23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

I think if Wasserman had found sufficient interest, RTA would have used a tentative schedule as leverage. "We have the teams, we've lined up tracks, we know how to build cars. Why do we need you?"

I infer there wasn't enough interest to make a walkout profitable. Or it was only a negotiating ploy...
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I think if Wasserman had found sufficient interest, RTA would have used a tentative schedule as leverage. "We have the teams, we've lined up tracks, we know how to build cars. Why do we need you?"

I infer there wasn't enough interest to make a walkout profitable. Or it was only a negotiating ploy...
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Anything is possible. The fact that they continued down that road and are suing for just that after two years of negotiations is my question. Could it be for leverage? Could it be for control?
 
aunty dive said:
More of the same from November, 2022. First posted this morning # 2467.

https://racingnews.co/2022/11/30/nascar-teams-could-soon-host-exhibition-races-without-nascar/#

Is this currently relevant?
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StandOnIt said:
What do you think?
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I think the payout to teams for a single Cup Series event is greater than the total payout made to all participants in every SRX show that ever ran.

Starting a fledgling series intended to compete with the behemoth is a sucker’s game.
 
aunty dive said:
I think the payout to teams for a single Cup Series event is greater than the total payout made to all participants in every SRX show that ever ran.

Starting a fledgling series intended to compete with the behemoth is a sucker’s game.
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SRX was used as an example. The part missed on that statement was that another series that was well financed is a completely different story. Where did all of the talent go when the Indycars had their split? They went to the series that paid the most. They went to Nascar. Indycar has never recovered fully IMO.
 
StandOnIt said:
The part missed on that statement was that another series that was well financed is a completely different story.
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I'm still unclear why a well-heeled financer would invest in a new series, given both the difficult path to profitability and the alternative investment options. One could effectively 'lease' the Cup series annually for what MJ make in interest. Indeed, one could completely buy ARCA for less.

A startup stock car series isn't comparable to LIV or F1 tracks. The Middle East oil sheikdoms spend their money to buy respectability at a loss. They don't care they're losing money with no shot at a profit.
 
aunty dive said:
How would a new series compete for teams, cars and drivers without an equivalent $1.1 Billion annual revenue stream derived from broadcasters?
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Easy. Start out part time racing during the week. Pay good money to race, get a TV partner, sell sponsors.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I'm still unclear why a well-heeled financer would invest in a new series, given both the difficult path to profitability and the alternative investment options. One could effectively 'lease' the Cup series annually for what MJ make in interest.

A startup stock car series isn't comparable to LIV or F1 tracks. The Middle East oil sheikdoms spend their money to buy respectability at a loss. They don't care they're losing money with no shot at a profit.
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BTW there are 4 F-1 type tracks in the Middle East.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Yes, but do they make any money? Since they're privately owned, we don't know.

I don’t see what that has to do with starting a new stock car series in North America.
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Well, you didn't read what I posted about who the RTA hired and what and where he investigated for races.

Now in a stunning new development, it appears that the RTA is taking a new approach…


Wasserman U.S. managing director of Will Pleasants told the Sports Business Journal they’ve, “been hired to explore exhibition race opportunities, both domestically and internationally — very exploratory.”
 
StandOnIt said:
Easy. Start out part time racing during the week. Pay good money to race, get a TV partner, sell sponsors.
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If an existing nationally known series and its participating teams have difficulty signing sponsors, what advantages would a new series and teams have in lining up sponsors?
 
StandOnIt said:
Well, you didn't read what I posted about who the RTA hired and what and where he investigated for races.

Now in a stunning new development, it appears that the RTA is taking a new approach…

U.S. managing director of Will Pleasants told the Sports Business Journal they’ve, “been hired to explore exhibition race opportunities, both domestically and internationally — very exploratory.”
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A stunning new development from November, 2022.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
If an existing nationally known series and its participating teams have difficulty signing sponsors, what advantages would a new series and teams have in lining up sponsors?
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Getting way out there with the what if's. You seem convinced that there is no money to do that sort of thing and you may be correct. But I on the other hand continue to look at this below and wonder how all of this is going to play out.

Anti-trust issues.
1. Teams cannot race elsewhere
2. Teams cannot choose their own race car parts and suppliers
3. Tracks cannot hold other similar race events
4. NASCAR purchased competing race tracks (ISC) and race series (ARCA)
 
It's simple just put can in the sentence instead of cannot. That could happen if the teams win on all counts.

Anti-trust issues.
1. Teams cannot race elsewhere
2. Teams cannot choose their own race car parts and suppliers
3. Tracks cannot hold other similar race events
4. NASCAR purchased competing race tracks (ISC) and race series (ARCA)
 
StandOnIt said:
Well, you didn't read what I posted about who the RTA hired and what and where he investigated for races.
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Yes, I did read it. I also noted recalling nothing was released regarding those efforts.

NASCAR had to help with the costs of going to Australia, Japan, and Mexico City. Would those tracks help get the cars over there? Are their oily owners that interested in buying the good will of the stock car fan base? Would potential owners and sponsors in a startup be willing to get in bed with Middle Eastern oil countries? LIV converts lost sponsors.

I think fans would scream like banshees at the notion of stock cars running on road courses in A-Rab countries, regardless of who sanctioned or paid for it. Good luck getting TV coverage or viewers. LIV isn't doing well, but that's not its goal.
 
1blj
StandOnIt said:
It's simple just put can in the sentence instead of cannot. That could happen if the teams win on all counts.
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True, but if plaintiffs' goals were to run stock cars outside of NASCAR, why would they need the NextGen to do it? They could build the previous generation of Cup cars. Many people here say they think X cars or Trucks put on a better show; those could have been used as models.

StandOnIt said:
Start out part time racing during the week. Pay good money to race, get a TV partner, sell sponsors.
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All of these could be done without suing NASCAR. IF there are investors willing to back a new series, why waste resources on negotiations and lawsuits?
 
Just speculation on my part about a competing series (that will never happen).

I would hope and believe that they would be smart enough to avoid running Next Gen cars. More horsepower with less downforce would be the obvious choice, along with getting rid of the low-profile tires and wheels.

I don't think anybody could stop them from running something resembling a Camaro, Mustang, or something similar. Building roll cages would not be stealing technology, and if needed, they could modify them just enough to call it their own design.

But none of that will happen; it would be an incredible risk and a logistical nightmare. It would go down like the football leagues that tried to outdo the NFL.

There will be no split, or divorces. The partners are just having a power struggle, and they will settle before it comes to letting the courts decide.
 
My bottom line is this: if all the teams want is to own their Charters, and the courts say NASCAR must allow that to happen, then teams should be prepared to PAY UP. No matter what the courts determine, one element is absolutely without dispute. The charters were NEVER represented, claimed or legally constructed as PROPERTY that could be in perpetual forever ownership by those teams acquiring the,. They were awarded at the start of the charter system, without compensation, since they were a participation rights model based upon meeting specific criteria as set by NASCAR. The continuation of using charters was always based upon NASCAR’S DESIRE TO USE THE SYSTEM. Teams paid other teams to aquire the rights to using the charter, subject to NASCAR approval. At no time did NASCAR receive compensation for them.

THEREFORE, of teams want to own these permanently, they should have to pay NASCAR, the owner of these, fair market value. Teams wanna be like the NFL? Be prepared to pay for the franchise.
 
Conover said:
My bottom line is this: if all the teams want is to own their Charters, and the courts say NASCAR must allow that to happen, then teams should be prepared to PAY UP. No matter what the courts determine, one element is absolutely without dispute. The charters were NEVER represented, claimed or legally constructed as PROPERTY that could be in perpetual forever ownership by those teams acquiring the,. They were awarded at the start of the charter system, without compensation, since they were a participation rights model based upon meeting specific criteria as set by NASCAR. The continuation of using charters was always based upon NASCAR’S DESIRE TO USE THE SYSTEM. Teams paid other teams to aquire the rights to using the charter, subject to NASCAR approval. At no time did NASCAR receive compensation for them.

THEREFORE, of teams want to own these permanently, they should have to pay NASCAR, the owner of these, fair market value. Teams wanna be like the NFL? Be prepared to pay for the franchise.
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How much is a charter worth? Would it be legal for Henricks charters to be worth more than the rest?
 
1) Why does anyone think SRX, who bought time on TV, was a competitive series to NASCAR? Is this because some weirdos looked at the first season of pro wrestling racing intended to promote Ernie Francis Jr. and liked it more than Cup that year?

2) StandOnIt, is your official position that some ot all of the RTA is a front for foreign capital to break up NASCAR? Don't pussyfoot around this. Is that your opinion, and if so, do you have any actual evidence for this beyond the wild speculation you've provided here?
 
virtualbalboa said:
1) Why does anyone think SRX, who bought time on TV, was a competitive series to NASCAR? Is this because some weirdos looked at the first season of pro wrestling racing intended to promote Ernie Francis Jr. and liked it more than Cup that year?

2) StandOnIt, is your official position that some ot all of the RTA is a front for foreign capital to break up NASCAR? Don't pussyfoot around this. Is that your opinion, and if so, do you have any actual evidence for this beyond the wild speculation you've provided here?
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Why don't you do you and I will do me. As long as you and others keep putting words in my mouth and seem to get upset about it I would suggest in order to quit jumping to conclusions and we continue to go round and round in circles, just be happy with your conclusions that you have come up with and don't worry about what others have to say.
 
KTMLew01 said:
How much is a charter worth? Would it be legal for Henricks charters to be worth more than the rest?
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I have no idea, but market value is typically estimated based on most recent sales. For this purpose it could also include past sales over a select period to establish a blended average. My thought is no particular charter is worth more than another, as there is no added value associated from a team.
 
virtualbalboa said:
No. I want to know what you actually think is happening here.
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I think what Stand On It and I are trying to explain is that the plantiff’s are seeking to establish parameters for their ability to exercise these clauses, which can undermine NASCAR as an organization. It doesn’t mean there are cabals or forces already organizaed to do this. It does mean the potential for exploitation would exist. Power unused is still power. An open door, a point of leverage.
 
Conover said:
the plantiff’s are seeking to establish parameters for their ability to exercise these clauses,
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Thanks.

What many of us don't understand is why 23XI and FRM would want to exercise them.

If it's to start a new series, we don't see why investors would be interested or what the path would be to profitability. Besides, it isn't necessary to have access to the NextGen to start a new series.

If it's to run the NextGen outside of Cup sanctions, we don't know what series it could be used in.

Getting control of parts management only makes sense if the teams want to continue racing in Cup.
 
Conover said:
I have no idea, but market value is typically estimated based on most recent sales. For this purpose it could also include past sales over a select period to establish a blended average. My thought is no particular charter is worth more than another, as there is no added value associated from a team.
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I heard they were up to 40 million. I can't remember if it was Pockrass, Gluck or somebody else. Kinda high. Whatever the market will bear is setting the price at the present time. I don't think it matters who has it to sell.
 
Conover said:
THEREFORE, of teams want to own these permanently, they should have to pay NASCAR, the owner of these, fair market value. Teams wanna be like the NFL? Be prepared to pay for the franchise.
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I could -possibly- support this for those teams that still retain the charters they were originally given. I can't see it for teams that have subsequently purchased charters, especially those who have paid several million in the last couple of years. Maybe pro-rate the fee to NASCAR to account for money those teams already spent on their purchases.
 
wi_racefan said:
Why? Nothing illegal about a private business making money
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Nope, but few entities want to grant the world access to their financial data. An individual doesn't want to be a target of scammers or greedy relatives. A company may not be making as much as perceived. Or it may not want to be vulnerable to contract renegotiations with customers, suppliers, employees, or other stakeholders. Its competitors can learn a lot from financial statements.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Nope, but few entities want to grant the world access to their financial data. An individual doesn't want to be a target of scammers. A company may not be making as much as perceived. Or it may not want to be vulnerable to contract renegotiations with customers, suppliers, employees, or other stakeholders.
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This is actually a great oppourtunity for the Wonderful Benevolent Dictator to show off all the great work.
 
wi_racefan said:
Why? Nothing illegal about a private business making money
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Some guys keep saying the Charters were given to the teams. So no money involved. Yet. Some also believe team should buy the Charter from Nascar. They owe Nascar xxxxxxxxxxxxx? dollars right now for their current Charters. Odd how any transaction adjacent to Nascar results in sacks of money falling into their hands.
 
KTMLew01 said:
Some guys keep saying the Charters were given to the teams. So no money involved. Yet. Some also believe team should buy the Charter from Nascar. They owe Nascar xxxxxxxxxxxxx? dollars right now for their current Charters. Odd how any transaction adjacent to Nascar results in sacks of money falling into their hands.
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The gift that keeps on giving.
 
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