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We all know why.

It's the same reason there was a ton of outrage on X about Rajah Caruth getting re-upped and "he disrespected our flag" by standing at attention during the National Anthem.
 
MRM said:
A lot of today's drivers are paid wheelmen. They're not like those from years ago that found their way through the ranks to get to the top. Those guys were thankful to get there and wasn't going to back down from anyone else. And the ones that do have a personality get neutered by the PR/social media people because of sponsors and not wanting to alienate the ones they do have.
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Yet, aside from Chase Elliott who is mega-popular because of his inherited fanbase, the drivers with the biggest personalities seem to be the ones attracting sponsors.

I don't think it's corporate sponsors neutering these drivers. I used to think that 15-20 years ago. But this stuff starts at a very young age. These kids are being coached in Bandoleros on how to say exactly the right thing, to list off sponsors and just be thankful, to not get super excited after a win, and so on. I've seen parents behind me holding up pre-written cue cards showing their son or daughter exactly what to say in an interview.

I went to an ARCA race in 2021 and every single driver was either some 14-year-old kid who was polished and said the same thing, or was a 24-year-old man with a goatee who also looked exactly the same as the next 24-year-old man.
 
sdj said:
That's a mighty broad statement there big boy (and the overwhelming majority of the fans hate Bubba Wallace and we all know why).

Please expand on that comment oh all knowing smart one!

Below is a Honey Badger and you sure ain't one.

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You didnt ask me, but here is my two cents away.

I think of Larson as the kid that just wants to race. Running an insane amount of races, a wife and three kids. I cant see him having the time to think about developing a personality, and I think that is a good thing
 
Greg said:
You didnt ask me, but here is my two cents away.

I think of Larson as the kid that just wants to race. Running an insane amount of races, a wife and three kids. I cant see him having the time to think about developing a personality, and I think that is a good thing
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Yeah, I don't think he has had the time for much PR work lol. Too busy racing. It will be interesting to see how this works out. It's a paid gig for the drivers. None of the experts here have seen it but of course they all have opinions for something they haven't seen yet.
 
HoneyBadger said:
Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer?
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You stated, we all know why people don't like Wallace.

I do not know the answer, that is why I am asking the all knowing Honey Badger why? Come on boy, step up and tell us.
 
HoneyBadger said:
the overwhelming majority of the fans hate Bubba Wallace and we all know why
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I won't disagree that SOME NASCAR fans hate Wallace because he's black (why are we tap-dancing around say it?), but 'overwhelming majority'? I'm going to need independent poll results before I buy that part of your statement.
 
virtualbalboa said:
A bunch of rich kids aren't interesting to me and that is fundamentally the issue NASCAR has on marketing. I can't relate to William Byron on any level.
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Do you find it easier to relate to those from less privileged backgrounds? I doubt I have much in common with any of them. They've spent years developing the skill to get paid big bucks to put their bodies on the line week in and week out. Somehow I'm still able to connect with some of them without knowing their backgrounds.
 
Greg said:
All I want in a drivers personality is to drive the shiet out of that car and maybe a dry sense of humor. To much exposure is a put off, and it becomes clownish imo.

I don't see marketing or good PR as a good way to create the next set of legendary drivers.
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I've only been following NASCAR since 1995. I can recall only a scant handful of drivers who were able to achieve popularity based on their personalities without having solid performance stats. Kenny Wallace, Michael Waltrip, ... uh, ...
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Do you find it easier to relate to those from less privileged backgrounds? I doubt I have much in common with any of them. They've spent years developing the skill to get paid big bucks to put their bodies on the line week in and week out. Somehow I'm still able to connect with some of them without knowing their backgrounds.
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Wallace, Rajah, Hailie and many more drove under Nascar's the drive for diversity program. Judging by comments around here, many don't like the well off or the less privileged. I don't think having money or not makes that much difference these days.
Most sponsors are looking for somebody that represents what they are selling. In most cases the more popular the better. It's been that way for ages.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I've only been following NASCAR since 1995. I can recall only a scant handful of drivers who were able to achieve popularity based on their personalities without having solid performance stats. Kenny Wallace, Michael Waltrip, ... uh, ...
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It’s a combination. Just like Peyton Manning, great QB who’s also super marketable. You just have to be a little funny and a little honest
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I won't disagree that SOME NASCAR fans hate Wallace because he's black (why are we tap-dancing around say it?), but 'overwhelming majority'? I'm going to need independent poll results before I buy that part of your statement.
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No one is going to get most of the fans booing him to admit they don't like Wallace because of his race. I mean, I could pretend something else is at play, but why?

Re: Rich kids - yeah, I don't and can't relate to being a wealthy kid who has a silver spoon. I respect them when they race and obviously there is a lot of them, but that's it. I respect them. I respect many competitors and competitions I don't watch or care about watching.
 
StandOnIt said:
I mostly focus on performance unless I think they are acting like entitled pricks.
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If they're "promoting the drivers", they're promoting their personalities. Which, for the record, is actually the right thing to do. My issue is more that auto racing has fundamentally changed and everyone at the top level made it before age 25, almost all of whom with insane sums of money invested into their careers by parents seeking to keep them away from the family business for whatever reason.
 
virtualbalboa said:
If they're "promoting the drivers", they're promoting their personalities. Which, for the record, is actually the right thing to do. My issue is more that auto racing has fundamentally changed and everyone at the top level made it before age 25, almost all of whom with insane sums of money invested into their careers by parents seeking to keep them away from the family business for whatever reason.
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I agree but I do not know how we will ever get away from those realities. It would probably be next to impossibile. A rich mans game with blue colar fans is a massive understatement.
 
Focus on drivers should go great for the Bubba Wallace's as Toni Breidinger's.
 
There is tons of low buck racing over the country, but you aren't going to see it with a media contract behind it. Flo covers a little of it. I guess it is natural to resent that it takes big money to race in big places in front of thousands of fans at home and in the stands. Fans boo'd Kenny Wallace when he first started dirt racing at a grass roots level as a "rich kid".
 
DanicaFreak said:
Maybe not. But it may give NASCAR what it wants. More eyeballs on the sport.
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Can't say I have ever been to a race where women aren't present. Some work like crazy to help the team. Some fans when it comes to women and racing are stuck on winning or else. I notice they aren't that way with the numerous men in the series. It is getting possible in racing for women to have long successful careers if they do decent and can keep sponsorship. So far Toni Breidinger has been able to do so. She's bringing the eyeballs.
 
Greg said:
I agree but I do not know how we will ever get away from those realities. It would probably be next to impossibile. A rich mans game with blue colar fans is a massive understatement.
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I mean, there are ways. Lewis Hamilton didn't have that benefit for him unlike literally everyone else on the grid but happened to be in the right time and right place to have Ron Dennis stumble across him. If Lewis Hamilton was racing karts in Oklahoma, he never gets that break, though alternately, he'd have many many many more chances at the opportunity to race at a professional/semiprofessional level. It just wouldn't likely be above micros unless, again, he caught a lucky break with the right benefactor at the right place at the right time. You could use all manner of methodologies to discern talent, but the primary one continues to be "be good at a very high level of US national touring motorsports" for those few that ever manage to pull together their own sponsorship deals and buy a seat to try and make it. That's never gonna cut it.

Of course NASCAR could say they're rebranding to be a aspirational thing and not a thing for working class folks. I'm sure that would both go over well with the current fanbase as well as totally manage to alter NASCAR's image from Talladega Nights/Ricky Bobby with the sorts of consumers they would prefer to have watch and attend.

IMO there are literally zero negatives whatsoever to having an enforced age limit of 18 to drive a certified race car. The closest thing to a negative would be the team owners who cry foul over not being able to install a failson for huge cash. Pushing them out a-ways is good for cognitive development too even if it reduces the years of fast twitch muscle reactions + feeling of invincibility that makes those kids often so good.
 
virtualbalboa said:
IMO there are literally zero negatives whatsoever to having an enforced age limit of 18 to drive a certified race car.
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I got lost. I thought we were talking about economic advantage. Now we're talking about age? Waiting until 18 would further handicap those drivers who have to get attention strictly for their talent.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I got lost. I thought we were talking about economic advantage. Now we're talking about age? Waiting until 18 would further handicap those drivers who have to get attention strictly for their talent.
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We're talking about auto racing; a sport consisting of people driving automobiles. The majority of states in the US only permit people to drive once they've gotten to 16; why would I expect those who need to rely on attention would be younger than 18? They wouldn't have easy access to a car, much less a race car. It isn't an accident that shifting the age limits at the grassroots to accommodate everyone who thought their kid was the next Al Unser Jr. or Jeff Gordon had the eventual effect of grown men never getting serious opportunities in NASCAR and every division of pavement racing being turned into Romper Room.

Also: who REALLY wants to watch a car race, whether it be USF3000, F3, CARS Late Model Tour, or USAC Midgets, and you see half the field is high school age? The average person doesn't want to watch kids engaged in risky activity. I know Daison Pursley is good, and he'd be just as good if he had to wait to race a car until he could actually provide consent himself rather than nearly wind up paralyzed before most kids had graduated high school
 
HoneyBadger said:
I don't think it's corporate sponsors neutering these drivers. I used to think that 15-20 years ago. But this stuff starts at a very young age. These kids are being coached in Bandoleros on how to say exactly the right thing, to list off sponsors and just be thankful, to not get super excited after a win, and so on. I've seen parents behind me holding up pre-written cue cards showing their son or daughter exactly what to say in an interview.
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I'm gonna expand on this a bit because you're on the right track. Yes, all of what you just said is true. But beyond that, there's another component to this. These kids are lacking certain major life experiences that we could have expected a driver of prior eras to have.

  • Since these kids have been racing full time from age 10-12 forwards, they were never in traditional schooling or school at all. They don't interact with average people their age pretty much ever except in a racing capacity, possibly from birth depending on how much their parents are into homeschooling
  • None of these kids have ever held an actual job where they were expected to show up and do things at the behest of someone else and potentially face criticism
  • Not having a job or school, they don't have any of the traditional support and engagement structures they could create from those. There's no dance, no prom, house parties, no riding bikes with your friends and having adventures, none of the experiences that normal people have growing up.
  • The formula brats might spend a year or 4 in Europe but otherwise you have an extremely myopic view of America built entirely around race tracks likely in a tight geographic region

So yes, these are media trained kids intended to assist Pops with B2B deals and live out his dream of being a race car driver. This also means they are media trained kids intended to assist Pops with B2B deals and live out his dream of being a race car driver, and not remotely normal.
 
Ah yes we’ve reached the tried and true “I want to relate to my Everyman working class driver like I could in the olden days” peak off season post….as the Everyman working class driver took his yacht to the Bahamas for an off season fishing trip. The older I’ve gotten in age, these drivers have gotten younger than me. I guess my question is as you watch these races each week, why you would feel the need to relate to a 23 year old kid that drives race cars for a living? Hell some of the Xfinity drivers are young enough to be my child now, I feel no need to relate. I’m still in awe of these guys and gals ability to drive a race car at a level I couldn’t humanly comprehend. That should be the marketing hook.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
I guess my question is as you watch these races each week, why you would feel the need to relate to a 23 year old kid that drives race cars for a living?
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If you're asking me to be a fan of the person, I'm going to want to know they are a person who possesses any of my values beyond "I like cars that go vroom". That's what promoting the drivers means. NASCAR promoted around the competition side for a long time now - one might suggest they wanted to ensure no one was bigger than them again post-Dale, but that's entirely speculation - that ain't what they're talking about here and now. Some podperson whose dad moved the family to Mooresville when they were 11 so Dad could network more easily at Millbridge or Hickory's pits is not gonna be that person.
 
aunty dive said:
No amount of media focus is going to turn Toni Breidinger into a competitive NASCAR racer.
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She made the list of 150 most marketable athletes in the world, and was the only person in motorsports outside of F1 to do so.

She has more potential than Hailie Deegan to grow the sport. Just needs to perform on track now.
 
virtualbalboa said:
If you're asking me to be a fan of the person, I'm going to want to know they are a person who possesses any of my values beyond "I like cars that go vroom". That's what promoting the drivers means. NASCAR promoted around the competition side for a long time now - one might suggest they wanted to ensure no one was bigger than them again post-Dale, but that's entirely speculation - that ain't what they're talking about here and now. Some podperson whose dad moved the family to Mooresville when they were 11 so Dad could network more easily at Millbridge or Hickory's pits is not gonna be that person.
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I’m a simple man, I like cars that go vroom. If I find the person making that car go vroom likeable in terms of driving talent that entertains and coming across humble in their interviews or soft spoken I’ll probably be a fan.
 
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