23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

I have rooted for Chevys all my life, mostly out of habit. But I am just about ready to become a Hamlin fan, the fun nasty bad guy that everybody hates.
It is just fun watching all the hate, almost makes me laugh out loud.
 
Greg said:
I have rooted for Chevys all my life, mostly out of habit. But I am just about ready to become a Hamlin fan, the fun nasty bad guy that everybody hates.
It is just fun watching all the hate, almost makes me laugh out loud.
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Nasty?

Nah. Just obnoxious.
 
Best part of this will be seeing the teams save millions of dollars only to spend it on R&D and more expensive parts anyway.

Then we'll see who really has the "skill and talent" around the garage 🤣
 
aunty dive said:
Smackdown! Again!

Time for NASCAR to set egos aside, swallow some pride and invite the people who put on the show back to the table.
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I'd like to believe NASCAR might do that now, but I'm not optimistic about it. And the reason is that the judge's "smackdown" concerns only the preliminary injunction skirmish, not the actual merits of the antitrust case.

Jim France wants to punish 23XI and FRM for having the audacity to challenge the Supreme Ruler Of The Stock Car Universe with a lawsuit. France wants to make an example of these upstarts... a public flogging (financially) to make sure no other team owners consider their options anytime soon. Make 'em compete as open teams, costing over $10 million per car in revenue during 2025. And kiss those SHR charters good-bye, because NASCAR won't approve their sale to 23XI and FRM.

On the other side... 23XI and FRM ask that the status quo business conditions be extended while the legal challenge winds its way through court. And the judge has agreed with this, strongly and completely... indeed a "smackdown" to prevent NASCAR's desired punishment of the wayward children of 23XI and FRM.

However, that's just the temporary business conditions during the legal process. The merits of the case are yet to be presented, argued, and decided by a jury of ordinary North Carolina citizens. Persuading the judge to delay the punishment until the legal questions are answered is one thing, but ultimately prevailing on those legal issues is another thing entirely. Unless NASCAR believes they will lose the jury verdict, I expect they will not be amenable to reopening negotiations toward genuine compromise to reach a settlement.

Regarding the merits of the case, the plaintiffs have two early rulings in their favor... (1) The judge has apparently decided that the relevant market is "elite stock car racing" rather than something much broader such as "all motorsports" or even "all professional sports and entertainment," making it much easier to prove in court that a monopoly exists. (2) The judge believes that NASCAR's infamous Section 10.3 antitrust release is likely a violation of the law, in and of itself. Will these two rulings be enough to convince the France family to abandon their legal defense and negotiate a settlement? I am doubtful.

I know several people here are predicting settlement before Daytona 500, settlement by All Star weekend, etc. They might be right, and I hope they are, but my prediction is settlement comes much nearer the December trial date.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I know several people here are predicting settlement before Daytona 500, settlement by All Star weekend, etc. They might be right, and I hope they are, but my prediction is settlement comes much nearer the December trial date.
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None of us making that prediction are making it because we think NASCAR doesn't want to win and hurt those teams. It's that now we're entering a period where in order to make that trial date, the judge will make both parties enter discovery, which the judge themselves will be managing. That would mean that NASCAR has to hand over it's accounting as to what it really makes and what it really spends to 23XI and FRM. That's not going to be a choice for NASCAR. That is going to be mandated. Now, it's true of the teams too, but I very much doubt the teams have anywhere near the same level of concern for this as the privately held multibillion dollar organization infamous for being a black box.

When those documents get turned over, if any of them are used in the trial, they also become public record. That means EVERY team can see them. EVERY sanctioning body can see them. EVERY track owner can see them. You think NASCAR is so clean in their operations that there's no potential blowback from that? Maybe we live in strange times and there's no possible consequences for them. There's a whole lot of billionaires though that info could piss off. We don't even know what sorts of internal memos or emails or other documentation there might be.
 
StandOnIt said:
Court of appeals? So much for this will be over soon right?
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Not that anyone would, but technically if they lose and lose their charter etc later on, couldn’t someone who, say, misses the Daytona 500, for example, claim damages for not having another open spot available had 23 and FRM also had to qualify their way in?

That’s a take on something I’ve pondered a bit about whether Nascar can claim irreparable harm. They can’t go back and redo the qualifying after this is settled.
 
Hmm reading between lines I bet this series really likes Denny and MJ.

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Naitch said:
This is literal monopolistic behavior. 23XI’s lawyer is dancing in his office.
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Please explain to us the details of this sanctioning agreement, what it exactly says, and what led the track to make this business deal in the first place. Was it made under duress? Did it involve any other partners relative to investment in infrastructure, paving, lighting, etc? Was the state of NC involved? Seems like a LOT of parties tied into this track were forced to participate against their will via a “monopolistic” bully. 🫢
 
Conover said:
Please explain to us the details of this sanctioning agreement, what it exactly says, and what led the track to make this business deal in the first place. Was it made under duress? Did it involve any other partners relative to investment in infrastructure, paving, lighting, etc? Was the state of NC involved? Seems like a LOT of parties tied into this track were forced to participate against their will via a “monopolistic” bully. 🫢
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NASCAR’s Rockingham sanctioning agreement apparently gives them veto power over use of the facility by other groups.

In other words, they can monopolize auto racing at Rockingham if it suits their purpose.
 
aunty dive said:
NASCAR’s Rockingham sanctioning agreement apparently gives them veto power over use of the facility by other groups.

In other words, they can monopolize auto racing at Rockingham if it suits their purpose.
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People can continue to ignore the fact that track is is privately owned and that they have a right to refuse service to anyone.
 
aunty dive said:
NASCAR’s Rockingham sanctioning agreement apparently gives them veto power over use of the facility by other groups.

In other words, they can monopolize auto racing at Rockingham if it suits their purpose.
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Some seem to not understand the term sanctioning.

www.thefreedictionary.com

sanctioning

Definition, Synonyms, Translations of sanctioning by The Free Dictionary
www.thefreedictionary.com www.thefreedictionary.com
 
Naitch said:
The argument that 23XI’s lawyers would make is that NASCAR used their influence to get that clause included.
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That "clause" as you say has been in the contracts for years. Kenny Wallace said it was on the contracts when he was driving. It isn't something new. It is in dispute, but it isn't an ah hah moment like the press and the teams are making it out to be.
 
StandOnIt said:
That "clause" as you say has been in the contracts for years. Kenny Wallace said it was on the contracts when he was driving. It isn't something new. It is in dispute, but it isn't an ah hah moment like the press and the teams are making it out to be.
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This would just establish that NASCAR has engaged in monopolistic practices for a long time.
 
StandOnIt said:
People can continue to ignore the fact that track is is privately owned and that they have a right to refuse service to anyone.
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Say I own a bookstore. I call Steven King's publisher and ask to buy his books to sell. They say sure, but I have to agree not to sell any other horror author's books. So I have the right to sell the most popular author and no one else, or sell everyone else and not make any money.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Say I own a bookstore. I call Steven King's publisher and ask to buy his books to sell. They say sure, but I have to agree not to sell any other horror author's books. So I have the right to sell the most popular author and no one else, or sell everyone else and not make any money.
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It's opposite. You own the store. Somebody calls you and asks you if they can use it. You do research and find you don't want their business.
 
StandOnIt said:
It's opposite. You own the store. Somebody calls you and asks you if they can use it. You do research and find you don't want their business.
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Do you think NASCAR called Rockingham and asked if it could come race there? Maybe I've missed something but I thought tracks requested dates and paid application fees.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Do you think NASCAR called Rockingham and asked if it could come race there? Maybe I've missed something but I thought tracks requested dates and paid application fees.
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Keep moving the goalpost bud. The facts are that that series races tiny cars in scale. They aren't racing on the larger track, but they are going to race the smaller track that is at Rockingham. It is a non story IMO.
 
StandOnIt said:
At least make an effort before you think you have a gotcha.
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It's not a gotcha lol. Just pointing out that they took taxpayer money. The SCSCS said they couldn't use the track because of an agreement with a different sanction. It's my personal opinion that the track shouldn't make deals like this if they took money from the government so they could operate.
 
Tim_Richmond_Fan said:
It's not a gotcha lol. Just pointing out that they took taxpayer money. The SCSCS said they couldn't use the track because of an agreement with a different sanction. It's my personal opinion that the track shouldn't make deals like this if they took money from the government so they could operate.
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I pointed out all numerous races being held there. If that doesn't float your boat so be it. Again they didn't refuse service in this case, they are racing on a smaller track. Looking at their web site I can see why. It's possible it could be another blood thirsty fan like some are around here. :idunno:
 
StandOnIt said:
The facts are that that series races tiny cars in scale. They aren't racing on the larger track, but they are going to race the smaller track that is at Rockingham.
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I'm not sure what you think the Super Cup Stock Car Series is but they basically race gen 4 style bodies and have had Rockingham scheduled in the past. Drivers like Codie Rohrbaugh have come through it.

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