Cup RACE thread: Martinsville

Fined for voting, great look Nascar! 🤣
Missed his obligation today.
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Spotter22 said:
I'm putting the blame on the teams, not NASCAR.
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Well, I started to post, "It's NASCAR's fault. If there are no eliminations and cutoffs, this doesn't happen."

Then I wondered if similar things would happen under either a season-long or playoff 'total points' system. After what we saw Sunday, I don't see why a finale couldn't also be affected.

Non-playoff drivers affecting the championship has been there all along. Mostly it's been unintentional; say, a non-playoff driver accidentally wrecking a playoff car. Occasionally it's been intentional (see Kenseth-Logano). Mostly it's been to the detriment of the playoff car, not to its benefit. On the occasions when action was taken to benefit another car, it was by drivers from the same owner. This time we saw TWO blatant attempts to help teams advance where the cars involved were from different owners with nothing in common but the brand. But other than the level of interference, how does this differ from what we've seen at Daytona and Talladega for decades? At least there the drivers often toss that nonsense out in the final laps and go with who they worked best with.

I guess NASCAR could score the playoff teams separately from the others, but that wouldn't prevent blocking and the scoring is complicated enough already. Nobody wants to see races with just the playoff cars. Maybe send the non-playoff cars to the garage after 80% or 90% of the race is completed, and finish with just the playoff cars?

I'm not sure how NASCAR can rein in the manufacturers. Taking away wind tunnel time would punish all teams from that manufacturer whether or not they were involved. I don't recall seeing this in IndyCar with Chevy and Honda. F1 has only two cars per manufacturer and it's understood one of each is the primary car. Similarly, IMSA WeatherTech has so many different manufacturers that there are hardly enough of each to effectively collude. I'm not familiar enough with other series to make comparisons.
 
Chevy f***ed it all up Sunday night. If they're not 2 wide blatantly blocking for and not passing the 24, the 23 never has pulls his stunt and the 20 never wall rides. Just my opinion 😇
 
jaqua19 said:
This is nonsense. I've been vocally critical here of him. And plenty of fans criticize his mistakes. Here as well. But this is what I'm talking about.

Elliott fans just have this completely unreasonable habit of criticizing or having issues with Larson fans, and that attitude is NOT reciprocated.

It feels very much like "Larson fans aren't welcome to HMS"

I sincerely think people generalize his fans to justify frustration. This attitude you discuss just doesn't show up here man.
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Just saying what I have seen in general. You are basically seeing the same thing in reverse so maybe we are both either a little bias or more sensitive to it. We are both reasonable people so I know neither of us are making it up. Since Larson came to HMS I constantly see Larson fans trying to make the case of how much better he is than Chase. If you criticized him and I missed it that's my bad but either way I think the whole debate is stupid. I have said it a hundred times. Larson is the better driver (and should be considering the experience/years he has on Chase) but they are very close IMO. Larson had one magical year in 2021 where everything just went right. Outside of all the wins her got that year though, he and Chase's stats are remarkably similar. Their top 5 percentage is virtually identical and yes Larson has an edge on wins and while I know we can't "ignore" 2021, that magical year is where that gap came from and he has some wins at Chase expense where he did Chase wrong like Fontana and the Glen and then there's the Bristol win that Chase handed to him much to Harvick's dismay. Plus Chase lost the Roval last season for one of the worst timed cautions you will ever see. I know the "what-if" game can be played all day and Larson has left some wins on the table too (mostly of his dong) but all I am saying is the wins could easily be a lot closer regardless of how great Larson is. Plus I'd be comfortable to wager Chase would have closed that gap some too if not for the injury last season. All in all though, they are 2 great drivers in their prime and should be fun to watch for the next 10+/- years. As a Chase fan I understand that Larson will probably get more wins than Chase but I am a fan of smooth consistency - that's why I rooted for Bill and now Chase.
 
Daytripper said:
He could have voted all day or in the last two weeks even, but had to choose to vote at the time of his media day commitment? That's NASCAR's fault?
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That's great that Majeski voted, but when you bite the hand that is feeding you and miss one of their productions, and cost Nascar and TV money? That is a double whammy.
 
This is an interesting clip. Keselowski runs down the pack had no idea why the 77 who was two laps down was racing so hard to keep Kez boxed in and not able to pass. Wallace and Bell doing their dance show up at the end. It looks like Hocevar was in on the "fix" also.

 
Chase Fan 79 said:
Just saying what I have seen in general. You are basically seeing the same thing in reverse so maybe we are both either a little bias or more sensitive to it. We are both reasonable people so I know neither of us are making it up. Since Larson came to HMS I constantly see Larson fans trying to make the case of how much better he is than Chase. If you criticized him and I missed it that's my bad but either way I think the whole debate is stupid. I have said it a hundred times. Larson is the better driver (and should be considering the experience/years he has on Chase) but they are very close IMO. Larson had one magical year in 2021 where everything just went right. Outside of all the wins her got that year though, he and Chase's stats are remarkably similar. Their top 5 percentage is virtually identical and yes Larson has an edge on wins and while I know we can't "ignore" 2021, that magical year is where that gap came from and he has some wins at Chase expense where he did Chase wrong like Fontana and the Glen and then there's the Bristol win that Chase handed to him much to Harvick's dismay. Plus Chase lost the Roval last season for one of the worst timed cautions you will ever see. I know the "what-if" game can be played all day and Larson has left some wins on the table too (mostly of his dong) but all I am saying is the wins could easily be a lot closer regardless of how great Larson is. Plus I'd be comfortable to wager Chase would have closed that gap some too if not for the injury last season. All in all though, they are 2 great drivers in their prime and should be fun to watch for the next 10+/- years. As a Chase fan I understand that Larson will probably get more wins than Chase but I am a fan of smooth consistency - that's why I rooted for Bill and now Chase.
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This is really the root of this. So let's just agree to agree and disagree lol
 
Dr_B_UNC said:
I'd be very, very pleased if that's how it turns out.
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I am optimistic that Chase will turn out better than Matt stats-wise. Even with only winning one race over the past 2 seasons, Chase's winning percentage still sits slightly higher than Matt's as Chase is 5.9% and Matt's is just a tick under 5.6%. Granted Kenseth has a much larger sample size but that's also with Chase winning only one race in his last 60 starts which I really think will improve next season. Kenseth's top 5% is 26.1% and Chase's is quite a bit higher at 32.4% Top 10 percentage - Matt 47.5% and Chase 53%.

One stat that is simply jarring to me is that Matt's first full-time season came at the same age Chase is RIGHT NOW at 28 years old so if Matt had started earlier who really knows what could have been. Also I am sure Matt would have had more titles if the format was not changed. It seemed like this happened right as he was peaking and did not suit his style well at all - Kind of like what Chase is going through now with the next-gen car.

The ultimate irony here is that Matt got his first cup start subbing for none other than Chase's father.
 
RaceCritter said:
I’d love to see a Blaney Logano shoot out at the end of Phoenix with no Byron in sight.
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I guess as an HMS guy I need to pull for Byron but I cringe to see all the "look how much better he is than Chase" crap if he wins a title. Regardless of what happens Sunday, Willie B is a great driver but let's be real - His season started out amazing and really tapered off and has been not much to write home about since winning 3 races early. I don't see winning a championship in this format in the way he barley squeaked into the final 4 changing that much in the big picture that while Chase has a hard time getting those elusive wins right now, Byron struggles to put an entire season together.
 
Logano would work winning this joke also. He has the absolute worst record of the four. He would be like in 12th place in some points scoring systems.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
I guess as an HMS guy I need to pull for Byron but I cringe to see all the "look how much better he is than Chase" crap if he wins a title. Regardless of what happens Sunday, Willie B is a great driver but let's be real - His season started out amazing and really tapered off and has been not much to write home about since winning 3 races early. I don't see winning a championship in this format in the way he barley squeaked into the final 4 changing that much in the big picture that while Chase has a hard time getting those elusive wins right now, Byron struggles to put an entire season together.
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I don't think Byron is there. I think last year his wins were very opportunistic, so it doesn't really surprise me to see the well dry up. Byron is very good, but I don't think he's ready to take that leap.

I'm all on board with Blaney going back to back, which I think is what's going to happen.


Dr_B_UNC said:
I'd be very, very pleased if that's how it turns out.
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It's extremely likely.

Chase Fan 79 said:
I am optimistic that Chase will turn out better than Matt stats-wise. Even with only winning one race over the past 2 seasons, Chase's winning percentage still sits slightly higher than Matt's as Chase is 5.9% and Matt's is just a tick under 5.6%. Granted Kenseth has a much larger sample size but that's also with Chase winning only one race in his last 60 starts which I really think will improve next season. Kenseth's top 5% is 26.1% and Chase's is quite a bit higher at 32.4% Top 10 percentage - Matt 47.5% and Chase 53%.

One stat that is simply jarring to me is that Matt's first full-time season came at the same age Chase is RIGHT NOW at 28 years old so if Matt had started earlier who really knows what could have been. Also I am sure Matt would have had more titles if the format was not changed. It seemed like this happened right as he was peaking and did not suit his style well at all - Kind of like what Chase is going through now with the next-gen car.

The ultimate irony here is that Matt got his first cup start subbing for none other than Chase's father.
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That's what it was like then. Kenseth was 28, Stewart was 28, Johnson was 26. Hell, Carl Edwards was super young at 24.

I think that's why those guys did so well right off the bat. They were older, more experienced and just came into the cup series far more "cup ready" than these younger guys did.

Jeff Gordon taught teams they can invest in young generational talents right off the bat.

Kyle Busch taught teams that they can invest in children without development.

And now we have these young kids being fed through developmental systems - they're cup ready, but they're not winning cup races ready.

I think 1-2 championships, and 35-40 wins is reasonable for Chase. And that's what we would have gotten with Kenseth. His 2013 breakout year at JGR showed how good he is - as if people forgot, he was already a champion.
 
jaqua19 said:
I don't think Byron is there. I think last year his wins were very opportunistic, so it doesn't really surprise me to see the well dry up. Byron is very good, but I don't think he's ready to take that leap.

I'm all on board with Blaney going back to back, which I think is what's going to happen.




It's extremely likely.



That's what it was like then. Kenseth was 28, Stewart was 28, Johnson was 26. Hell, Carl Edwards was super young at 24.

I think that's why those guys did so well right off the bat. They were older, more experienced and just came into the cup series far more "cup ready" than these younger guys did.

Jeff Gordon taught teams they can invest in young generational talents right off the bat.

Kyle Busch taught teams that they can invest in children without development.

And now we have these young kids being fed through developmental systems - they're cup ready, but they're not winning cup races ready.

I think 1-2 championships, and 35-40 wins is reasonable for Chase. And that's what we would have gotten with Kenseth. His 2013 breakout year at JGR showed how good he is - as if people forgot, he was already a champion.
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I know it was time for Bell to have a cup ride but always felt that Kenseth got the short end of the stick and should have been able to race longer in that seat.
 
I'm a bit amazed at how often Matt's name is being mentioned in this thread as a standard for consistency. I always compared his style with David Pearson.
 
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