23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

Tim_Richmond_Fan said:
The irony of the rumor of Toyota being non-unionized is that they are heavily unionized in Japan, just not in the states. Although a few plants in the US have had UAW votes recently, they haven't passed.
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Unions pull the wagon for the non union shops. Toyota raised the wages when there is word of union organizing.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
=IF= NASCAR needs to be worried about potential OEMs bypassing it for other series, I don't see F1 as the main competitor. Manufacturers are jumping into sports cars and endurance racing right and left worldwide. Compared to F1 or Cup, those series are easier to get into, cheaper to compete, cars closer to production models, fewer internal political distractions and barriers to entry, fan base that's more interested in the competition than the spectacle, etc.
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100%.....but is this where the money is....is there enough exposure?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I don't have demo numbers or marketing survey results, so I can only offer semi-informed guesses regarding the US market.
  • The majority of motorsports fans in the US follow NASCAR. Most of those NASCAR fans like ovals better than road courses. Most of them like more beating and banging than is permitted in sports car racing.
  • We're in an era of where sports fans aren't as willing to watch longer events as they used to be. While six of this season's 11 IMSA races are under three hours, the other five (and all eight of the European WEC series races) are at least six hours. They're too long for a single US network to cover in one broadcast window, so watching some races requires switching networks and streams.
  • With races featuring multiple classes, dozens of cars, and hundreds of drivers getting in and out of cars, it takes more than casual attention to keep track of who's who and where they're running. It requires some practice to learn to keep track of their strategies and how they change as the race evolves.
On the other hand, attendance has been growing for the last several years, barring COVID. Tickets in the US are relatively inexpensive compared to Cup and far less than F1. Garage access is unparalleled. Weekends usually feature multiple lower-class races. There are few full-course yellow flags thrown to interrupt the racing; local yellows are used while cars are given more time to recover. The number of participating manufacturers is growing in both IMSA and WEC since the sanctioning bodies made it easier for teams to run in both series.

And the Miatas are a hoot and a half.
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My problem with IMSA stuff is that I want to follow Lexus. As it is in GTD class, it sometimes gets lost in the shuffle....The feeling I have always had from Toyota is that they love the IMSA stuff for the very reason you cited in our exchange.
 
Revman said:
100%.....but is this where the money is....is there enough exposure?
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Between WEC and IMSA, at least 22 manufacturers currently think so. Those include all three NASCAR's OEMs (Ford is in development) and at least four of F1's.

ESPN story from just prior to this year's Rolex:
www.espn.com

IMSA is attracting more manufacturers, and in turn, more fans

At a time when many racing series' growth is flat, IMSA is adding manufacturer after manufacturer, and fans are lining up to watch the on-track action.
www.espn.com www.espn.com

Okay, I'm done witnessing.
 
KTMLew01 said:
May be same as above. I just avoid anything Faux related:

sports.yahoo.com

NASCAR files appeal against 23XI and Front Row just 1 hour before Daytona 500 qualifying begins

NASCAR filed a 68-page appeal Wednesday night — roughly one hour before the start of Daytona 500 qualifying — arguing a federal judge erred in recognizing 23XI Motorsports and Front Row Motorsports as chartered teams for 2025 as the two organizations sue over antitrust claims. U.S. District...
sports.yahoo.com sports.yahoo.com
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"Should 23XI and Front Row prevail, it is believed NASCAR will eliminate the charter system outright rather than renegotiate new charters."

It is quite amusing that the Frances believe (or pretend to believe) that if they were to lose at trial and be found in violation of federal antitrust law, that they would be in position to retaliate by ending charters completely.
 
gnomesayin said:
"Should 23XI and Front Row prevail, it is believed NASCAR will eliminate the charter system outright rather than renegotiate new charters."

It is quite amusing that the Frances believe (or pretend to believe) that if they were to lose at trial and be found in violation of federal antitrust law, that they would be in position to retaliate by ending charters completely.
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They would be be in a position to abide by the judgements of the court.

Nothing more.
 
gnomesayin said:
"Should 23XI and Front Row prevail, it is believed NASCAR will eliminate the charter system outright rather than renegotiate new charters."

It is quite amusing that the Frances believe (or pretend to believe) that if they were to lose at trial and be found in violation of federal antitrust law, that they would be in position to retaliate by ending charters completely.
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Like you would know?
 
StandOnIt said:
Food for thought. Why would Nascar if they lost like so many believe they will, continue to offer their charters to teams if every time they negotiated a charter contract they had teams suing them because they were unhappy with the terms?
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A good question. I don't know; win or lose, why would NASCAR continue to burden itself with charter management? I haven't understood from the beginning what benefits NASCAR gets from having charters expire. What's the disadvantage of turning them over to the teams permanently? Can't everything else in the current contracts be negotiated separately next time around?
 
The charters are collectively worth several hundred million dollars. There is no “taking them off the table” with a keystroke.

That is exactly the kind of malign business practice about to be litigated. You don’t lose an anti-trust court case and then proceed to break anti-trust law a week later.
 
aunty dive said:
The charters are collectively worth several hundred million dollars. There is no “taking them off the table” with a keystroke.

That is exactly the kind of malign business practice about to be litigated. You don’t lose an anti-trust court case and then proceed to break anti-trust law a week later.
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Says you?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
A good question. I don't know; win or lose, why would NASCAR continue to burden itself with charter management? I haven't understood from the beginning what benefits NASCAR gets from having charters expire. What's the disadvantage of turning them over to the teams permanently? Can't everything else in the current contracts be negotiated separately next time around?
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It's all about monopoly right? Get rid of the guaranteed charters. Let anybody in that can qualify for the number of spots Nascar has available. No protection, no guaranteed spot in the race anymore, no cuts from the broadcasting. Payouts for positions only. That would solve the suing problems.

This happens after the huge anti trust suit everybody is so excited about. Nascar files bankruptcy. Re-organizes.
 
If the plaintiffs are successful in court, we can expect NASCAR to come into full compliance with all aspects of the judgement as rendered, including everything that pertains to the charters and the charter agreements.

Hard to successfully declare bankruptcy when the value of your assets grossly exceeds your total liabilities.
 
StandOnIt said:
Let anybody in that can qualify for the number of spots Nascar has available. No protection, no guaranteed spot in the race anymore, no cuts from the broadcasting. Payouts for positions only.
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Guaranteed starting spots existed long before charters were created. Charters don't have to be used to ensure those, or to provide a cut of broadcast money. Previous season's owner points were used for starting spots and money shares; is there a reason they still can't be?
StandOnIt said:
It's all about monopoly right? Get rid of the guaranteed charters.
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Why get rid of them and have to fight the battle with some teams over the money spent to buy them? I'm not asking for alternatives or what the teams have on the line. What would NASCAR lose from turning the charters over to the teams?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Why get rid of them and have to fight the battle with some teams over the money spent to buy them? I'm not asking for alternatives or what the teams have on the line. What would NASCAR lose from turning the charters over to the teams?
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So far from what I can tell, the two teams are suing because they think Nascar is a monopoly and they didn't sign the contract that includes the charters in part of it. They are mostly trying to dig for more money as I see it, a bigger cut of the pie. It's a contract dispute from Nascar's side.
 
Part of the calculus from NASCAR in the suits might be that if they lose, they will have already been exposed in the discovery process, in which case they might as well just try and nuke everyone from orbit in a last ditch effort to not share any more of the profits than they want. Amusing that it keeps coming back to this being about NASCAR making these choices and blaming others for decisions they are making. Sounds familiar.
 
aunty dive said:
If the plaintiffs are successful in court, we can expect NASCAR to come into full compliance with all aspects of the judgement as rendered, including everything that pertains to the charters and the charter agreements.

Hard to successfully declare bankruptcy when the value of your assets grossly exceeds your total liabilities.
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But nothing stops you from ending the company and starting a new one
 
Nor will they before all pre-trial matters and subsequent appeals are resolved.

In the interim, it’s an anti-trust case. NASCAR engaged a firm whose specialty is anti-trust litigation. Good idea.
 
wi_racefan said:
I'm pretty sure there's no law requiring nonessential businesses to operate. A power company yes, a racing series....probably not
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The law won’t tolerate an end-run around a court’s judgements by fraudulent means. What you’ve described is exactly that.
 
wi_racefan said:
I'm pretty sure there's no law requiring nonessential businesses to operate. A power company yes, a racing series....probably not
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Good luck getting the existing partners to sign back up, especially the networks you left without content. Whoever signs on won't be paying as much for the privilege.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Good luck getting the existing partners to sign back up, especially the networks you left without content. Whoever signs on won't be paying as much for the privilege.
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There is a 7 year contract I believe. Plenty of time to change direction and make other plans if need be. They should have a result by then.
 
Bubba wins the first Dual, wonder if tables were flipping in the France family suite?
 
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