Time for NASCAR to revisit top 30 rule

MRM said:
That happened last year in the Lucas Oil Late Model Dirt Series when they went to a final 4 format. The driver that led all season had well over a 500-point lead going into the final race. He bent something in the suspension early in the race and was not competitive. He lost the championship because of a rut in the track despite absolutely dominating the season. The series has now changed it to where it's based on the final 4 races.
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I remember watching that mess of a final race and deciding that dirt late models, at least in that series, wasn't for me either. When I watch, I watch entirely and solely to see RTJ now. You may see how the impact of the finale could have affected my viewing habits. Maybe next year when I pay for Dirtvision out of pocket, I'll pay attention to their series more since it keeps a traditional points system that I prefer when I'm doing something like "watching 70 races a year from one series".

What happened was, from the perspective of me getting to be a bigger fan of RTJ, great. I don't know that it was what the folks who run that series were looking for though. Maybe it is, and they relish my infrequent hate watching to see the best driver in the series try and overcome tidal waves of nonsense. Seems like they could have gone about it differently to get me to care, but what do I know?
 
MRM said:
That happened last year in the Lucas Oil Late Model Dirt Series when they went to a final 4 format. The driver that led all season had well over a 500-point lead going into the final race. He bent something in the suspension early in the race and was not competitive. He lost the championship because of a rut in the track despite absolutely dominating the season. The series has now changed it to where it's based on the final 4 races.
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This brings up another good point. In stick and ball, playing for a championship, a player goes down and they pull one off the bench and nobody bats an eye, the "team" are still in the game. In mechanical racing, a cylinder goes down, a low or flat tire, bent body or suspension and "you" are done and lose a whole season. It's a terrible way to crown a champion. Four races are better but what do the others do for 4 races? It just doesn't compute.
 
StandOnIt said:
This brings up another good point. In stick and ball, playing for a championship, a player goes down and they pull one off the bench and nobody bats an eye, the "team" are still in the game. In mechanical racing, a cylinder goes down, a low or flat tire, bent body or suspension and "you" are done and lose a whole season. It's a terrible way to crown a champion.
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It was a horrendous race from start to finish. RTJ still managed a high finish because there was something like 5-6 cars left running at the end thanks to the track being an unmitigated disaster. The Giants beating the undefeated Patriots is a story in part because the Giants managed to overcome the odds on a neutral, well managed field. Had Tom Brady's ACL blown out two snaps in (and a torrent of injuries following him) because the field was allowed to become quicksand, the response to how that game went and ended would be very, very different.
 
virtualbalboa said:
Have the NASCAR playoffs produced a single team/driver combo that actually managed to win the title as a Cinderella? Closest I can think of is the year Newman made it to the final race without a single win right after NASCAR instituted a series of rules changes intended to make wins matter more. He still didn't win though.
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JJ's 7th he was the 4th best playoff car that race and everyone just crashed

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wi_racefan said:
JJ's 7th he was the 4th best playoff car that race and everyone just crashed

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He was a 6 time champion with 4 race wins on the season entering the finale. He was not a Cinderella. The only person who might have filled that bill at the 2016 Ecoboost 400 is the guy who was in the lead when a phantom debris caution flew and was subsequently wrecked, never to race again.
 
wi_racefan said:
JJ's 7th he was the 4th best playoff car that race and everyone just crashed

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The playoffs could possibly be the reason Carl Edwards quit the series. Those of us familiar with his last race, what he did after being eliminated and never returning to race again have to ask that question after seeing that.
 
"Win and you're in" gives the mid to smaller teams hope that something like we saw at Daytona could happen to them. It gives sponsors of mid to smaller teams hope that something like we saw at Daytona could happen to them. And hope is very good for business, and very good for the sport. So who cares if a 30-something place driver gets kicked out after the first round instead of a much better driver who will surely get kicked out after the first round. Having the 20-36 type cars & sponsors coming back every week looking for that lightening strike is worth the tradeoff. The cream eventually rises regardless.
 
Allenbaba said:
"Win and you're in" gives the mid to smaller teams hope that something like we saw at Daytona could happen to them. It gives sponsors of mid to smaller teams hope that something like we saw at Daytona could happen to them. And hope is very good for business, and very good for the sport. So who cares if a 30-something place driver gets kicked out after the first round instead of a much better driver who will surely get kicked out after the first round. Having the 20-36 type cars & sponsors coming back every week looking for that lightening strike is worth the tradeoff. The cream eventually rises regardless.
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So the rest of us have to listen to months of nonsense so you can sell more widgets?
 
Allenbaba said:
"Win and you're in" gives the mid to smaller teams hope that something like we saw at Daytona could happen to them. It gives sponsors of mid to smaller teams hope that something like we saw at Daytona could happen to them. And hope is very good for business, and very good for the sport. So who cares if a 30-something place driver gets kicked out after the first round instead of a much better driver who will surely get kicked out after the first round. Having the 20-36 type cars & sponsors coming back every week looking for that lightening strike is worth the tradeoff. The cream eventually rises regardless.
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I see your logic and can see some merit.
But isn't it possible that the team in the 17th or 18th position could also lose a sponsor over a system that promotes a fluke at their expense.

It is a big investment to make and has to be disheartening to see it so disrespected. They might just decide to spend those promotional dollars on something more realiable or serious about rewarding performance.
 
Top 25 for an automatic win and in seems better more sensible to me. Top 20 seems even better if you want the best in the playoff but you want to balance that with people still willing to go all out at the end of the year. Either way 30 is too many.
 
All I know is that I was thrilled for Harrison to win a race. His Mom & Dad were overjoyed and I was happy for them. I don’t pay attention to the playoffs so it doesn’t matter to me when drivers low in the standings win. I can’t wait for Darlington!
 
Greg said:
I see your logic and can see some merit.
But isn't it possible that the team in the 17th or 18th position could also lose a sponsor over a system that promotes a fluke at their expense.

It is a big investment to make and has to be disheartening to see it so disrespected. They might just decide to spend those promotional dollars on something more realiable or serious about rewarding performance.
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Yeah, I mean, you won't ever satisfy everyone. But the idea that anyone can win and get in gives more teams hope than the one or two who get screwed by it a season. And when you choose to sponsor someone like Bubba, you know going in making the playoffs is a toss up. So him not making the playoffs is hardly getting screwed. Do Bubba/Ross really "deserve" a chance to win a championship? They're not even in the top 10 in points. They should be allowed to win a championship, but not Harrison? Is there honestly even a difference come November...?

And it's funny to me how many people in this thread use the word "deserve." Right now the rule is simple. Win and you're in, and after that whatever of the 16 spots are left over are decided by points. If you don't meet that criteria, you don't deserve to be in. Everyone knows the rules...everyone plays by them. Bubba/Ross don't deserve anything. Harrison does. He did what was asked.
 
Allenbaba said:
Yeah, I mean, you won't ever satisfy everyone. But the idea that anyone can win and get in gives more teams hope than the one or two who get screwed by it a season. And when you choose to sponsor someone like Bubba, you know going in making the playoffs is a toss up. So him not making the playoffs is hardly getting screwed. Do Bubba/Ross really "deserve" a chance to win a championship? They're not even in the top 10 in points. They should be allowed to win a championship, but not Harrison? Is there honestly even a difference come November...?

And it's funny to me how many people in this thread use the word "deserve." Right now the rule is simple. Win and you're in, and after that whatever of the 16 spots are left over are decided by points. If you don't meet that criteria, you don't deserve to be in. Everyone knows the rules...everyone plays by them. Bubba/Ross don't deserve anything. Harrison does. He did what was asked.
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I want you to know I always enjoy your insights and inside knowledge and really appreciate your willingness the share your thoughts here at RF.

It would be crazy to be in
full agreement om everything
 
Greg said:
I want you to know I always enjoying your insights and inside knowledge and really appreciate your willingness the share your thoughts here at RF.

It would be crazy to be in
full agreement om everything
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For sure! I love the current playoff system (for many reasons) and definitely come at it with bias. I can totally understand why people might not love it, or all aspects of it.
 
Allenbaba said:
For sure! I love the current playoff system (for many reasons) and definitely come at it with bias. I can totally understand why people might not love it, or all aspects of it.
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I'm not sure what it would look like but I would like the playoff system to be tweaked to that of the old chase format.

Keep everything the same...reduce win and you're in to top 25 cut off, and eliminate eliminations. 10 race mini season.
 
Racing can be a lot like life...

...Reaching a concensus on not liking something is the easy very achievable part.

The hard part is coming to a concensus on something that is an acceptable alternative.

It is very very possibile that any well intended tweaks and adjustments would be just as disappointing.
 
Allenbaba said:
Yeah, I mean, you won't ever satisfy everyone. But the idea that anyone can win and get in gives more teams hope than the one or two who get screwed by it a season. And when you choose to sponsor someone like Bubba, you know going in making the playoffs is a toss up. So him not making the playoffs is hardly getting screwed. Do Bubba/Ross really "deserve" a chance to win a championship? They're not even in the top 10 in points. They should be allowed to win a championship, but not Harrison? Is there honestly even a difference come November...?

And it's funny to me how many people in this thread use the word "deserve." Right now the rule is simple. Win and you're in, and after that whatever of the 16 spots are left over are decided by points. If you don't meet that criteria, you don't deserve to be in. Everyone knows the rules...everyone plays by them. Bubba/Ross don't deserve anything. Harrison does. He did what was asked.
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IMO a driver like Bubba Wallace has had 25 chances to either win a race or point himself in to the playoffs. If you can’t take a JGR-23xi car and put it in the playoffs something is bad wrong somewhere.
 
IMO there are things Nascar could do in order to make the series more like a sport. However I think the networks would prefer to have things the way they are as they believe gimmicks like overtime, win and your in, plus multiple restarts are what viewers want. I don’t think anyone really knows what NASCAR fans want though. 😆
 
AlTerego said:
IMO a driver like Bubba Wallace has had 25 chances to either win a race or point himself in to the playoffs. If you can’t take a JGR-23xi car and put it in the playoffs something is bad wrong somewhere.
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How about Wallace deserves to be in 17th or so place and he gets to race the rest of the races to try to improve his position like all of the others should be doing in my opinion. Say he doesn't make the cut off but has a couple of top 5's and maybe a win in the remaining races? 17th is as high as he can go with this playoff nonsense after they fudge up the points.
 
StandOnIt said:
How about Wallace deserves to be in 17th or so place and he gets to race the rest of the races to try to improve his position like all of the others should be doing in my opinion. Say he doesn't make the cut off but has a couple of top 5's and maybe a win in the remaining races? 17th is as high as he can go with this playoff nonsense after they fudge up the points.
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Kyle Larson ended up missing the 2014 playoffs and was like 18th in full season points going into the final 10 races, but ran so well in that stretch he would’ve moved all the way up to 8th. It’s a shame that the final 10 races don’t really mean much for anyone outside the playoffs but I don’t see a good way to fix that.
 
Efisher131 said:
Kyle Larson ended up missing the 2014 playoffs and was like 18th in full season points going into the final 10 races, but ran so well in that stretch he would’ve moved all the way up to 8th. It’s a shame that the final 10 races don’t really mean much for anyone outside the playoffs but I don’t see a good way to fix that.
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Surely they could apply another band aid. Ta ta ta dah! "Bonus Car". The highest points car that didn't make the "cut off" after 7 races or whatever gets into the next to the last round. This would have saved Larson, the gerbils would go nuts and there they go....playoffs . I probably shouldn't give them any ideas lol.
 
AlTerego said:
IMO a driver like Bubba Wallace has had 25 chances to either win a race or point himself in to the playoffs. If you can’t take a JGR-23xi car and put it in the playoffs something is bad wrong somewhere.
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I mean he is sitting 13th in points right now. If wasn’t for Michigan wreck he probably be ahead of Chris B right now.

I think it’s wild that Harrison is still 34th in points even with the win. Hopefully NASCAR will make changes for next year because it is stupid that you can go 24 races without getting a single top 5 or top 10 or lead a single lap and still be in the playoff. The one lap that Harrison lead is the last lap at Daytona 😂
 
Efisher131 said:
It’s a shame that the final 10 races don’t really mean much for anyone outside the playoffs but I don’t see a good way to fix that.
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Easy. Don't give the playoff teams that big honkin' glob of points they get after the regular season to separate them from the rest of the pack. Roll any playoff points into the season total, flag eligible teams as championship contenders regardless of points standing, and continue to race with normal points earned. If you're 32nd, eligible, and win four races, you da man. If not, you wind up wherever your earned points get you.
 
My new bold prediction: Harrison Burton, having finally sniffed success at the highest level, suddenly goes on a historic, unlikely tear, winning multiple races and becomes the 2024 Cup champion for the Wood Brothers before returning to his Xbox for 2025. All thanks to "win and you're in" making it all possible.
 
hmmm298 said:
My new bold prediction: Harrison Burton, having finally sniffed success at the highest level, suddenly goes on a historic, unlikely tear, winning multiple races and becomes the 2024 Cup champion for the Wood Brothers before returning to his Xbox for 2025. All thanks to "win and you're in" making it all possible.
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Licking the toad bellies again, are we?
 
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LOL!! People are making a big deal out of nothing. The rule is NOT merely "win and you're in".

To qualify for the playoffs a win is not enough - you must also be within the top 30 in points.

Burton has not qualified for the playoffs, despite winning at Daytona. With that win he is still only 34th in points, 517 below the playoff cut.

Look at NASCAR's official website for the driver points, and who are the currently eligible drivers to make the Chase. Don't rely upon unknowing or sensationalizing third parties. NBC misreported Burton's impact upon the playoff standings at the end of the race. Apparently they did not research the rules before they tried to "report first" on "an amazing feel-good development".

It is true that a new winner could make the playoffs - but only if he also accumulates enough points by the cutoff to be within the top 30 drivers. So there is no "unfair" poor performing driver leapfrogging over better performing drivers into the playoffs. Burton will have to pretty much repeat his Daytona performance at Darlington to have any chance at making the playoffs, while several others already ahead of him will have to have bad finishes.


Yeah, it is fun to imagine all kinds of fantasy scenarios - but don't let them get you all fired up when all they are are fantasies.
 
IMG_2112.jpeg
 
gone said:
To qualify for the playoffs a win is not enough - you must also be within the top 30 in points.
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Yeah, I thought that too, until a few months ago. It turns out the 'top 30' requirement was dropped a few years back.

So I know where you're coming from, man; I've been there myself. But the first step in resolving a problem is acknowledging there IS a problem. Not doing so isn't just hurting you; it hurts those around you on the forum. Please, Google for a local T30A * chapter, and I'm here for you if you need a mentor. There's a way out, if you'll just ask for help.

* Top 30 Anonymous, a 12-step program for those who want support finding their way back to the current rulebook.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Yeah, I thought that too, until a few months ago. It turns out the 'top 30' requirement was dropped a few years back.

So I know where you're coming from, man; I've been there myself. But the first step in resolving a problem is acknowledging there IS a problem. Not doing so isn't just hurting you; it hurts those around you on the forum. Please, Google for a local T30A * chapter, and I'm here for you if you need a mentor. There's a way out, if you'll just ask for help.

* Top 30 Anonymous, a 12-step program for those who want support finding their way back to the current rulebook.
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Don't go over there by yourself, take another "win and you are in is for everybody" member with you. You know what the say, there is strength in numbers. You know what can happen when you are by yourself and an it's "only top 30's" individual. You'll be talking about the good old top 30 only days and before you know it, your hooked also.
 
I don't necessarily agree with this take but it's a compelling argument either way:

sportsnaut.com

Opinion: There are flaws but NASCAR's playoff system gets this part right

Every moment matters when a win is so transformative
sportsnaut.com sportsnaut.com

Every sport which utilizes a playoff format ends up with teams that probably didn't belong in the playoffs making it in and teams that deserved to be there going home. And you never know what's going to happen.

And fans DID want a points system to emphasize winning more going back to the mid-2000s when the Chase was implemented. When Jamie McMurray won at Daytona AND Indianapolis in 2010 and still missed the Chase, there was a lot of commotion about that.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
I don't necessarily agree with this take but it's a compelling argument either way:

sportsnaut.com

Opinion: There are flaws but NASCAR's playoff system gets this part right

Every moment matters when a win is so transformative
sportsnaut.com sportsnaut.com

Every sport which utilizes a playoff format ends up with teams that probably didn't belong in the playoffs making it in and teams that deserved to be there going home. And you never know what's going to happen.

And fans DID want a points system to emphasize winning more going back to the mid-2000s when the Chase was implemented. When Jamie McMurray won at Daytona AND Indianapolis in 2010 and still missed the Chase, there was a lot of commotion about that.
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Jamie McMurray didn't make a ripple. The ratings were falling and Brian France and NBC came up with this mess we are in today. Parts of Game shows and stick and ball is what we got. People are getting tired of the nonsense. It hasn't helped the ratings, better racing has.
 
I don't agree with "win and you're in" but these are the rules as they stand.

I like Bubba Wallace but I don't think the 23 team deserves to be there. They just haven't been able to put a complete race together and seal the deal. Of the three things it takes to win, they always have two of them, but never the third, and it's never the same thing. Sometimes the driver and the car are great and the crew blows it. Sometimes the car and crew are great and the driver blows it. Sometimes the crew and driver are great but the car is not.

As for Ross Chastain, Trackhouse has struggled as a whole ever since Rick Hendrick got pissed off over how he raced Kyle Larson at Darlington. Ross isn't as aggressive and I think that's hurting them.

Kyle Busch ... this has all been litigated all season long. One problem I've always had with Kyle Busch is how he often just gives up when things are going bad. He did that a lot early in his career. I hate to sound like Jeff Burton, but every point matters, and giving up on a race will always come back to bite you in the ass. I wonder how many points he's left on track this year by just giving up.

If your season comes down to having to win at Daytona, and Daytona being the only shot you have to win, you're already toast.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
My memory might be fading, but I vividly remember watching Kevin Harvick win the inaugural playoff championship on ESPN.
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Which one/year was that? This mess has been going on since 2004, with band aid after band aid added. Maybe you could go by the added drivers version, There was 10, then it went to 12, and now it is 16. Or maybe game show elimination rounds. Those came about in 2016.

The publicly stated purpose for the NASCAR playoff system was to make the NASCAR mid-season more competitive, and increase fan interest and television ratings. FAIL.
 
StandOnIt said:
Which one/year was that? This mess has been going on since 2004, with band aid after band aid added. Maybe you could go by the added drivers version, There was 10, then it went to 12, and now it is 16. Or maybe game show elimination rounds. Those came about in 2016.

The publicly stated purpose for the NASCAR playoff system was to make the NASCAR mid-season more competitive, and increase fan interest and television ratings. FAIL.
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The eliminations came in 2014, NOT 2016.

The playoff format has succeeded in making the mid-season races more competitive and more intense. They matter more than they did in the old Chase for the Championship system and they're definitely more interesting than they were during the pre-Chase format.

And with the current format and stages, those stage wins matter so much that drivers are gunning for them, and drivers are racing hard for that Regular Season Championship too. That Regular Season Championship saved MTJ's ass in the early rounds of the playoffs. The accumulation of playoff points paid dividends for both Kevin Harvick and MTJ numerous times.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The eliminations came in 2014, NOT 2016.

The playoff format has succeeded in making the mid-season races more competitive and more intense. They matter more than they did in the old Chase for the Championship system and they're definitely more interesting than they were during the pre-Chase format.

And with the current format and stages, those stage wins matter so much that drivers are gunning for them, and drivers are racing hard for that Regular Season Championship too. That Regular Season Championship saved MTJ's ass in the early rounds of the playoffs. The accumulation of playoff points paid dividends for both Kevin Harvick and MTJ numerous times.
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Game show points. Ratings haven't increased, gimmicks have.
 
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