23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

StandOnIt said:
Considering what their anti-trust issues are, it sounds to me like they want be able to split from the series and they want everything handed to them so they can do both. Race Nascar and wherever they want using Nascar's car and tracks and facilities.

Anti-trust issues.
1. Teams cannot race elsewhere
2. Teams cannot choose their own race car parts and suppliers
3. Tracks cannot hold other similar race events
4. NASCAR purchased competing race tracks (ISC) and race series (ARCA)
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So, do you see the potential here as something similar? Sounds like it could be.....
 
Conover said:
Revman, I think that is my greatest fear. It’s easy for some fans to figuratively say “NASCAR is all wrong, they’ve got tons of money, so I hope those teams win this a stick it to the man!”. But the money in this sport HAS LIMITS for everyone. TV and sponsorship money is the largest chunk by far, with racetrack revenues from paying fans bringing up the rear. However this plays out, a significant loss by NASCAR will affect the sport. We don’t know how yet, but weakened or fractured racing organizations ultimately reflect back to the sport and fans.
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I was so deep into CART at the time of the split. I had tickets next to a great guy named Barry, and he said the series was going in the tank. I wouldn't believe it. I mean CART was F1 level of polish and production at the time (F1 wasn't what it was now). The next season, with spec Coswrorths was a gut punch. Nobody came...the vibe was gone. Devastating.

...but it takes two to Tango.....figure this **** out. Fans will be the losers. The rich guys will still be rich. Do they care? We'll find out.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
I get that.. but also the absence of evidence is not evidence.

I'm probably wrong. Doesn't really matter though. Maybe I'm not. Maybe sometimes I bring up certain talking points just to make conversation.

The main thing that is important for me in all of this is pretty simple.. if the 22 Team Penske car is on track and I'm able to watch nascar races from home I'll be happy with whatever they have going on behind the scenes. It's none of my business really. If this doesn't cripple the sport idc what happens.

Also I have zero sympathy for these team owners complaining about their financial situations. They're all multi millionaires who could decide to disappear from racing tomorrow and live on an island somewhere for the rest of their lives and we wouldn't even notice they were gone.
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Oh i agree it’s not , i just was giving a counterpoint since you wanted to assume it meant they didn’t want to go. There’s always plenty of possibilities. Other people to think about ya know? Maybe the person can’t go out to eat with friends, because they got no one to watch their kids. So they have to think about the kids. To put that in perspective for the team, maybe they didn’t want to rock the boat and risk putting people out of a job, or hurt sponsors. It’s also always possible that yeah teams didn’t have a problem with it. I think it’s silly to assume either way. But I forgot it til I read a little bit longer, but our little insider here, who has shown to be really reliable, he did say that they were teams rooting for 23 and FRM, that weighs a lot and makes me think that it’s a good chance teams wanted to join them but felt they couldn’t risk it.
 
Revman said:
So, do you see the potential here as something similar? Sounds like it could be.....
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It does to me also. If you could make other parts for the car, it could race in something else, a different class or organization/series. Forcing Nascar to open up their tracks to another competitive series opens up another door.
 
StandOnIt said:
It does to me also. If you could make other parts for the car, it could race in something else, a different class or organization/series. Forcing Nascar to open up their tracks to another competitive series opens up another door.
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Oh ****. I remember at the time of the CART/IRL split wishing that open wheel was more like NASCAR so this couldn't happen. Seriously, Orevicz's book....the egos destroyed that series.
 
Revman said:
Oh ****. I remember at the time of the CART/IRL split wishing that open wheel was more like NASCAR so this couldn't happen. Seriously, Orevicz's book....the egos destroyed that series.
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It would be pretty simple to do if they can get ahold of the car, even more so if they can be allowed to race on tracks that Nascar owns.
 
StandOnIt said:
It does to me also. If you could make other parts for the car, it could race in something else, a different class or organization/series. Forcing Nascar to open up their tracks to another competitive series opens up another door.
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You know who it really opens a door to? Indycar, by forcing NASCAR to negotiate with them in good faith when it comes to dates, sponsors, etc.
 
Blaze said:
Oh i agree it’s not , i just was giving a counterpoint since you wanted to assume it meant they didn’t want to go. There’s always plenty of possibilities. Other people to think about ya know? Maybe the person can’t go out to eat with friends, because they got no one to watch their kids. So they have to think about the kids. To put that in perspective for the team, maybe they didn’t want to rock the boat and risk putting people out of a job, or hurt sponsors. It’s also always possible that yeah teams didn’t have a problem with it. I think it’s silly to assume either way. But I forgot it til I read a little bit longer, but our little insider here, who has shown to be really reliable, he did say that they were teams rooting for 23 and FRM, that weighs a lot and makes me think that it’s a good chance teams wanted to join them but felt they couldn’t risk it.
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Yeah I do want to point out that I received information after saying that that I had not up to that point. It seems the other teams are in fact more on board than it seemed.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Yeah I do want to point out that I received information after saying that that I had not up to that point. It seems the other teams are in fact more on board than it seemed.
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Yeah I saw that as i was getting caught up.

Whatever makes things better for fans is what I hope for, if that’s things being made better for the teams, that’s what I want. Which is probably more likely what the better outcome would be in my opinion.
 
Blaze said:
Yeah I saw that as i was getting caught up.

Whatever makes things better for fans is what I hope for, if that’s things being made better for the teams, that’s what I want. Which is probably more likely what the better outcome would be in my opinion.
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Absolutely agree. In the end all we really want is some good racing. No matter what opinion any of us have about any of this. We all share that trait.
 
“ The motion for 23XI Racing and Front Row Motorsports to post an injunction bond is to ensure prize money (from racing as charter teams) would be reimbursed in the future if NASCAR wins the case. The amount of the bond was sealed.”

racer.com

NASCAR to file appeal of injunction ruling; asking for emergency partial stay and bond

NASCAR will file an appeal of the preliminary injunction that was granted to 23XI Racing and Front Row Motorsports. But in addition to the appeal, NASCAR has filed additional motions pertaining to …
racer.com racer.com

If NASCAR “wins” the court case, they’re saying they’ll demand repayment of the charter portion (65%) of all monies earned at every race by teams racing with the injunction in place.

It’ll be interesting to see what the court has to say about this. I’ll go out on a limb and predict another judicial smackdown.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Absolutely agree. In the end all we really want is some good racing. No matter what opinion any of us have about any of this. We all share that trait.
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Wishful thinking. I think many fans are around for the hope that Nascar will burn. I was amazed when I first got on social media years ago, and I continue to be so lol.
 
aunty dive said:
“ The motion for 23XI Racing and Front Row Motorsports to post an injunction bond is to ensure prize money (from racing as charter teams) would be reimbursed in the future if NASCAR wins the case. The amount of the bond was sealed.”

racer.com

NASCAR to file appeal of injunction ruling; asking for emergency partial stay and bond

NASCAR will file an appeal of the preliminary injunction that was granted to 23XI Racing and Front Row Motorsports. But in addition to the appeal, NASCAR has filed additional motions pertaining to …
racer.com racer.com

If NASCAR “wins” the court case, they’re saying they’ll demand repayment of the charter portion (65%) of all monies earned at every race by teams racing with the injunction in place.

It’ll be interesting to see what the court has to say about this. I’ll go out on a limb and predict another judicial smackdown.
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Who knows how any judge will rule on this, but, IF NASCAR wins, they SHOULD get reimbursed for overpayment. Thats because in this scenario, the court FORCED the organization to allow plaintiffs to gain charter dollars when they never signed a charter agreement.
 
I thought the injunction temporarily granted the 2 teams full use of their 4 charters without requiring signature. That’s what NASCAR has appealed.

Why would financial compensation be the only charter privilege revoked if NASCAR were to prevail on the antitrust issues?
 
aunty dive said:
Why would financial compensation be the only charter privilege revoked if NASCAR were to prevail on the antitrust issues?
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Financial compensation would likely be the only charter privilege revoked because it is the most directly related to the antitrust claims. The other charter privileges, such as a guaranteed spot in the field and certain protections, are not necessarily tied to the antitrust allegations and are more related to the overall structure of the charter system.
 
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The court didn’t put any qualifiers on a particular aspect of charter advantage, financial or otherwise. NASCAR’s motion for bonds to secure any “potential overpayments” is their own invention, as is the concept of overpayment itself. The two teams are currently empowered to temporarily conduct their businesses as per the full terms of the 4 charters they’re holding, without signature, while being permitted to ignore the clause Judge Bell suggested contravenes antitrust law.

Race payouts are not the only direct financial benefit of the charter system. Guaranteed starting spots have the potential to pay off handsomely for some and not at all for someone less fortunate.

If 41 or 2 teams show up at Daytona and one of the 4 chartered cars being discussed has a mechanical and can’t take time, it’s still in the show. Somebody else is going home. Assume the team that gets in by charter rules affects repairs and the driver improves his position from 40th to 25th at the checkers. The few points earned by that car on that day have the potential to alter the outcome of the regular season championship and / or the playoffs and ultimately the final points standings at season’s end. If NASCAR wants the extra money back, shouldn’t they have to recalculate “unearned” points and subsequent payouts?

Rewriting history is a very messy business and always comes with unintended consequences.
 
Freaking amazing....The Indy Split by John Orevicz......same freaking issues.....the car.....the money......the quality of racing......I have been reading this book for the last year....yeah, I know.....I hate reading, so it takes me awhile......I am glad it did....puts a new perspective on what Denny et al. are doing. This is some risky ****.....

Also of note....MY Toyotas bolted from open wheel according to the book because of the bull**** that went on.....this is arguable......I think that IndyCar could never find the balance between cost containment and engineering intrigue......Which makes the Next Gen piece in addition to the spec Truck formula very interesting to me from Toyota's NASCAR involvement perspective. WE seem to be okay with that.....but David Wilson has retired.....I wonder what might happen next. What was very telling in the book, however, was that David pointed out that after WE won the 500 in 2003, neither Japan nor OUR Board of Directors could have given a ****. It is also my understanding that as WE were coming home from Indy that year, WE realized that there must be a better way to infuse OUR brand into racing....hence, NASCAR as it was the most popular series after the Indy debacle. Lots of money spent on nothing from a move the needle perspective in Indy....Bottom line Denny et al. wins, and we get into an arms race with owners fighting for control and money.....hmmmmmmmmmm........
 
Revman said:
after WE won the 500 in 2003, neither Japan nor OUR Board of Directors could have given a ****.
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Interesting. According to media coverage, both Japan and Honda celebrated big time when Takuma Sato scored his two I500 wins. Maybe the lack of enthusiasm in '03 was because Gil de Ferran wasn't Japanese? Or maybe IndyCar is a more popular series in Japan than it was then?

But yeah, if the board doesn't care, there's not going to be much support for being there.
 
StandOnIt said:
SHR would either have to field teams (which they say they aren't prepared to do) or sell/lease them to someone else.
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Okay, stick with me. SHR leases the two charters, one to a Ford team, one to a Toyota. Say, the Woods and Legacy, for example. Those teams then 'field' the cars in name only. They're really being 100% fielded behind the scenes by FRM and 23XI respectively. :XXROFL:
 
Can we please stop comparing this to the Indycar split of 1995? Nothing about this court case is similar. I know that was the most impactful conflict involving race promotion during my lifetime, but this is like #4 or #5 now overall for those and they all have critical differences that make them unlike each other. There's been absolutely zero indication whatsoever from any of the participants in these legal proceedings that they desire to have a breakaway competitor series.
 
aunty dive said:
NASCAR and the France family have had complete and total control of the decision making process at stock car racing’s top level for 75 years.

That’s a long time. Adjusting to a new normal will be difficult for them.
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They finally ****** around with someone who got the same **** you money they do.
 
virtualbalboa said:
Can we please stop comparing this to the Indycar split of 1995? Nothing about this court case is similar. I know that was the most impactful conflict involving race promotion during my lifetime, but this is like #4 or #5 now overall for those and they all have critical differences that make them unlike each other. There's been absolutely zero indication whatsoever from any of the participants in these legal proceedings that they desire to have a breakaway competitor series.
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“We” can but we probably won’t.

It’s correct to say there isn’t a split on the table (yet) but the situations are similar in a couple of significant aspects.

Chaos, uncertainty and financial instability are chief among them. Those things make fans, broadcast and media partners, sponsors, team owners, drivers, and team members / employees nervous.
 
Kessler delivering the goods. That’ll hurt more when NASCAR had to pay his firm’s fees.



( add to above) … the Court refers to the full substance of its Order in support of its decision and disagrees that the Court’s ruling is in error."

Judge also says the SHR charter transfer to Front Row must go through, but 23XI's request must be considered separately on its own merits because it wasn't included in the original filing (but said he'll look at it ASAP).
 
aunty dive said:
“We” can but we probably won’t.

It’s correct to say there isn’t a split on the table (yet) but the situations are similar in a couple of significant aspects.

Chaos, uncertainty and financial instability are chief among them. Those things make fans, broadcast and media partners, sponsors, team owners, drivers, and team members / employees nervous.
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Any of these conflicts is likely to have some degree of similarity between them simply because we're talking about people being upset over their share of the revenue from watching cars go vroom. I get that part. However, the aggrieved party that caused the 1995 split was not a 23XI or Jenkins parallel, and that parallel doesn't exist in NASCAR because NASCAR owns Daytona and thus the Daytona 500. The argument being made by the plaintiffs is specifically that they can't do anything comparable elsewhere. The concerns I hear are as legitimate as "If they want to race, they should be expected to build a billion dollar real estate portfolio of sports facilities first".

Being real: Does anyone have any actual fears that are based in reality from anything that's actually happened, or are people just really afraid of any kind of change?
 
You’re reading way too much into what I said.

People’s lives were / are being impacted in both cases. To me, that matters more than who owns what expensive real estate and who’s allowed to use it.

I will guess that you will continue to see comparisons in this thread. Not everyone is as immersed in this stuff as you and I are.

Merry Christmas. 🍷
 
aunty dive said:
You’re reading way too much into what I said.

People’s lives were / are being impacted in both cases. To me, that matters more than who owns what expensive real estate and who’s allowed to use it.

I will guess that you will continue to see comparisons in this thread. Not everyone is as immersed in this stuff as you and I are.

Merry Christmas. 🍷
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The people whose lives were actually impacted were the people working for FRM and 23XI and they all have jobs today and will be racing with charters in the 2025 season. In concrete, real terms, that is all that we've see the courts actually do. I've seen two groups be actively upset about the court having ruled this way:

1) Individuals who are in the employ of the France family in Daytona because they are told to be upset, and whom will be told to reconcile when the time is right to do so
2) Individuals who also often wind up saying "I don't understand what is happening" in threads about what is happening with regards to NASCAR's charter contracts

If someone is furious and doing a lot of the latter, I mean, it must be nice to not have real issues that you have to make some up. I don't know what that's like though.
 
And this was 100% orchestrated by these teams. Look at the timing of it. SHR announced charters for sale around May 28th. 23XI bought an SHR charter on November 21st, and then filed a lawsuit against NASCAR a week or so later on Oct 2nd. They deliberately did this to get this lawsuit through. This wasn’t normal business practice. This was a scheme to take down Nascar. This is extremely classless and reprehensible.
 
StandOnIt said:
And this was 100% orchestrated by these teams. Look at the timing of it. SHR announced charters for sale around May 28th. 23XI bought an SHR charter on November 21st, and then filed a lawsuit against NASCAR a week or so later on Oct 2nd. They deliberately did this to get this lawsuit through. This wasn’t normal business practice. This was a scheme to take down Nascar. This is extremely classless and reprehensible.
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Beyond the fact that these claims don't make sense, there's also the small fact that NASCAR was still in a negotiating period with the teams and obviously the teams could not enter litigation with NASCAR until there was a conclusion to that.
 
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StandOnIt said:
And this was 100% orchestrated by these teams. Look at the timing of it. SHR announced charters for sale around May 28th. 23XI bought an SHR charter on November 21st, and then filed a lawsuit against NASCAR a week or so later on Oct 2nd. They deliberately did this to get this lawsuit through. This wasn’t normal business practice. This was a scheme to take down Nascar. This is extremely classless and reprehensible.
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The chronology in this post ^ doesn’t line up. Makes responding pointless.
 
aunty dive said:
Kessler delivering the goods. That’ll hurt more when NASCAR had to pay his firm’s fees.



( add to above) … the Court refers to the full substance of its Order in support of its decision and disagrees that the Court’s ruling is in error."

Judge also says the SHR charter transfer to Front Row must go through, but 23XI's request must be considered separately on its own merits because it wasn't included in the original filing (but said he'll look at it ASAP).
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A load of manure is a load of manure.
 
aunty dive said:
The chronology in this post ^ doesn’t line up. Makes responding pointless.
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Even if the chronology was corrected, it wouldn't matter. The charter of SHR that FRM wanted was one which they had agreed upon the transfer in May, yet here we are with their acquisition needing to be pushed through on December 23, 2024 by the judge in the case.
 
StandOnIt said:
And this was 100% orchestrated by these teams. Look at the timing of it. SHR announced charters for sale around May 28th. 23XI bought an SHR charter on November 21st, and then filed a lawsuit against NASCAR a week or so later on Oct 2nd. They deliberately did this to get this lawsuit through. This wasn’t normal business practice. This was a scheme to take down Nascar. This is extremely classless and reprehensible.
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I think it’s pretty normal for litigants to bring a legal action when the date advantages them and not the defendant.

The game is on and it’s not T-Ball.
 
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