Aero, Motor, Hendrick, and is this over?

Revman

Denny beat your favorite driver....again!
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Interesting comments from JJ post race....Won't comment (obviously) on whether the Hendrick advantage is motor or aero. Wally Dallenbach Jr. on TNT commented last week that motor can overcome minor handling issues. Jimmie did say that the rules package was so close that he thought everybody was close on Ride Height and aero (Thus motor the advantage?). What are your thoughts on the advantage and can anybody catch up? If the answer is yes, when is the last time a team/manufacturer could close a gap this far into the season--I can't think of an instance......
 
don't think its the engine totally with hendrick. you will not see 10-15hp difference on the track. in fact if a car is good OFF the corner it will make it look like its got the better motor. brad k seemed think his ford is off on power a little. if a driver says it I believe it. They are the ones who know best on the track because they can tell when they are back in the gas compared to the other car. its more important for the car to handle in the center of the corner than it is to have the most HP, motor advantage can also differ from track to track. its also about where in the RPM range the motor is putting its power out.
 
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it looks like when his motors are out front, they make quick distance from 2nd place.
 
I have to believe its A lot of Motor...at a track like Michigan and how fast ALL of the Hendrick powered cars were look how good the 51 was all weekend.
 
don't think its the engine totally with hendrick. you will not see 10-15hp difference on the track. in fact if a car is good OFF the corner it will make it look like its got the better motor. brad k seemed think his ford is off on power a little. if a driver says it I believe it. They are the ones who know best on the track because they can tell when they are back in the gas compared to the other car. its more important for the car to handle in the center of the corner than it is to have the most HP, motor advantage can also differ from track to track. its also about where in the RPM range the motor is putting its power out.
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I thought somebody here said Toyota will be kicking arse at the beginning of this year??????

Do you have an opinion on the matter? Not sure that I ever said that if that is your point, but if I did, I am sure you will dig it up for us. Whatcha think on the subject?
 
I have to believe its A lot of Motor...at a track like Michigan and how fast ALL of the Hendrick powered cars were look how good the 51 was all weekend.

This. Hard to fathom where the horsepower has come from. Very, very impressive.
 
Takes a lot more than just a strong engine to be fast week in and week out, you can't put a 454 big block in a otherwise stock camaro and expect it to be fast.

You've got to get the rear suspension set-up so you can utilize the power you have. You've got to have the rear end geared correctly, as well as the right ratio's in the transmission to put that power to the ground. The front end has to be set-up perfectly to allow the driver to drive the car with the power they have. The bodies must be built with the least amount of drag possible, as much downforce as possible. And don't forget the engineer's must design the best handling chassis possible, while staying within NASCAR's rule book. Engine tuners must fine tune the ECU for maximum, yet safe, horse power.

A strong engine will go a long way for any given team, but if you can't build a car around it, then it's useless.
 
Takes a lot more than just a strong engine to be fast week in and week out, you can't put a 454 big block in a otherwise stock camaro and expect it to be fast.

You've got to get the rear suspension set-up so you can utilize the power you have. You've got to have the rear end geared correctly, as well as the right ratio's in the transmission to put that power to the ground. The front end has to be set-up perfectly to allow the driver to drive the car with the power they have. The bodies must be built with the least amount of drag possible, as much downforce as possible. And don't forget the engineer's must design the best handling chassis possible, while staying within NASCAR's rule book. Engine tuners must fine tune the ECU for maximum, yet safe, horse power.

A strong engine will go a long way for any given team, but if you can't build a car around it, then it's useless.
obviously but when you have teams like the 51 outrunning the RFR cars, JGR cars etc. something is better as far as in the motor department. Maybe the Hendrick stuff simply peaks better at the gear ratios NASCAR has regulated.
 
obviously but when you have teams like the 51 outrunning the RFR cars, JGR cars etc. something is better as far as in the motor department. Maybe the Hendrick stuff simply peaks better at the gear ratios NASCAR has regulated.
I agree that it is strange to see a team like the 51 outrun RFR cars, even with them having Hendrick horsepower. But I think it's the fact that the 51 also has the benefits of being able to utilize the Hendrick engine tuners and engineers also.
 
I think the best indication was at the straight at Pocono. That's the longest in all of NASCAR, and it was all HMS engines at the front and making passes throughout the day. Clearly they've made some gains over the off season and the competition has yet to be able to match it.

In my opinion I would rank the engines in the following order.
1. HMS
2. Roush Yates
3. TRD
4. ECR
5. Anything else?
 
Interesting comments from JJ post race....Won't comment (obviously) on whether the Hendrick advantage is motor or aero. Wally Dallenbach Jr. on TNT commented last week that motor can overcome minor handling issues. Jimmie did say that the rules package was so close that he thought everybody was close on Ride Height and aero (Thus motor the advantage?). What are your thoughts on the advantage and can anybody catch up? If the answer is yes, when is the last time a team/manufacturer could close a gap this far into the season--I can't think of an instance......

I believe teams can catch up, once we get into the last half of the season, teams will be returning to tracks with more data on setups and etc. Just look at what Tony Stewart and the 14 team did in 2011, they were out if it and they closed a HUGE gap between themselves and the 99 team.[/quote]
 
HMS has won the last 5 races in a row with no TRD competition
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Do you have an opinion on the matter? Not sure that I ever said that if that is your point, but if I did, I am sure you will dig it up for us. Whatcha think on the subject?
I think Chevy is kicking Toyotas ass as usual.
 
HMS is just flat out better than all the other teams. Some things never change. Counting Stewart in 11, they have won what, 7 of the last 8 championships?
 
I think Chevy is kicking Toyotas ass as usual.
They certainly are this year. In 2013, Toyota only had two fewer wins than Chevrolet, despite the fact that there were usually twice as many Chevys on the track as there were Toyotas most races. So I think Toyota was right there with Chevy last year.

2014 is a completely different story however. 2 wins in 15 races ain't cuttin' it.
 
I thought I read where Toyletta had a deal with using a Chevy small block configuration while developing their own push rod engines. Meybe it was just a dream, hell, I don't know.:confused:
 
HMS is just flat out better than all the other teams. Some things never change. Counting Stewart in 11, they have won what, 7 of the last 8 championships?
And 12 of the last 19 if you go back to Gordon's first championship in '95. The other seven are 3 JGR, 2 Roush, and 1 each for Yates and Penske.
 
HMS cars clearly have the best HP. Even if they don't get thru the turns faster, they gain ground on the straight. It was Penske at the start of the year, now it's HMS. think Rick took Roger out drinking and got him to tell some Penske secrets. ;)
 
I thought I read where Toyletta had a deal with using a Chevy small block configuration while developing their own push rod engines. Meybe it was just a dream, hell, I don't know.:confused:
Know what you flush down a Toyletta? A ****rolet. ;)

Unfortunately though, there's already a TuRD floating at the top.
 
I think michigan points to just how bad roush is right now. The lack of sponsorship is coming home to roost. They have managed to piece together deals the last few years but make no mistake they are far from ideal deals. edwards and biffle are having trouble even finishing in the top 15. and stenhouse, I actually think danica is better than he is albeit in a much better car. The problem with carl edwards in particular is it looks like there isn't really a place to go at least one that most people would want to go to. IMO he is going to be taking a big hair cut in pay as a result. Roush's problems go beyond just being off, they begin and end with a lack of sponsorship money.
 
I think michigan points to just how bad roush is right now. The lack of sponsorship is coming home to roost. They have managed to piece together deals the last few years but make no mistake they are far from ideal deals. edwards and biffle are having trouble even finishing in the top 15. and stenhouse, I actually think danica is better than he is albeit in a much better car. The problem with carl edwards in particular is it looks like there isn't really a place to go at least one that most people would want to go to. IMO he is going to be taking a big hair cut in pay as a result. Roush's problems go beyond just being off, they begin and end with a lack of sponsorship money.

Not according to the cat in the hat. From Jack's quotes at Michigan he doesn't seem to think their problems are that widespread. Looks like he's got his head buried in the sand again because their entire program is in a state of disarray. I agree it starts with sponsorship.
 
It has a lot to do with the 48 team as a whole. Yesterday they just plain outsmarted the field with a winning strategy achieved out of ever changing variables and we all know Chad is very very good at that..
But, as I stated in another thread last week, a Hendrick engine would be in victory lane at Michigan.
I wanted Mat to win, but oh well, we'll get'em later.
 
I think Chevy is kicking Toyotas ass as usual.

Thanks for clarifying that for those of us that are Toyota fans. Will pass it along to the Ford folks as well. Hadn't noticed until you mentioned it. Thanks for the insight.
 
Something else to consider that I find interesting: Team Penske has two cars that are competitive pretty much every week, while RFR has three cars that have done next to nothing this year. They both use Roush-Yates engines, so whats the difference?

Must be something in either the aero, or chassis that makes Penske better. Which comes down to having better engineers to build these cars.

So thats a good example of the engines not being as important as having a car that you can actually use that power.
 
I don't think the Hendrick motored Chevy's are a little bit better, but a whole lot better than the rest of the field. Same can be said about Johnson IMO.

http://www.sbnation.com/nascar/2014...p-results-jimmie-johnson-hendrick-motorsports

From the first lap in practice Friday through the fall of the checkered flag two days later, Hendrick drivers or those of its affiliate teams (Stewart-Haas Racing and Chip Ganassi Racing) were omnipresent at the top of the scoring charts. Combined, drivers using Hendrick horsepower led 81 percent of all laps Sunday, and held nine of the top 13 positions.


"I think it is obvious that Hendrick Motorsports produces fast race cars" Johnson said. "They build fast engines. It doesn't matter if it is Stewart-Haas, or the Hendrick organization. We're winning a lot of races, and running up front."

It's a kind of dominance that has left the opposition befuddled. Even third-place finisher Brad Keselowski of Team Penske had to concede just how outclassed the garage is in comparison to the Hendrick juggernaut.

"We all have got a little bit of work to do because it's pretty obvious that the Hendrick engines are way ahead of everyone else," Keselowski said. "Usually that's not something you catch up with in one season. As far ahead as they are right now, they're probably a full season ahead of everyone. We've got work to do to get there."

Five weeks in a row for Hendrick motorsports.
 
Not according to the cat in the hat. From Jack's quotes at Michigan he doesn't seem to think their problems are that widespread. Looks like he's got his head buried in the sand again because their entire program is in a state of disarray. I agree it starts with sponsorship.
don't expect any owner in this sport to come out and say oh we are hurting for money and thats why we suck. Kenseth was lost because jack didn't have enough money to pay him. they put ricky in the car for probably half the money if not less. There have also been some races with ford on the car, whenever ford is on the car that is a heavily discounted sponsorship. ask yourself why haven't biffle and edwards announced they are staying especially biffle who has said he wants to, answer they don't have sponsorship deals in place yet to make the deals. I am shocked penske has no interest in carl of all the people at this time with his business connections, he has the most ability to put a deal together. Roush hasn't been a big player since at least 2011 or sooner thats when you can start to trace the money issues.
 
I believe teams can catch up, once we get into the last half of the season, teams will be returning to tracks with more data on setups and etc. Just look at what Tony Stewart and the 14 team did in 2011, they were out if it and they closed a HUGE gap between themselves and the 99 team.
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Good point.
 
Something else to consider that I find interesting: Team Penske has two cars that are competitive pretty much every week, while RFR has three cars that have done next to nothing this year. They both use Roush-Yates engines, so whats the difference?

Must be something in either the aero, or chassis that makes Penske better. Which comes down to having better engineers to build these cars.

So thats a good example of the engines not being as important as having a car that you can actually use that power.

Brad talked about that. Penske seems to have the chassis/aero sorted while Hendrick has the big horsepower. Don't get me wrong, Hendrick is fine in the chassis department, but there is room for growth there. What I find amazing is that the tendencies of this new set up do not suit Jimmie, but he has adjusted once again. It is this ability that makes him the greatest driver to ever turn a wheel IMO. I sometimes wonder if JGR is that bad, or is it Kyle, Denny, and Matt's inability to adjust the way Jimmie has. I might argue that MWR has been faster than JGR--execution isn't the same at MWR, however.
 
Brad talked about that. Penske seems to have the chassis/aero sorted while Hendrick has the big horsepower. Don't get me wrong, Hendrick is fine in the chassis department, but there is room for growth there. What I find amazing is that the tendencies of this new set up do not suit Jimmie, but he has adjusted once again. It is this ability that makes him the greatest driver to ever turn a wheel IMO. I sometimes wonder if JGR is that bad, or is it Kyle, Denny, and Matt's inability to adjust the way Jimmie has. I might argue that MWR has been faster than JGR--execution isn't the same at MWR, however.
I think the way Jimmie, Chad, and that entire teams ability to adjust to different cars and rule changes throughout the years is what makes everybody else look like they're behind.
 
I think it is safe to say that Hendrick has a definite advantage over the rest of the field because they have the monetary resources to pay for the best engineers, crew chiefs, and equipment. Don't forget that their partnership with HAAS Automation goes much further than providing rolling chassis and engines for Stewart-Haas Racing. Gene HAAS has been making CNC tools and dies for Hendrick for a long time, and they know how to build tolerances into bodies and engine parts that are well above the Nascar inspection process.
It's an engineering game that keeps Hendrick ahead of the competition, and it also benefits Stewart-Haas as a racing organization. Hendrick also demands very high standards from his employees, treats them very well if they perform, and knows how to build teams that have the coherency of an oxygen atom. I suspect that he also has a degree of control over the standards at Stewart-Haas which translates into and 8 car team on any given weekend. Hendrick is the closest thing to the Keikhaefer monopoly that the sport has seen since the 1960's.
 
I think the way Jimmie, Chad, and that entire teams ability to adjust to different cars and rule changes throughout the years is what makes everybody else look like they're behind.

You nailed it. Right there.
 
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