0 Ride Height ---The X Factor

Revman

Revman

Toyota Gazoo Racing North America
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Alright, I suspect that the reason this isn't a bigger deal on the broadcasts is that you can't see it, and the programming is geared to somebody other than a true race fan, but I believe that this 0 Ride Height deal has thrown many teams into set up tizzies. JGR is fast as they always have been in a short run, and then they go to absolute crap. MWR is pretty much quicker than they are over the course of a fuel run. Jimmie does not blow leads like he did in Fontana and Martinsville. He just doesn't. Kasey Kahne has been completely irrelevant. Those are just a few examples. What the hell is going on? What are the teams doing? Somebody with some racing knowledge chime in......
 
Revman said:
Alright, I suspect that the reason this isn't a bigger deal on the broadcasts is that you can't see it, and the programming is geared to somebody other than a true race fan, but I believe that this 0 Ride Height deal has thrown many teams into set up tizzies. JGR is fast as they always have been in a short run, and then they go to absolute crap. MWR is pretty much quicker than they are over the course of a fuel run. Jimmie does not blow leads like he did in Fontana and Martinsville. He just doesn't. Kasey Kahne has been completely irrelevant. Those are just a few examples. What the hell is going on? What are the teams doing? Somebody with some racing knowledge chime in......
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Well for 1 Jimmie didnt blow the lead at Fontana, he blew a tire.
He didnt blow the lead at Martinsville that much either, just got out raced on the restart and into the turns. Jimme had not really had anyone on his ass all day but when he did towards the end of the race as his car lost grip, he got real loose. You saw the back end slip out when Clint snuck up on him. When Kurt closed the gap in the closing laps he was able to loosen him up twice and after the second time Jimme burnt his rear tires off trying to re-pass Kurt. There just wasnt any grip out there today.

I really think tire wear is a much bigger factor in speed retention this year because of the added down force on the 2014 car with Goodyear not adjusting for the changes. Not saying ride height management is a major factor, but it definitely isn't the only one that teams have yet to master.
 
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ChexOrWrex said:
Well for 1 Jimmie didnt blow the lead at Fontana, he blew a tire.
He didnt blow the lead at Martinsville that much either, just got out raced on the restart and into the turns. Jimme had not really had anyone on his ass all day but when he did towards the end of the race as his car lost grip, he got real loose. You saw the back end slip out when Clint snuck up on him. When Kurt closed the gap in the closing laps he was able to loosen him up twice and after the second time Jimme burnt his rear tires off trying to re-pass Kurt. There just wasnt any grip out there today.

I really think tire wear is a much bigger factor in speed retention this year because of the added down force on the 2014 car with Goodyear not adjusting for the changes. Not saying ride height management is a major factor, but it definitely isn't the only one that teams have yet to master.
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When Jimmie blew the tire, he lost the lead. When Kurt passed him, he lost the lead. Okay, moving on.....Your point is well taken that tire wear seems to be a huge issue due to the increased spoiler and downforce that comes with all of that. Wondering if the rear camber rules plus soft rear springs play into this--might explain the left rears we saw at Fontana. It's just weird that the teams don't seem to be responding. I do believe that NASCAR has wanted tires to degrade before fuel runs out for some time. They have it, and some are struggling. Points well taken Chex. I had been focusing on the 0 Ride Height deal and perhaps this is more of a downforce/tire thing. Fascinating stuff.
 
big problem today......too cold ! track corners wouldn't take rubber all race. wore tires out quicker....no track grip.
wore out faster....on those w/ bad set up. ....just like fontana.
bind car down ta track ......tire becomes suspension.....
think 3400 lb go kart w/ no shocks / springs.
dw showed diff on tv .......'13 "rockin chair" set up vs sucked down '14.

they ALL run same tire.......
tho goodyear does throw in a case of kleenex for lil jeffie every race .
 
hawg dawg said:
big problem today......too cold ! track corners wouldn't take rubber all race. wore tires out quicker....no track grip.
wore out faster....on those w/ bad set up. ....just like fontana.
bind car down ta track ......tire becomes suspension.....
think 3400 lb go kart w/ no shocks / springs.
dw showed diff on tv .......'13 "rockin chair" set up vs sucked down '14.

they ALL run same tire.......
tho goodyear does throw in a case of kleenex for lil jeffie every race .
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The thing is that with the new ride height, they are supposed to be able to put more suspension into the suspension--keeping the tire out of the suspension equation. Just not sure what the teams are missing there.
 
We'll get more info at Texas. Hard to tell on short tracks.
 
I agree. Very interesting stuff.
 
Kyle18fan said:
Kyle Busch gets the "green-white-checker" setup every week, it worked once it might work again :rolleyes:
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Hell, with these new cars and tire wear, he's got it made in the shade for short runs if there is a caution every 15-20 laps.
 
I think it has a lot to do with the new springs.. the cars are forced down to the track instead of the air on the nose pushing them down. Its a huge change through the entire suspension in the cars. I think the tire wear is more significant because there is more of a load on them for longer.. these cars stay tucked down to the track on the exit instead of bouncing. Im no engineer but I think that would set off a chain reaction of different changes they need to make to the chassis and suspension because they don't have to deal with the same things they are used to having to fight on the track... its a completely new animal. I remember Jimmie saying a few weeks back that even chassis adjustments don't do the same thing they used to anymore, they do something they would have before to tighten the car up and it will loosen it up. The weight in these cars are at a different centre of gravity through the turns now and I would imagine it's hard to figure out how to consistently take advantage of that.
 
Revman said:
Alright, I suspect that the reason this isn't a bigger deal on the broadcasts is that you can't see it, and the programming is geared to somebody other than a true race fan, but I believe that this 0 Ride Height deal has thrown many teams into set up tizzies. JGR is fast as they always have been in a short run, and then they go to absolute crap. MWR is pretty much quicker than they are over the course of a fuel run. Jimmie does not blow leads like he did in Fontana and Martinsville. He just doesn't. Kasey Kahne has been completely irrelevant. Those are just a few examples. What the hell is going on? What are the teams doing? Somebody with some racing knowledge chime in......
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Someone with racing experience told me the tire pressure is now used to set the cars ride attitude, and the pressure in the left rear is the key.
 
FenderBumper said:
Someone with racing experience told me the tire pressure is now used to set the cars ride attitude, and the pressure in the left rear is the key.
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I asked a former crew chief if they would use tire pressure to do that and he said it tough because they don't want the pressures to high on the start or something like that. I imagine it's quite a tough balancing act.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
I asked a former crew chief if they would use tire pressure to do that and he said it tough because they don't want the pressures to high on the start or something like that. I imagine it's quite a tough balancing act.
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Thus the 11 lbs of pressure in the left rear? Probably ended up at 16 lbs at the end of a run.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
I think it has a lot to do with the new springs.. the cars are forced down to the track instead of the air on the nose pushing them down. Its a huge change through the entire suspension in the cars. I think the tire wear is more significant because there is more of a load on them for longer.. these cars stay tucked down to the track on the exit instead of bouncing. Im no engineer but I think that would set off a chain reaction of different changes they need to make to the chassis and suspension because they don't have to deal with the same things they are used to having to fight on the track... its a completely new animal. I remember Jimmie saying a few weeks back that even chassis adjustments don't do the same thing they used to anymore, they do something they would have before to tighten the car up and it will loosen it up. The weight in these cars are at a different centre of gravity through the turns now and I would imagine it's hard to figure out how to consistently take advantage of that.
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That is kind of what I'm thinking Sliced. The 0 Ride Height deal and its impact on tire wear has many of these guys completely screwed up. I would say that the Penske boys are ahead in figuring this out. I was listening to both the scanner of the 11 and 18, and within a couple of laps of each other, those cars went to crap. Similar things were happening to the 20. The insane thing is that according to Dave Rogers, all three went in completely different directions in terms of set up. This tells me that they are still out to lunch in a big way. Adding to the craziness is that the MWR guys are faster than my JGR guys. TRD encourages open set up books so that makes everything even more confusing. I kind of feel that maybe the JGR boys are going in their own direction to a degree. I wish more about this was discussed on the broadcasts, but as I have said before, most wouldn't have clue 1 about all of this. Crew Chiefs have been saying since the offseason that this is the biggest change NASCAR has made in years. Nobody listened really. They had better start. Denny Hamlin total crap at Martinsville is news really.
 
Revman said:
That is kind of what I'm thinking Sliced. The 0 Ride Height deal and its impact on tire wear has many of these guys completely screwed up. I would say that the Penske boys are ahead in figuring this out. I was listening to both the scanner of the 11 and 18, and within a couple of laps of each other, those cars went to crap. Similar things were happening to the 20. The insane thing is that according to Dave Rogers, all three went in completely different directions in terms of set up. This tells me that they are still out to lunch in a big way. Adding to the craziness is that the MWR guys are faster than my JGR guys. TRD encourages open set up books so that makes everything even more confusing. I kind of feel that maybe the JGR boys are going in their own direction to a degree. I wish more about this was discussed on the broadcasts, but as I have said before, most wouldn't have clue 1 about all of this. Crew Chiefs have been saying since the offseason that this is the biggest change NASCAR has made in years. Nobody listened really. They had better start. Denny Hamlin total crap at Martinsville is news really.
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Especially after that promise lol... Yeah I don't know what theyre doing but they need to figure it out.. Kyle got that win but that was only on the short run.... another few laps he probably would have fallen off like he was all day. I don't mind it because my guys are doing great at their expense but Im very interested to see when they figure it out. I would rather my drivers beat everyone on a level playing field.

Theyre not missing much speed... just don't seem to have that race dominating speed we saw from them all last year.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Especially after that promise lol... Yeah I don't know what theyre doing but they need to figure it out.. Kyle got that win but that was only on the short run.... another few laps he probably would have fallen off like he was all day. I don't mind it because my guys are doing great at their expense but Im very interested to see when they figure it out. I would rather my drivers beat everyone on a level playing field.

Theyre not missing much speed... just don't seem to have that race dominating speed we saw from them all last year.
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No point well taken. How the hell did Denny go from calling his shot to being absolute crap? I mean, he knows what he needs to feel, and after Friday, he must have felt something good--so he thought. Props to the Penskes---ride the pony as far as it will take you. Everybody is working with the same tools, but only your boys have it right IMO. Tough **** to everybody else. As a devoted TRD fan, I will be at the edge of my seat Sunday to see if we even make progress let alone win. You are right--there is speed in our cars, but if it's only for 3 laps....you get the point. Again, the stunning thing is that MWR seems to have a better handle on things. Maybe JGR needs to give Scott Miller a ring. The fact that MWR is moving in the right direction and that they are completely reliant on TRD gives me hope. Again, I think JGR is going their own way as they historically have to some degree.
 
I think when ever you make a change like this some driver like the feel and some don't.

It's just like when they first went to the COT two drivers come to mind both Jr and Gordon didn't seem to take tho the car, but now they seem to have taken a liking to the feel of this.

Also when a few years ago all the Roush drivers were out to lunch after a change. It just takes time to get them comfortable with the feel. If the drive is uncomfortable in the car they sure are going to drive it deep into the corner.
 
Gil Martin was just on NASCAR Radio and he said that there are as many interpretations of set ups as there are cars right now. He said that the garage is in a huge transition with the new rules. I figured that the 0 Ride Height would be significant, but I thought that the big players would assert themselves as usual. Certainly it would be reasonable to assume that it will end up that way, but man, things sure are up in the air right now. Absolutely cool.
 
Speed Racer said:
I think when ever you make a change like this some driver like the feel and some don't.

It's just like when they first went to the COT two drivers come to mind both Jr and Gordon didn't seem to take tho the car, but now they seem to have taken a liking to the feel of this.

Also when a few years ago all the Roush drivers were out to lunch after a change. It just takes time to get them comfortable with the feel. If the drive is uncomfortable in the car they sure are going to drive it deep into the corner.
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....and thinking about it another way.....Denny was amazing with the COT at Martinsville and Richmond. With the lighter car, the playing field leveled.
 
This rule change totally shuffled the deck. Forever there have been ride height.. Not just limits, but requirements, which put limits on everything suspension related...

Now, they have all this room to free up the car and they make adjustments and the car goes tight, or vice versa. The entire geometry is different. I think it's thrown the teams for more of a loop then they have expected. Adjustments affect things in different ways, more radically then they have ever seen. They need to pull back the reins a bit and re-think how aggressive their set-ups are.

As far as why the tires are failing, It seems to me atleast, in my mediocrely educated opinion, they basically have the chassis riding as rigid as possible and using next-to-flat tires to compensate.
 
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DUN24 said:
This rule change totally shuffled the deck. Forever there have been ride height.. Not just limits, but requirements, which put limits on everything suspension related...

Now, they have all this room to free up the car and they make adjustments and the car goes tight, or vice versa. The entire geometry is different. I think it's thrown the teams for more of a loop then they have expected. Adjustments affect things in different ways, more radically then they have ever seen. They need to pull back the reins a bit and re-think how aggressive their set-ups are.

As far as why the tires are failing, It seems to me atleast, in my mediocrely educated opinion, they basically have the chassis riding as rigid as possible and using next-to-flat tires to compensate.
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Guess we are going to have to bring back Tim Brewer in the Tech Garage on ESPN. Would be wonderful if Larry Mac or somebody would dive deeper into this on broadcasts. This is fascinating. Many, many CC's predicted that this would change everything, but the media didn't understand it, so they let it go. This is cool. I am excited to see if JGR can right the ship, and if MWR can continue its forward progression--even in the face of media certainty that they were screwed over the NAPA withdrawal BS.
 
Revman said:
Guess we are going to have to bring back Tim Brewer in the Tech Garage on ESPN. Would be wonderful if Larry Mac or somebody would dive deeper into this on broadcasts. This is fascinating. Many, many CC's predicted that this would change everything, but the media didn't understand it, so they let it go. This is cool. I am excited to see if JGR can right the ship, and if MWR can continue its forward progression--even in the face of media certainty that they were screwed over the NAPA withdrawal BS.
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Im not sure they can go much more into it... I wouldn't think the broadcasters know enough about it to tell the world things that the teams aren't even sure of yet.
 
Revman said:
Well said. Let's speculate then.
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Absolutely! :D

I really look forward to when they do figure this all out and can give us some information on it because Im curious as hell as to what they're looking at and how what changes affect what differently. I think the tires and pressures are more important than ever because they work with the pressures to get the car up in the right rear but also need to build the setup around it so they don't blow it out and can stay fast... of course I could be way off.. That's what I love about it.. Im so curious. I have a basic understanding of how the setups used to work and what different changes do to the car... but the changes are so significant that I cant wrap my mind around what it looks like now as far as the centre of gravity and how to place it where you want it. But I guess that's to be expected when all I really know about it is that they use bigger springs and put them on top of the shock instead of under it.
 
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Now that the cars are as low as they can go, the tire sidewalls are doing what the suspension used to. Lower air pressure gives a little softer ride, which is usually a good thing traction wise. At the same time it puts more stress on the sidewall and deforms the tire to the point of failure. I think that the faster teams are running a bit above the absolute minimum, making the suspension do enough work to save the tires, and give the needed traction. That's the best guess I can come up with.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Absolutely! :D

I really look forward to when they do figure this all out and can give us some information on it because Im curious as hell as to what they're looking at and how what changes affect what differently. I think the tires and pressures are more important than ever because they work with the pressures to get the car up in the right rear but also need to build the setup around it so they don't blow it out and can stay fast... of course I could be way off.. That's what I love about it.. Im so curious. I have a basic understanding of how the setups used to work and what different changes do to the car... but the changes are so significant that I cant wrap my mind around what it looks like now as far as the centre of gravity and how to place it where you want it. But I guess that's to be expected when all I really know about it is that they use bigger springs and put them on top of the shock instead of under it.
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Honestly man, that's exactly how I feel. I am curious as hell.
 
Yogisd1 said:
Now that the cars are as low as they can go, the tire sidewalls are doing what the suspension used to. Lower air pressure gives a little softer ride, which is usually a good thing traction wise. At the same time it puts more stress on the sidewall and deforms the tire to the point of failure. I think that the faster teams are running a bit above the absolute minimum, making the suspension do enough work to save the tires, and give the needed traction. That's the best guess I can come up with.
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Think you have an excellent take on things. JGR was running way above minimum at Fontana. No failures, but the cars were crap on the long run. There is a sweet spot in there somewhere.
 
no fontana / martinsville type set up this week. new game.
maybe conservative 1st 1/2-3/4 of race....then throw tha wild set ups in ?
hope bad set up =bad tire wear ......good set up = good tire wear.... again this week.....= good race !
 
Remember they're using the dual tread zone tire this weekend. The same one they used at Atlanta and I think Kansas last season. Im curious to see how this works. I wonder if the idea for this tire came about in talks about these new rules. They could literally be made for each other. Brad was talking about how this tire is the future of NASCAR etc. when it first came and I'm sure most of the teams knew about the rule changes long before the media or any of the fans.
 
Unbelievable how little this has been covered, but how big it is. GAME CHANGER! Where is Terry Brewer in the Tech Garage when we need him?
 
In the most uncovered yet most important story of the season, I heard Chad talk about how the new rules make the car insanely tight, and that Jimmie hates tight. He said that it was so severe that he has been at a loss in trying to figure out how to remedy the condition. He is feeling that in order to right the ship, he (Chad) will have to do a better job getting Jimmie the car he wants, but that Jimmie is going to have to learn a car that drives differently from optimum. Uh, this is the 6 time Champion. Amazing. Wonder what Penske has--Is Brad and Joey better at driving a tight car, or have they found a way to get the tight out of it?
 
Revman said:
In the most uncovered yet most important story of the season, I heard Chad talk about how the new rules make the car insanely tight, and that Jimmie hates tight. He said that it was so severe that he has been at a loss in trying to figure out how to remedy the condition. He is feeling that in order to right the ship, he (Chad) will have to do a better job getting Jimmie the car he wants, but that Jimmie is going to have to learn a car that drives differently from optimum. Uh, this is the 6 time Champion. Amazing. Wonder what Penske has--Is Brad and Joey better at driving a tight car, or have they found a way to get the tight out of it?
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Tons of negative camber on the right front helped them turn and killed the tires, no happy medium it seems
 
Kyle18fan said:
Tons of negative camber on the right front helped them turn and killed the tires, no happy medium it seems
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Well, JGR would be the happy--er, unhappy--medium. Not fast, but awesome on tires.
 
It's clear Penske has found something. Those cars are among the fastest every week, and they seem to adjust better than most.
 
FenderBumper said:
It's clear Penske has found something. Those cars are among the fastest every week, and they seem to adjust better than most.
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Yeah, and honestly this is what I love about this sport. They have something that nobody else does yet everybody had the same shot at it with all of their engineers. Now, the chase is on to see if teams like my JGR boys can catch up. It will be tough. Whatever Penske has Childers figured out as well. Delana's wife has been fast from the December Charlotte test. I wish there was more discussion about this. There has to be a philosophy behind it even if we aren't taking specifics. I want to know more.
 
What are we to do .......... the people that know arent talking :(
 
Kyle18fan said:
What are we to do .......... the people that know arent talking :(
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I hear ya buddy, but maybe the question has yet to be asked. The closest we have is DW's "coil under". Chad was pretty forthcoming about the effect of the set up. Somebody has to have an idea about what Penske is doing.
 
Revman said:
I hear ya buddy, but maybe the question has yet to be asked. The closest we have is DW's "coil under". Chad was pretty forthcoming about the effect of the set up. Somebody has to have an idea about what Penske is doing.
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Brad had tire issues at Richmond from camber but the 22 didnt, or not as bad at least
 
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