Are things really this bad for JGR?

M

MOEJOE

Guest
Jayski:

Hamlin could have TRD engine at Michigan: #11-Denny Hamlin, who has experienced more than his share of engine issues this season, may have a Toyota Racing Development engine in his Sprint Cup car next weekend at Michigan. TRD president Lee White said there remain issues to work out, the biggest fitting the TRD engine into a car for which Joe Gibbs Racing builds engines specifically. Hamlin said he and crew chief Mike Ford requested the change as the team, ranked 11th in points and currently holding the second wild-card spot with a win, tries to solidify its Chase position. "We felt like we were on pace to have an engine failure every four weeks or so,'' Hamlin said after hitting the wall during qualifying for Sunday's race at Watkins Glen International. "We just knew we were going to have another one before the Chase started if the odds worked out, and another couple in the Chase. We asked TRD to help us out and they were more than happy to help us out."(ESPN.com)(8-14-2011)
 
Sounds like a good call to me, the TRD engines have proven more reliable and have better fuel mileage than the Gibbs engine. Fuel mileage and durability are much more important at Michigan than power. Hamlins trying to hang on to that chase spot but I hate the way their going about it......Just Go Out and WIN that will keep you there!
 
FlFlash said:
Sounds like a good call to me, the TRD engines have proven more reliable and have better fuel mileage than the Gibbs engine. Fuel mileage and durability are much more important at Michigan than power. Hamlins trying to hang on to that chase spot but I hate the way their going about it......Just Go Out and WIN that will keep you there!
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2 weeks ago, Denny was on trackside complaining that Kez was in 22nd this late in the season and still had a chance to make the chase. After Pocono, I would say Kez, Ragan and Menard have Denny panicking just a little.

Be prepared for him to do some real stupid things on the track if he doesn't get in the top 10 real soon.
 
FenderBumper said:
2 weeks ago, Denny was on trackside complaining that Kez was in 22nd this late in the season and still had a chance to make the chase. After Pocono, I would say Kez, Ragan and Menard have Denny panicking just a little.

Be prepared for him to do some real stupid things on the track if he doesn't get in the top 10 real soon.
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Hamlin? The Chase is the only reason he had a shot last year (a championship handed to him by NASCAR that he threw away).
 
With the Chase for the Sprint Cup rapidly approaching, it appears Joe Gibbs Racing will place two drivers in NASCAR’s championship round. And those two drivers will have different engine packages in the Chase.

In an exclusive interview with SPEED.com Thursday afternoon, team president J.D. Gibbs said Denny Hamlin will run engines built by Toyota’s racing division, TRD, U.S.A., while Kyle Busch and Joey Logano will finish out the 2011 campaign with the same JGR-built engines they’ve used all season.

Full story here.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
With the Chase for the Sprint Cup rapidly approaching, it appears Joe Gibbs Racing will place two drivers in NASCAR’s championship round. And those two drivers will have different engine packages in the Chase.

In an exclusive interview with SPEED.com Thursday afternoon, team president J.D. Gibbs said Denny Hamlin will run engines built by Toyota’s racing division, TRD, U.S.A., while Kyle Busch and Joey Logano will finish out the 2011 campaign with the same JGR-built engines they’ve used all season.

Full story here.
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Kind of odd, because it seems Denny is easier on equiptment than Kyle. I wonder if Denny is demanding a lean tune for gas mileage, which can hurt the engines.
 
FenderBumper said:
Kind of odd, because it seems Denny is easier on equiptment than Kyle. I wonder if Denny is demanding a lean tune for gas mileage, which can hurt the engines.
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I don't know if I'd agree on Denny being easier on engines, one of the worst things you can do is "Lug" a race engine and Kyle sure as hell never do's that!
 
FlFlash said:
I don't know if I'd agree on Denny being easier on engines, one of the worst things you can do is "Lug" a race engine and Kyle sure as hell never do's that!
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Really? Denny bouncing on the crank? Come on, he's a whole lot better than that.
 
You know I was thinking Hamlin had had more engine failures this year butt after double checking my numbers JGR has:

Hamlin 1 in race engine failure
Busch 1 in race engine failure
Logano 1 in race engine failure

AND all of those where in the first 5 races of the season.
 
FlFlash said:
You know I was thinking Hamlin had had more engine failures this year butt after double checking my numbers JGR has:

Hamlin 1 in race engine failure
Busch 1 in race engine failure
Logano 1 in race engine failure

AND all of those where in the first 5 races of the season.
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I thought I seen somewhere before that Denny had 3,Joey had 2,and Busch had 1?
 
FlFlash said:
You know I was thinking Hamlin had had more engine failures this year butt after double checking my numbers JGR has:

Hamlin 1 in race engine failure
Busch 1 in race engine failure
Logano 1 in race engine failure

AND all of those where in the first 5 races of the season.
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Beside Phoenix, Logano also had an engine lose a cylinder at Bristol, but he finished the race. I see that as a race failure too. Not a total failure resulting in a DNF, but a failure for sure.
 
I only counted In-Race failures because those are the only ones I could verify.
Your right though there was more than one engine failure during practice and testing for the Gibbs boys, I just can't find an exact figure for them?
 
FlFlash said:
I only counted In-Race failures because those are the only ones I could verify.
Your right though there was more than one engine failure during practice and testing for the Gibbs boys, I just can't find an exact figure for them?
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Logano's engine failed at Bristol. Trust me, it's verified. They have also avoided 3 DNF's by changing engines and going to the back. I'm fairly sure it was one each, and possibly all on the same weekend. I seem to remember a JGR engine changing orgy early in the season.
 
No, that's wrong. I think they changed 2 engines (Busch and Hamlin) before qualifying one weekend.
 
I found out why Hamlin is the only one changing over now.

"Hamlin has expressed more than a little concern over his situation. According to ESPN pit reporter Dr. Jerry Punch, who during a weekly appearance on a Knoxville, Tennessee sports talk radio program, Hamlin has declared that he does not want a JGR engine in his car this weekend in Michigan.

If the driver has made such a statement, it shows an startling lack of confidence. But such a lack of confidence might seem somewhat justified considering the number of recent failures. However, it must also be considered that Busch currently sits atop the standings so the organization certainly can be successful as well."

http://racingwithrich.com/?p=1490

I think Hamlin will be crying about a lack of horsepower for the next 4 weeks. It's not like MWR and RB are tearing it up.
 
Thanks for the info Bumper,
I should have said I was only able to verify DNF's due to engine failures butt was sure there where more engine issues. I remember the Bristol engine problem I just could'nt verify it.
Hamlin must be Really Sure of his place at JGR to make some of the comments he has lately, I can't Imagine what thats doing for Team Moral :confused:
 
FlFlash said:
Thanks for the info Bumper,
I should have said I was only able to verify DNF's due to engine failures butt was sure there where more engine issues. I remember the Bristol engine problem I just could'nt verify it.
Hamlin must be Really Sure of his place at JGR to make some of the comments he has lately, I can't Imagine what thats doing for Team Moral :confused:
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I was thinking the same thing. He was acting like a little priss after the gas shortage at Phoenix. It was shocking to me that he didn't speak to Mike Ford the entire off season.

Hamlin, Busch, Edwards and a few others have spent their entire career in Johnsons shadow. I think it gets to them, and is probably a big part of why Carl and Kyle seek some weekend glory in the NW series. Denny has lost confidence in himself and his team, and now the engine department. He can't feel too good about the brake guys either. He's a mess right now, and sweating making the chase. He's going into full defense mode to protect his WC spot. If Ambrose, Ragan or Menard go all out and nab another win, he's toast.
 
FenderBumper said:
I was thinking the same thing. He was acting like a little priss after the gas shortage at Phoenix. It was shocking to me that he didn't speak to Mike Ford the entire off season.
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Sure dosent sound like the recipe for a Championship....butt I could be wrong it's happened before.......once ;)
 
from link in dpkimmel2001's post today.
So far this season, JGR has suffered 11 engine failures, an uncommonly high number for the normally reliable team.
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Dustin Long researched JGR's engine woes and came up with some interesting JGR engine numbers.....

JGR has had 11 engine failures in practice or a race this season. Denny Hamlin has had to start at the rear of the field four times because of an engine change and has fallen out of one race because of a blown engine. It’s no wonder he’s fighting for a spot to make the Chase instead of preparing for a title run as many predicted this year. Also, Joey Logano has had to start at the rear of the field three times because of engine changes and fallen out of one race because of a blown engine. Kyle Busch has had to start at the rear once because of engine issues and fallen out of one race because of that.

Five of those 11 engine failures were suffered by Hamlin. Is it any wonder he wants to look in another direction? He's sitting 12th in the points, 2nd of the two wildcard positions. Only 27 points ahead of the 3rd place driver in the running for a Chase spot, most everyone's favorite whipping boy, Paul Menard. Five engine failures over 22 race weekends so far this season. As Larry Mac would say, 'That aint not good!'
 
Couple of tech questions

1 Are all the failures in the same area valves, valve springs etc
2 Do the teams have computers on board to moniter engines like water temp, oil temp, rpms etc you would think that they would have in todays envioriment i would think that with 11 failures they could pin point SOMETHING

Also remember JGR having oil pump drive problems 2 or 3 years ago that nobody else was having
 
No computers are allowed except in test sessions.

For reasons known only to the racing gods some drivers are tougher on motors then others.
 
I recall the recent story regarding JGR's use of unapproved (and very heavy) oil pans. Putting weight as low as possible on the cars certainly lowers the center of gravity and thereby should improve cornering ability.

My question is, did the JGR engines' failure rate increase after JGR was caught and forced to use the approved version of the oil pan?
 
robbybee said:
I recall the recent story regarding JGR's use of unapproved (and very heavy) oil pans. Putting weight as low as possible on the cars certainly lowers the center of gravity and thereby should improve cornering ability.

My question is, did the JGR engines' failure rate increase after JGR was caught and forced to use the approved version of the oil pan?
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No most of their engine failures where before that.

I had heard that the HUGE oil pan was more of a underchassis aero aid than ballast. Cleaning up undercar aero decreases lift.
Which makes more sense to me because all the teams struggle to get weight low and TO THE REAR in the Cup cars a heavy oil pan would be low but up front where you already have an over abundance of heavy components.
 
robbybee said:
I recall the recent story regarding JGR's use of unapproved (and very heavy) oil pans. Putting weight as low as possible on the cars certainly lowers the center of gravity and thereby should improve cornering ability.

My question is, did the JGR engines' failure rate increase after JGR was caught and forced to use the approved version of the oil pan?
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They got busted for the oil pans around the middle of June. I'm not sure of the before & after numbers but how does a heavier oil pan translates to engine failure? I never read anything about them being modified size wise only weight wise in order to translate the weight to the lower half of the car to make it handle better.
 
FlFlash said:
No most of their engine failures where before that.

I had heard that the HUGE oil pan was more of a underchassis aero aid than ballast. Cleaning up undercar aero decreases lift.
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I can see the advantage of the undercar aero channeling. That makes sense. Even though the goal is to have the splitter on the track, it doesn't seal off the air like the old-style air dam would, I guess...

I still wonder if there is a connection there?
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
They got busted for the oil pans around the middle of June. I'm not sure of the before & after numbers but how does a heavier oil pan translates to engine failure? I never read anything about them being modified size wise only weight wise in order to translate the weight to the lower half of the car to make it handle better.
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There's no rule in the NASCAR rule book pertaining to oil pan weight, only materials and size.
I wish I could find a picture of those questionable oil pans that where removed and confiscated by NASCAR but unlike what they normaly do NASCAR for some reason did not put them out for display.
 
FlFlash said:
There's no rule in the NASCAR rule book pertaining to oil pan weight, only materials and size.
I wish I could find a picture of those questionable oil pans that where removed and confiscated by NASCAR but unlike what they normaly do NASCAR for some reason did not put them out for display.
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They Were Out For Display
 
fastfordfan said:
They Were Out For Display
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"Like many in the garage area, Kurt Busch was more than curious at what was sitting on a countertop in the NASCAR hauler."

Do you have access to the interior of the NASCAR hauler? I don't.
 
FlFlash said:
"Like many in the garage area, Kurt Busch was more than curious at what was sitting on a countertop in the NASCAR hauler."

Do you have access to the interior of the NASCAR hauler? I don't.
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They Were On Display For The People That Need To See Them Not You Or I
 
FenderBumper said:
Gibbs oil pans.
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Sweet, Your my New Hero! Thanks for finding pics...your source???

Note how the pans are notched to clear the front crossmember and much deeper and flat bottomed compared to your normal shallower and rounded bottom dry sump oil pan. That closes up the bottom of the chassis and gives more room for internal trickery such as scrapper plates/screens. Odd how the ends where the seals go are cut ragged? Makes me wonder if this is more of a cover for the actual pan? An addition of room for extra oil is not an issue on a dry sump pan because the oil is carried in an external tank inside car.
Very interesting!
 
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