23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

No big deal. This will just lead to more deals like Penske-Woods. Owners have been finding legal ways around NASCAR's ownership limits since multi-car teams evolved.
 
At tomorrow's hearing on Nascar's motion to dismiss the lawsuit, I doubt that much will happen to move this deal forward. It's my understanding that Nascar's argument is... even if the judge *assumes* all Nascar actions alleged by 23XI and FRM are true, there *still* is no violation of the law... and that is what warrants dismissal of the lawsuit. With the judge previously ruling that the Section 10.3 release clause in the charter contract is, in and of itself, a violation of antitrust laws, it almost seems a no-brainer that he will refuse to dismiss the suit based on that standard. But I'm not a lawyer and I certainly could be wrong.

I doubt the case will ever reach a jury. But the merits of the legal case are still supremely important, as the merits of the lawsuit will largely define the relative leverage of the two sides in pre-trial settlement negotiations. That is why I believe Nascar's desperate attempts to punish 23XI and FRM for having the gall to file the lawsuit, could backfire in a big way. How Nascar is acting seems like Exhibit A of how a monopolist bully would act. What's an impartial juror to think? One side wants to let the litigation play out under status-quo business conditions, versus the other side that wants financial bloodshed before the legal evidence is even presented. Hmmm.

P.S. -- I know the race teams want the charters to be permanent. They have been very clear about that. But I really wish I knew just what that means long term... after the media deal expires in 2031. Does anyone think they know anything about that?
 
At least one guy thinks this lawsuit will have an important and long-lasting impact on stock car racing. Matt Weaver is following the case closely and reporting on it for Sportsnaut.com

 
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Charlie Spencer said:
No big deal. This will just lead to more deals like Penske-Woods. Owners have been finding legal ways around NASCAR's ownership limits since multi-car teams evolved.
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I can also see if the 4 car ones are forced to drop to 3, Rick probably sales Jr one at a good price, and basically just move one of the 4 cars to the JRM Banner. Rick not having any ownership in the Cup team, like he does the Xfinity.
 
aunty dive said:
The 4 charter setup is grandfathered for Hendrick and Gibbs.
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I am aware of this. But sometimes these grandfathered things eventually run out. I didn’t mean if they were forced right now, my bad on not being more clear. That’s my mistake. I’ll be more clear in the future.
 
Blaze said:
I am aware of this. But sometimes these grandfathered things eventually run out. I didn’t mean if they were forced right now, my bad on not being more clear. That’s my mistake. I’ll be more clear in the future.
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HMS will remain a 4-car team if Jeff has to wheel one of them himself.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
HMS will remain a 4-car team if Jeff has to wheel one of them himself.
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Like I mentioned a couple post later. I just meant later on. I didn’t mean anytime soon. Who’s to say at a later point they tell them and JGR they gotta drop one. Could be 5-10 years from now.
 
Drop one?

If the plaintiffs prevail in court, how much will a Cup charter be worth in 5 - 10 years?
 
aunty dive said:
Drop one?

If the plaintiffs prevail in court, how much will a Cup charter be worth in 5 - 10 years?
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It’s no way of knowing. I’m just spitballing here. Not even saying for sure it would happen. Neither of us know what things will look like in the future so it’s silly to say either way. But its fun to discuss the possibility.
 
The current trends are that the car counts for open cars are up. One way to make room for more smaller teams could be by offering charters to them and expanding the current field. I don't see any indication of reducing the limits on cars because the fields are smaller. I've been posting like crazy the expansions of the teams in the two lower series. Did you know there were 77 cars in ARCA for practice?
 
Regarding the X post earlier from Matt Weaver, his complete write up on the hearing is very detailed and available in the link below. From it one cannot presume anything, other than Judge Bell sounding like a grizzled pompous type, making snarky comments. My take is that he likely will not dismiss anything at this stage, and hints towards the two sides to “size each other up”…translation…find a settlement. JMO.

sportsnaut.com

NASCAR, 23XI and Front Row go to court over motion to dismiss lawsuit

Much of this was a rehash of previous legal filings but some new details did emerge over the 90 minutes of oral arguments
sportsnaut.com sportsnaut.com
 
Conover said:
Regarding the X post earlier from Matt Weaver, his complete write up on the hearing is very detailed and available in the link below. From it one cannot presume anything, other than Judge Bell sounding like a grizzled pompous type, making snarky comments. My take is that he likely will not dismiss anything at this stage, and hints towards the two sides to “size each other up”…translation…find a settlement. JMO.

sportsnaut.com

NASCAR, 23XI and Front Row go to court over motion to dismiss lawsuit

Much of this was a rehash of previous legal filings but some new details did emerge over the 90 minutes of oral arguments
sportsnaut.com sportsnaut.com
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Yep, it looks like it is going to drag out. I believe they lay down their reasons to call each other S.O.B.'s today.
 
Hawaii808 said:
I'm not so sure NASCAR wants to go into discovery where business records will be laid out. I said before and I'll say again, there will be a settlement before the flag drops at Daytona.
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I'm giving myself until the All Star race purely because it greases it more for me if anyone wants to take me up on some action and agree to a rare double acquisition/trade of jewelry negotiated through escrow.com. "Cost of jewelry" is, in the words of Michael Jordan, whatever makes you nervous.
 
aunty dive said:
Smackdown! Again!

Time for NASCAR to set egos aside, swallow some pride and invite the people who put on the show back to the table.
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That's one of 2 options at this point.
Instead, the answers must be found when the parties have a full opportunity to pursue discovery of the relevant facts and then at trial, where the jury will be able to weigh the evidence and assess the credibility of the witnesses (unless the case is resolved sooner by the parties or the Court).”
 
StandOnIt said:
That's one of 2 options at this point.
Instead, the answers must be found when the parties have a full opportunity to pursue discovery of the relevant facts and then at trial, where the jury will be able to weigh the evidence and assess the credibility of the witnesses (unless the case is resolved sooner by the parties or the Court).”
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That's right. NASCAR can choose to go to trial with the plaintiffs and in doing so hand over all their financial documents for a period of at least a couple of years to them. Would you like to "trade some expensive jewelry"? I see from prior posts getting paid is an issue and I believe I've found a solution for us.
 
aunty dive said:
Smackdown! Again!

Time for NASCAR to set egos aside, swallow some pride and invite the people who put on the show back to the table.
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That judge telegraphed his decisions ahead of them during the hearing. His rationale is that without presentation of the plantiff’s evidence he refuses to grant a dismissal on the basic framework of cause. If you want to gleefully call it a SMACKDOWN, rock on. Perhaps judge Bell has little understanding of the sport. Should this get to trial, I foresee a lot of education being provided to help him with context. Have no doubt NASCAR is not fond of the prospects of discovery, but “discovery” is not a blank check.
 
Conover said:
That judge telegraphed his decisions ahead of them during the hearing. His rationale is that without presentation of the plantiff’s evidence he refuses to grant a dismissal on the basic framework of cause. If you want to gleefully call it a SMACKDOWN, rock on. Perhaps judge Bell has little understanding of the sport. Should this get to trial, I foresee a lot of education being provided to help him with context. Have no doubt NASCAR is not fond of the prospects of discovery, but “discovery” is not a blank check.
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No doubt that is what I believe, When he said awhile back when it was suggested that there were other forms of the sport, Indy, F-1 (monopolies in 23XI's world of characterizations ) the judge insisted otherwise. It showed me a lack of knowledge of the racing business. If it makes any sense to go further with the judge, who knows if he changes his beliefs. If Nascar goes forward, it shows they aren't scared about discovery, if not, fold em up. Who knows, the teams might capitulate, I believe the meetings have been taped.
 
Conover said:
That judge telegraphed his decisions ahead of them during the hearing. His rationale is that without presentation of the plantiff’s evidence he refuses to grant a dismissal on the basic framework of cause. If you want to gleefully call it a SMACKDOWN, rock on. Perhaps judge Bell has little understanding of the sport. Should this get to trial, I foresee a lot of education being provided to help him with context. Have no doubt NASCAR is not fond of the prospects of discovery, but “discovery” is not a blank check.
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Perhaps the judge was offended by NASCAR’s stated intention, should they win at trial, to attempt to claw back the charter portion of all prize monies earned by those 6 cars in the face of his order that each of the 6 would race throughout the 2025 season with full charter privilege.

Yet another example of the attitude and habits driving their monopolistic business practices. Why would a win for the sanctioning body at trial wind back the clock on court-ordered compliance with existing privileges afforded all charter holders for the 2025 season?

They continue to demonstrate their disdain for the 36 car backbone of the sport. Just my opinion, obviously.
 
I do not intend to stop preferring to support the team owners, their drivers, crews, shop personnel, admin employees, sponsors, etc.

I like to watch racing that showcases the skills and expertise of all those people. Watching NASCAR executives and their invited guests consume catered hors d’oeuvres and fine wines while sitting in their boxes at Daytona International Speedway is not compelling sports entertainment.

I’m sure they’re convinced that they’re well-intentioned. They’re not. They’re greedy. The cars and the stars are the show.
 
aunty dive said:
Watching NASCAR executives and their invited guests consume catered hors d’oeuvres and fine wines while sitting in their boxes at Daytona International Speedway is not compelling sports entertainment.
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Have you given it a chance? Maybe you just don't understand the rules. Tell you what, I'll start a live chat during the D500 and we can talk about the strategies. Once you get a grasp on some of the subtleties ('Why did he go for the shrimp instead of the pate? What are the advantages and disadvantages of liquor vs. wine?'), you'll understand why motorsports noshing is such an exciting, competitive form of auto racing.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Have you given it a chance? Maybe you just don't understand the rules. Tell you what, I'll start a live chat during the D500 and we can talk about the strategies. Once you get a grasp on some of the subtleties ('Why did he go for the shrimp instead of the pate? What are the advantages and disadvantages of liquor vs. wine?'), you'll understand why motorsports noshing is such an exciting, competitive form of auto racing.
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Get them drunk, bring contracts for sponsorships.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Have you given it a chance? Maybe you just don't understand the rules. Tell you what, I'll start a live chat during the D500 and we can talk about the strategies. Once you get a grasp on some of the subtleties ('Why did he go for the shrimp instead of the pate? What are the advantages and disadvantages of liquor vs. wine?'), you'll understand why motorsports noshing is such an exciting, competitive form of auto racing.
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Would be very excite to hear em talking about when Ben Kennedy enters the Nascar HoF.
 
Greg said:
Would be very excite to hear em talking about when Ben Kennedy enters the Nascar HoF.
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'Entered', not 'enters'. Immediately after his resignation, BZF was granted a waiver for the buffets and open bars he failed to start (ironic, no?), and then admitted for his contributions to the sport.
 
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