paul
Team Owner
Which notorious group of cheaters do you think did it the most?
Biggest cheating team
- Thread starter paul
- Start date
fergy1370
Team Owner
OK, I'll bite.
Since I have never seen anything documented on any of the teams listed that they have cheated to get where they are/were, I can't honestly say that any of them have cheated. Now if anyone here can show me that they have cheated to get where they are/were, I'll back you 100%.
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The_Mad_Hatter
Guest
Jerry Tarkanian. D'OH! Wrong sport.
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racerx11
Guest
All racers cheat. It is in their nature. Some are just better at it than some.
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stridsberry
Guest
How pessimistic can you be? Believe it or not, there are a few honest Joe's out there, admittedly more at the local level than the professional. I'm not saying that nobody cheats, because I personally know people who have (or have driven for owners who did), but there are people out there who play by the rules. I'd have to side with Fergy on this one. Unless you have reasonable evidence/suspicion of wrongdoing, "so-and-so is cheating" is a poor loser's way of explaining why he got beat.
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NateDogg
Guest
Gotta be Petty in the 70's, I love when could never figure out how that 500cid engine got in there 
haha, he has got to be one of the most inovative persons ever in the sport. Of course there wasn't near the rules to control or the methods to control. We will probally never know all the stuff he got away with, which is why he is the king. 
haha, he has got to be one of the most inovative persons ever in the sport. Of course there wasn't near the rules to control or the methods to control. We will probally never know all the stuff he got away with, which is why he is the king.
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racerx11
Guest
I was just being stupid. I know not all racers cheat. I have seen some guys get torn down every week though, and every week the tech guys found something wrong. I would be embarrassed if they tore my car down and found out I was cheating, but if I do find an advantage within the rules, I do not go blabbing about it to anyone. We are pretty much in a run what you brung 4cyl class, so we can be as creative as we want.
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stridsberry
Guest
That reminded me of an anecdote that happened a few years ago at my local track. After the Mid-Season Championship (double-points races), the tech line tore down the top 12-15 in the 4-cylinder class. Before doing so, they said that any driver who put their hand up and admitted to cheating would be penalized half their points and money from the race. If they refused to admit it and got caught, they would be penalized all of their points from that night, plus "whatever else we feel like adding on." Guess how many drivers put their hands up? That's right, zero. That's another thing about cheating, nobody who does it is going to admit to it. I think that night, seven drivers were disqualified; one driver got a 100-point penalty on top of the normal stuff, and two others lost half of their season points. That's what I love about the track I go to - the cheaters do get caught, and they get taken down HARD, regardless of their status. Further proof: one late model driver last year got a 1.5 year suspension for using tire softener.
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PettyBenson
Guest
I have no idea what Richard did in the 70s, what did he do? 
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HardScrabble
Guest
I can't really say who had the most. Depends on ya want to listen to.
I can easily relate what was the most controversial. In 1983 Richard Petty captured his 198th victory at Charlotte, beating out Darrell Waltrip and Bobby Allison. Once the race was over though, big trouble surfaced. The most noticeable thing was the tires on the right side of Petty's car. They were tires designated to be run on the left. The tires made for left side were made from a softer compound, therefore providing more traction, but wearing much faster. During the last round of pit stops the Petty crew put new tires all the way around, which is fine, but they used left side tires on all four corners. A decided advantage for a short run to the green.
But the story did not end there. As the inspection continued it also became apparent that soemthing further was amiss. Turns the engine in Pettys car was bigger than the 358 inches the rules allowed. Not just a touch either, it was big by almost 24 cubic inches measuring out at 381.98 inches.
Petty was eventually allowed to keep the win, but was docked 104 points and fined $35,000, the largest penalty in NASCAR history to that point.
It should also be noted that the second place car belonging to Junior Johnson was widely suspected to be running an oversize engine as well. NASCAR never got a chance to inspect it however. The tale is that upon noting that NASCAR was giving Petty a thourough inspection, Junior immediately loaded up and headed for for home. by the time NASCAR went looking for the car to inspect, it was long gone.
I can easily relate what was the most controversial. In 1983 Richard Petty captured his 198th victory at Charlotte, beating out Darrell Waltrip and Bobby Allison. Once the race was over though, big trouble surfaced. The most noticeable thing was the tires on the right side of Petty's car. They were tires designated to be run on the left. The tires made for left side were made from a softer compound, therefore providing more traction, but wearing much faster. During the last round of pit stops the Petty crew put new tires all the way around, which is fine, but they used left side tires on all four corners. A decided advantage for a short run to the green.
But the story did not end there. As the inspection continued it also became apparent that soemthing further was amiss. Turns the engine in Pettys car was bigger than the 358 inches the rules allowed. Not just a touch either, it was big by almost 24 cubic inches measuring out at 381.98 inches.
Petty was eventually allowed to keep the win, but was docked 104 points and fined $35,000, the largest penalty in NASCAR history to that point.
It should also be noted that the second place car belonging to Junior Johnson was widely suspected to be running an oversize engine as well. NASCAR never got a chance to inspect it however. The tale is that upon noting that NASCAR was giving Petty a thourough inspection, Junior immediately loaded up and headed for for home. by the time NASCAR went looking for the car to inspect, it was long gone.
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chuck
Guest
paul, you need to add J. Gordon from the late 90's to your poll.
fergy1370
Team Owner
How did Jeff cheat?
I'd like to know the same thing fergy....... 
paul
Team Owner
Maybe he doesn't want to say because he'll be told he's "crazy" or "looking for conspiracies" and that he musn't know what he's talking about at all because he doesn't "have concrete proof".
fergy1370
Team Owner
Kinda like us DEI fans who have to put up with the "NASCAR is helping DEI." and "DEI must cheat at 'Dega and Daytona" comments?
paul
Team Owner
No, not really.
That's called accusing them of cheating, when people do that they get called "crazy"...having no "proof" and "looking for conspiracies".
That's called accusing them of cheating, when people do that they get called "crazy"...having no "proof" and "looking for conspiracies".
I had to listen to the same B.S. when Jeff was winning his championships with Evernham. They have to be cheating to win. blah blah blah blah
I just learned to ignore it and until, and ONLY until I have concrete proof that any of these teams are outright cheating, then I will give in. It's all in the interpretation, and as you know, Nascar has everything written in pencil and not ink.
I just learned to ignore it and until, and ONLY until I have concrete proof that any of these teams are outright cheating, then I will give in. It's all in the interpretation, and as you know, Nascar has everything written in pencil and not ink.
paul
Team Owner
Sound like France and Germany demanding proof that Sadam has WMDs.
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chuck
Guest
that car called T-Rex that nascar told everham and boys to never bring back to a track, tiregate at new hampshire where jeffy took 2 tires and ran away from the field that had many cars with 4 new tires on. that season jeffy had 13 wins is still very special i'm not trying to throw any dirt around
fergy1370
Team Owner
Originally posted by paul@Mar 4 2003, 12:54 PM
Sound like France and Germany demanding proof that Sadam has WMDs.
Yeah, but we ALL know that.....Unless you ask Martin Sheen, Sheryl Crow, and all the other military advisors that live in Beverly Hills...
paul
Team Owner
Originally posted by fergy1370+Mar 4 2003, 12:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fergy1370 @ Mar 4 2003, 12:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--paul@Mar 4 2003, 12:54 PM
Sound like France and Germany demanding proof that Sadam has WMDs.
Yeah, but we ALL know that.....Unless you ask Martin Sheen, Sheryl Crow, and all the other military advisors that live in Beverly Hills... [/b][/quote]And everyone knows that all the teams listed above are/were cheaters. Unless you ask Jr fans and other NASCAR experts living in La-La-Land.
fergy1370
Team Owner
You need to add some other teams then. Just listing the few teams that you did is almost bias.
paul
Team Owner
Who else do you suggest?
Not exactly, but everyone interprets things in a different way. As I stated before.......pencil vs. ink.Originally posted by paul@Mar 4 2003, 11:54 AM
Sound like France and Germany demanding proof that Sadam has WMDs.
fergy1370
Team Owner
Beats me, I don't dwell on who I think is cheating in NASCAR.
I'm not saying that teams haven't bent/broken the rules. But to come out and say that a team does it on a regular basis is almost absurd.
I'm not saying that teams haven't bent/broken the rules. But to come out and say that a team does it on a regular basis is almost absurd.
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The_Mad_Hatter
Guest
The T-Rex car episode, as far as I know, never was fully disclosed. By that I mean, NASCAR never said EXACTLY why they didn't want that car back at the track. I always wanted to know the reason. I remember watching that race with some friends in a basement - that car was so bad fast it almost brought tears to your eyes. (yes, I'm a Jeff Gordon fan) But I always wanted to know the specifics surrounding NASCAR's decision. Something in the shocks or springs? Maybe the way the chassis was put together?
As far as the 2 tires beating 4 deal. When Jeff did it, it was cheating. When other people did it, it was "great pit strategy." Furthermore, I believe the incident you're referring to was at possibly Michigan? It was the weekend after Mark Martin's father passed and Mark was very upset. He wanted that win bad. Martin and his crew took four new tires on his final pit stop. He got out of the pits pretty decent. Evernham called for a pound or two air adjustment and right sides only. As the green flew Gordon got a good start and, because of the air pressure adjustment, was off and running - no need to wait for tire pressure to build. Martin ran out of laps to catch him. I felt sorry for Mark. I can't imagine losing my father. And then losing a race after dominating. But the whole Jack Roush deal that followed was bs. Gordon's car was inspected. It passed. The tires weren't soaked. It was an air pressure adjustment. End of story.
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TN-Ward-Fan
Guest
:lurking:
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The_Mad_Hatter
Guest
CHEATER!
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Highboy90
Guest
fergy1370
Team Owner
You know, that Cat Skid Steer Loader that Ward was driving in the commercial looked to have too big of a bucket......
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HardScrabble
Guest
For some reason I can't get myself all worked up over hardly any of these deals. Ya see I kinda figure EVERYONE has been or will be involved in "cheating". And I do not believe it is constrained to NASCAR by any stretch.
However I do find the details of specific incidents fascinating. In almost every case facts and myths become merged and it is fun to sort them out long after the fact. During the occassion these things happen, the truth is pretty obscure most of the time. Some get clered up pretty well, some never do.
Since the T-Rex car was mentioned, the latest version from Ray Evernham, pretty much confirmed by both Rex Stump and Gary Nelson goes kinda like this:
T-Rex. Named by the team after chassis designer Rex Stump.
Forgotten, or maybe unknown to some, following all the hoopla over this car is that it was designed for one thing and one thing only. To run the Winston in 1997. No one involved with car had any intention whatsoever of running this car anywhere else. The reason for this is that the chassis was designed for a short run only. In the Winston at that time the only thing that paid was the 10 lap sprint finale. Stump and Evernham did every trick in the book to make the car fast from the get go. Had that chassis had to make a 50 or 60 lap run it would have been total and absolute junk.
By the rules at that time it was legal. Much of what was done is now illegal, but not then. It stretched every grey area in the book and used the philosophy that if the rule does not say you can't, then you can. NASCAR did tell the team the car would not be allowed to run again, but according to Ray they knew dem well the team was not gonna use it anywhere else anyway. Evernham of course milked the decision for all it was worth in the press, strictly PR BS.
The teams with smarts and the money still work those grey areas for everything they're worth. If you can find something, thumbs up!! If NASCAR says no-go..then what the heck, at least ya tried. Course this is a fairly recent development, only started in NASCAR in about 1949.
However I do find the details of specific incidents fascinating. In almost every case facts and myths become merged and it is fun to sort them out long after the fact. During the occassion these things happen, the truth is pretty obscure most of the time. Some get clered up pretty well, some never do.
Since the T-Rex car was mentioned, the latest version from Ray Evernham, pretty much confirmed by both Rex Stump and Gary Nelson goes kinda like this:
T-Rex. Named by the team after chassis designer Rex Stump.
Forgotten, or maybe unknown to some, following all the hoopla over this car is that it was designed for one thing and one thing only. To run the Winston in 1997. No one involved with car had any intention whatsoever of running this car anywhere else. The reason for this is that the chassis was designed for a short run only. In the Winston at that time the only thing that paid was the 10 lap sprint finale. Stump and Evernham did every trick in the book to make the car fast from the get go. Had that chassis had to make a 50 or 60 lap run it would have been total and absolute junk.
By the rules at that time it was legal. Much of what was done is now illegal, but not then. It stretched every grey area in the book and used the philosophy that if the rule does not say you can't, then you can. NASCAR did tell the team the car would not be allowed to run again, but according to Ray they knew dem well the team was not gonna use it anywhere else anyway. Evernham of course milked the decision for all it was worth in the press, strictly PR BS.
The teams with smarts and the money still work those grey areas for everything they're worth. If you can find something, thumbs up!! If NASCAR says no-go..then what the heck, at least ya tried. Course this is a fairly recent development, only started in NASCAR in about 1949.
paul
Team Owner
Cat Stid Skeer Lo....Cat Skeed Stow Leed...Cut Skat Slow Low...Awww f*** it.
fergy1370
Team Owner
I have that saved...I love it!
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The_Mad_Hatter
Guest
Actually I was wrong, the "tire soaking" incident was Loudon - not Michigan. Jack and Mark threw another fit though, forget what that one was about.
Here:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/6...6659/cried.html
Here:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/6...6659/cried.html
paul
Team Owner
Great post HS...
The only thing that gets my goat is when people refuse to accept any speak about certain teams cheating, all the good teams have. Except Joe Gibbs and Chip Ganassi.
The only thing that gets my goat is when people refuse to accept any speak about certain teams cheating, all the good teams have. Except Joe Gibbs and Chip Ganassi.
Whizzer
Gig'em
The T-Rex car was an anomaly and although not illegal, was in shades of grey rule book areas rarely seen by NASCAR.
T-Rex was treading dangerously close to non-compliance of the rules but not quite over the edge. Since the Winston was not a point race and NASCAR feared HMS might try to run T-Rex in a regular race, they made the ruling, "don't bring it back". What took place was NOT cheating. What happened was taking advantage of the rules by not violating them. There is a difference. Evernham had no intention of racing the T-Rex car again. It ran so well, certain parts of the T-Rex chassis design were used in later chassis and have been declared legal.
As for the tire incident, there never was one. There were a few disgruntled teams trying to make a case against the tires but never offered anything other than grumbling as proof. There were many tests conducted both privately and by NASCAR but never once did anything remotely resembling an irregularity exist.
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HardScrabble
Guest
ROTFLMAO..Originally posted by paul@Mar 4 2003, 01:53 PM
Great post HS...
The only thing that gets my goat is when people refuse to accept any speak about certain teams cheating, all the good teams have. Except Joe Gibbs and Chip Ganassi.
But of course!