Bonehead of the Daytona Road Course

ChexOrWrex said:
This is moving the goal posts though. Your arguing that the cars simply can’t race in the rain. That’s a different argument. My argument is that NASCAR should let the professionals decide what to do, especially when they allowed the teams to come equipped with rain equipment just in case. Having a caution for rain and not a single team opted for rain tires and NASCAR made no effort to dry the track just proves that the teams and NASCAR both knew that stopping the race wasn’t necessary.

Entertainment > Sport.
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I think I get what you are getting at.....I do believe that these cars can race the rain, but my point is that the sport needs to evolve to enable it to get to the point you are suggesting....which I agree with. It wasn't that long ago that putting these guys on a road course was a joke in and of itself. We are there now, and they understand that if you want to be a player in this series, you had better know how to run a road course....and the series as a whole is so much better than it used to be. Next level, is the rain. There is no practice or any experience in this, so to set them free in the heat of competition is a recipe for disaster....so to your point, yeah, entertainment is more important than sport in this context. Entertainment nor sport wins if they all end up in a ball because of some moisture on the track. NASCAR is now in heavy on the road course thing....I can't imagine worse optics if in the first road course race, the series looks stupid.
 
Tim_Richmond_Fan said:
And yet, every other form of motorsport in the world that races on road courses, doesn't throw a caution so teams can put wet weather tires on. NASCAR is alone in this.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but every other form of motorsport has equipment that factors this condition into its engineering. NASCAR cars do not lend themselves to road courses in terms of vehicle dynamics IMO much less road courses in the rain. This does put it all in the driver's hands, but track time is important here. Wad them up in testing so that the show is....well.....a show. Next year will be different IMO with the new car.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
This is where this argument falls apart.

NASCAR said that they threw the caution because their officials determined that conditions were too wet to continue with dry equipment.

Yet after a few laps under caution and nobody installing wet condition equipment, they resumed racing? Track conditions too wet to continue with dry equipment do not magically dry up after a few minutes even if the rain dissipates. Either the track still has to dry or teams have to install rain equipment. Neither happened.

Their statement and reasoning makes no sense.
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Isn't there some legitimacy in throwing the flag so that the driver could assess whether or not they were up for sending to into the banking at 175+?
 
AdoubleU24 said:
A bolt of lightning would've been detected long before that baby cloud just appeared over the track. That isn't why they threw the yellow. I thought the days of the phantom debris cautions were over, but they just come in different forms now.

It's honestly disgusting that the fastest car often doesn't win in this series. That's what people should be upset about. Yes, sometimes guys make mistakes and don't execute and lose on their own, but NASCAR is compounding the issue by creating the opportunity for failure both by teams on pit road and by the drivers. The 9 team executed flawlessly all day, all the way thru green flag stops. There was no need for them to be placed in that position to have to prove themselves again just because they didn't like the way Chase was running away with the thing. They don't want a race like yesterday, they want a complete cluster **** like the truck race Friday night.

"Well he was the fastest all day, surely he can do it. Can't he do it?!"

No, eventually some things are too much to overcome.
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Oh please. The JGR cars were the best in the field. Chase carries that dump truck of a Chevy. The 20 was racing the 9 at the yellow. I would have loved to see it play as well, but the race was in Chase's hands, and he lost. Bell had to get through the crap too....thought his day was done after MTJ lost his **** into 1. NASCAR wants Chase to win....desperately. He will be okay...might even win a race or two this year. :sarcasm:
 
Tim_Richmond_Fan said:
And yet, every other form of motorsport in the world that races on road courses, doesn't throw a caution so teams can put wet weather tires on. NASCAR is alone in this.
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So that makes it wrong somehow? Because everybody else does it? I get what most people are saying. But it wasn't a caution to put rain tires on in this instance, it WAS one for a wet track. Should things or will the rules change? I would bet we won't see any changes this year, maybe off season they will change some of their rules but I won't be surprised if they don't. It's a great opportunity for TV to get spots in, and neither one misses many opportunities to do that.
 
Revman said:
Oh please. The JGR cars were the best in the field. Chase carries that dump truck of a Chevy. The 20 was racing the 9 at the yellow. I would have loved to see it play as well, but the race was in Chase's hands, and he lost. Bell had to get through the crap too....thought his day was done after MTJ lost his **** into 1. NASCAR wants Chase to win....desperately. He will be okay...might even win a race or two this year. :sarcasm:
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Bell took tires the same time Elliott did. Elliott like HE said made too many mistakes, Bell came up thru there and won the race.The JGR cars were not the best in the field. Elliott dominated the race.
 
Revman said:
Isn't there some legitimacy in throwing the flag so that the driver could assess whether or not they were up for sending to into the banking at 175+?
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The drivers were racing through turns 1 and 6 for several laps without issues. There wasnt any radio chatter demanding that NASCAR throw a caution. There was radio chatter discussing if they needed to put on wets. That never came to a head because the teams determined that it was not a significant enough rain event to warrant new tires. I would rather the professional drivers and racing teams determine the flow of the race rather than Race Control.

On this board I’ve seen arguments that Race Control threw a yellow for potential lightning, or potential heavy rains.

Although that is not what Race Control came out and announced. They said they threw the yellow because conditions were too hazardous for dry track equipment. Although they did not mandate that teams install wet track equipment for what is now a wet race track.

It would have made more sense if they said “we threw the caution due to an existing rule which we now realize is outdated and we are working to update the rule for future races”. Instead they stuck to their guns on an outdated rule and said they are not interested in updating it with local yellows.

If NASCAR is going to have 20% of the schedule be road courses, I would hope that they would adapt to existing perfected rules established by road course racing organizations.
 
Revman said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but every other form of motorsport has equipment that factors this condition into its engineering. NASCAR cars do not lend themselves to road courses in terms of vehicle dynamics IMO much less road courses in the rain. This does put it all in the driver's hands, but track time is important here. Wad them up in testing so that the show is....well.....a show. Next year will be different IMO with the new car.
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Well, they have an add on windshield wiper, and a blinking light on the rear, does that count? :laugh:
 
Revman said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but every other form of motorsport has equipment that factors this condition into its engineering. NASCAR cars do not lend themselves to road courses in terms of vehicle dynamics IMO much less road courses in the rain. This does put it all in the driver's hands, but track time is important here. Wad them up in testing so that the show is....well.....a show. Next year will be different IMO with the new car.
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I get what you're saying. NASCAR is in the midst of a change and that change involves new tracks and cars. My only complaint is that in the last 15-20 years NASCAR has never really hesitated to make some pretty big changes, regardless of fan support. With the schedule adding so many new road/roval races, NASCAR needs to make some pretty basic rule changes that let these races in particular run smoother, in my opinion.

StandOnIt said:
So that makes it wrong somehow? Because everybody else does it? I get what most people are saying. But it wasn't a caution to put rain tires on in this instance, it WAS one for a wet track. Should things or will the rules change? I would bet we won't see any changes this year, maybe off season they will change some of their rules but I won't be surprised if they don't. It's a great opportunity for TV to get spots in, and neither one misses many opportunities to do that.
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I'm not saying it's wrong or they should change rules because I want them to, but my goodness their communication on some of these issues is pretty terrible. I am trying to adjust my expectations when watching NASCAR on the road circuits but some of the decisions that race control makes leave me scratching my head. Thanks for clarifying the reason for the yellow that came out and you are definitely right in that they don't miss any opportunities to cut to a commercial.
 
Revman said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but every other form of motorsport has equipment that factors this condition into its engineering. NASCAR cars do not lend themselves to road courses in terms of vehicle dynamics IMO much less road courses in the rain. This does put it all in the driver's hands, but track time is important here. Wad them up in testing so that the show is....well.....a show. Next year will be different IMO with the new car.
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Not Bonehead-related, but I’m interested to see how the new car affects the reception to the significant increase in road courses. Better brakes, IRS, sequential shifting, generally easier to drive through the infield portion at Charlotte according to Truex. I think the “fish out of water” look appeals more to NASCAR fans than purpose-built road racers, but the wholesale changes should be interesting to watch regardless.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Not Bonehead-related, but I’m interested to see how the new car affects the reception to the significant increase in road courses. Better brakes, IRS, sequential shifting, generally easier to drive through the infield portion at Charlotte according to Truex. I think the “fish out of water” look appeals more to NASCAR fans than purpose-built road racers, but the wholesale changes should be interesting to watch regardless.
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I don't think there will be little if any difference to the hard, tough, aggressive style of racing Nascar is known for. We'll see.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Not Bonehead-related, but I’m interested to see how the new car affects the reception to the significant increase in road courses. Better brakes, IRS, sequential shifting, generally easier to drive through the infield portion at Charlotte according to Truex. I think the “fish out of water” look appeals more to NASCAR fans than purpose-built road racers, but the wholesale changes should be interesting to watch regardless.
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I was way looking forward to Sonoma this year with the new car....but then COVID happened. We will get there, and it will be fascinating IMO.
 
StandOnIt said:
Bell took tires the same time Elliott did. Elliott like HE said made too many mistakes, Bell came up thru there and won the race.The JGR cars were not the best in the field. Elliott dominated the race.
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Wrong, and not really,
 
StandOnIt said:
You aparently weren't paying attention. Bell and Elliott started side by side with 4 fresh ones the last caution. Elliott was averaging over 4 to 5 tenths per lap better than anybody.
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Not on worn tires. Before the caution everybody bitches about, he had nothing on Bell. In fact, I was pissed over the caution because I thought it might have gotten thrown to serve The Chosen because he was in trouble.....locking up, etc. while your Okie Boy was smooth and fast. Elliott had a dominant drive, but not a dominant car. Look where Toyota spent most of the day.
 
Revman said:
Not on worn tires. Before the caution everybody bitches about, he had nothing on Bell. In fact, I was pissed over the caution because I thought it might have gotten thrown to serve The Chosen because he was in trouble.....locking up, etc. while your Okie Boy was smooth and fast. Elliott had a dominant drive, but not a dominant car. Look where Toyota spent most of the day.
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If you don't think leading 44 laps and making up 7 spots his pit crew lost him on two pit stops and he passes Your Toyotas and whoever was in front of him after both flubs to lead both times, go for it. Nobody had anything at any time for Elliott until the rain stop.
 
I love you @Revman , but I'd ask you to point out one instance in the race where anyone passed Elliott without slamming or dumping him. I'll wait. When forced behind the JGR cars, he passed them with ease. Happy for Bell, but he needs to thank that "rain" caution because without mechanical failure, he wasn't touching the 9.

Edit: and with that, the pleasantries are out of the way and it truly feels like we're in season again @Revman ! ;)
 
Sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes you're the bug. It's the nature of the game.

It's not the first time Chase Elliott has been disappointed by the outcome of a race. It won't be the last.
 
Revman said:
Elliott had a dominant drive, but not a dominant car. Look where Toyota spent most of the day.
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Are you attempting the mental gymnastics to compare one driver with one car to an entire manufacturer lineup?

For what it’s worth, Chase’s fastest lap was half a second faster than the Bell’s, who had the second fastest lap. The #9 team had the car and driver to beat, but lost on circumstance.

If you are into Toyota comparisons, the end of his day was much like Kyle Busch’s.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Are you attempting the mental gymnastics to compare one driver with one car to an entire manufacturer lineup?

For what it’s worth, Chase’s fastest lap was half a second faster than the Bell’s, who had the second fastest lap. The #9 team had the car and driver to beat, but lost on circumstance.

If you are into Toyota comparisons, the end of his day was much like Kyle Busch’s.
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Look where the Toyotas ran in the Clash. Look where they ran Sunday. Look where Chase Elliott started. Lots of clean air.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Are you attempting the mental gymnastics to compare one driver with one car to an entire manufacturer lineup?
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Naw, look at his starting position, and then compare OEM to OEM. Toyota had the best cars. It's a shame that Chase can't get behind the wheel of a decent car. Adds to the fame though doesn't it?
 
Dr_B_UNC said:
I love you @Revman , but I'd ask you to point out one instance in the race where anyone passed Elliott without slamming or dumping him. I'll wait. When forced behind the JGR cars, he passed them with ease. Happy for Bell, but he needs to thank that "rain" caution because without mechanical failure, he wasn't touching the 9.

Edit: and with that, the pleasantries are out of the way and it truly feels like we're in season again @Revman ! ;)
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Love this post brother. Good stuff. I was shocked frankly that after Chase passed Bell before the caution, he couldn't get more than 1 second away from him, and then he started locking up. As I noted, I would have loved to see what would have happened without the caution. Bell wasn't going anywhere. Take it for what it is worth, but Bell thought that his car was better, and so did Stevens. Biased much? Sure, but I'm not sure why Bell would make that noise and his crew chief would back him up...they all have the SMT data....
 
StandOnIt said:
If you don't think leading 44 laps and making up 7 spots his pit crew lost him on two pit stops and he passes Your Toyotas and whoever was in front of him after both flubs to lead both times, go for it. Nobody had anything at any time for Elliott until the rain stop.
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Elliott held serve with his track position until his team lost it for him. I think that the 20 and the 19 would have looked pretty good up there too...but only the 20 could get there at the end. Didn't realize the depth of fandom for The Chosen. He had less to deal with all day because of where he started.
 
Revman said:
It's a shame that Chase can't get behind the wheel of a decent car.
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StandOnIt said:
You obviously mean "The Champion". Hopefully they won't desert as fast as a certain KDB fan if he doesn't win the championship this year.
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Apologies. "The Champion" is deserved. I am a TRD and Toyota fan. My favorite driver is the last one who won....my next favorite is the one about to win. I will be honest...I don't like what went down with Adam.....doesn't have anything to do with not winning a championship.
 
Larson for his derpy Takuma SATO kamikaze move when he had the freshest tires and best track position and just needed to be patient
 
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