charters ????

acmerocket

acmerocket

Team Owner
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now that they say a charter can cost 50 million.and you only get 40% more than a non charter.at some point i think you could come in with a good team.(jrm)with good sponsors and take 1 of the 4 spots. dam 50 million could start a good team, what am i missing???
 
It's $50MM to start the team, but someday when you want to get out of the sport you still have that same asset to sell. That was never a thing before. When you left the sport you just sold all your second-hand equipment and tools for pennies on the dollar and that was it. Now it's more like a regular sports franchise. So you get the advantage of higher purse earnings plus you always have the charter in your back pocket.
 
Don't forget the Charters are currently only valid thru 2024...NASCAR is playing hardball with the owners on extending that date with no additional fees, which is what the owners want and expect.
 
Tb
RayinTX said:
Don't forget the Charters are currently only valid thru 2024...NASCAR is playing hardball with the owners on extending that date with no additional fees, which is what the owners want and expect.
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Tbh in that case if a team finishes at the bottom for I think a third year this year (I believe I remember someone here saying one of the RWR cars was used for another car that finished low last year etc), then I wonder if this could make NASCAR pull the trigger on taking their charter, to set an example of sorts.

Also if so then tbh I wonder if Rick Ware really wants/needs it so much now that Cody isn’t likely to be driving it anytime soon, though if that’s the car I’m sure he’d much rather at least sell it and cash out. So not likely
 
RayinTX said:
Don't forget the Charters are currently only valid thru 2024...NASCAR is playing hardball with the owners on extending that date with no additional fees, which is what the owners want and expect.
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i dont understand what not valid after 2024 means? more infor please.
 
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cheesepuffs said:
It's $50MM to start the team, but someday when you want to get out of the sport you still have that same asset to sell. That was never a thing before. When you left the sport you just sold all your second-hand equipment and tools for pennies on the dollar and that was it. Now it's more like a regular sports franchise. So you get the advantage of higher purse earnings plus you always have the charter in your back pocket.
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That's the superficial, somewhat "drink the kool-aid" view.

The charters came in because NASCAR was dropping like a rock in the early/mid 2010s. Viewership, attendance, sponsorship dollars etc all down by as much as 50% in 10 years and no one knew where the bottom was. Charters guaranteed that TV revenue would go to the teams, since that was the only thing that was stable in NASCAR economics.

That's really what it's about. If the sport had not lost its multi-million dollar sponsors no owner would give a crap about a piece of paper stating their racing team was a "tangible asset". No one was arguing for that til money got tight and the owners needed a new source of $$$.
 
acmerocket said:
i dont understand what not valid after 2024 means? more infor please.
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The charters were created by NASCAR and given to the top 36 teams. They're intended to provide financial and competitive benefits to the owners - guaranteed starting positions, larger slices of the purse, etc. NASCAR also put at 2024 expiration date on them. If NASCAR and the drivers don't reach an agreement on continuing the system, the charters disappear. Owners who have purchased charters from other owners will have no assets to sell, and no way to recoup the money they spent.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
The charters were created by NASCAR and given to the top 36 teams. They're intended to provide financial and competitive benefits to the owners - guaranteed starting positions, larger slices of the purse, etc. NASCAR also put at 2024 expiration date on them. If NASCAR and the drivers don't reach an agreement on continuing the system, the charters disappear. Owners who have purchased charters from other owners will have no assets to sell, and no way to recoup the money they spent.
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The charters are in no danger of going anywhere. Way too much money involved and the charters are going at premium prices now which is one of the reasons why Dale Jr hasn't jumped into the cup series yet. On the last Dale Jr download with Chip Ganassi, Chip asked him when he was getting in the cup series and Junior told him he didn't know because the prices of the charters were too high and Chip said you need to be in the cup series you are Dale ****** Earnhardt Jr and you need to be at the top level of Motorsports. Funny moment during that show, junior said that he was in discussions with Jimmie
Johnson about buying a charter and starting a team but then Johnson ended up with Legacy Motorsports, junior said they were going to call their team Junior Johnson racing lol.
 
Spotter22 said:
The charters are in no danger of going anywhere.
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I was laying out the basic principles regarding the 2024 deadline. I agree they'll work something out before then. I expect the owners will push to eliminate any expiration dates and have the system become permanent (or at least as anything is permanent in NASCAR's Etch-A-Sketch rule book).
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I was laying out the basic principles regarding the 2024 deadline. I agree they'll work something out before then. I expect the owners will push to eliminate any expiration dates and have the system become permanent (or at least as anything is permanent in NASCAR's Etch-A-Sketch rule book).
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I would think NASCAR wants the system to be permanent since they introduced it and gave it to 36 teams for free and now it's worth millions to each Charter owner.
 
Spotter22 said:
I would think NASCAR wants the system to be permanent since they introduced it and gave it to 36 teams for free and now it's worth millions to each Charter owner.
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The entire conflict between RTA and NASCAR essentially boils down to NASCAR having the public stance that they want to eliminate charters. As aunty dive noted, RTA came up with the charter system and basically gave NASCAR the option of having a series or not in order to get them put in place.
 
Part of the Charter income is tied to TV revenue and that changes in 24 with the new TV deals so there is naturally going to be negotiations based on the new TV money figures. The charters move when or if for three years a team with a charter is in the bottom of the barrel in the standings for three straight years. The team is forced to put their charter up for sale for what the market will bear. Teams can buy or sell charters at their option as they become available.

Bottom line Nascar controls the charters, doesn't make a damn who came up with the system.
 
Do the Charter holders (cause it appears from what I read they don't OWN sh!t) have access to the negotiated TV and associate sponsor contracts that show the $$$ involved or, are they TOLD what the contracts state?

Me personally, I think get rid of the charters, make the win purse huge, and second to 10th pretty big also, you have to qualify to get in each week, no gimme's.
 
StandOnIt said:
It's real simple. Who negociates with the media for rights and the money? Hint..it isn't the RTA
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NASCAR does that, as we all know.

You / we also know that the RTA is in negotiations with NASCAR for their % share of broadcast revenues and for the “end of term” charter limitation currently in place, among other things. I expect the RTA to prevail in these matters, for the obvious reason that the cars and the stars are THE SHOW.

The idea that NASCAR can simply cancel the current arrangement is preposterous.
 
Spotter22 said:
I thought it was collaborative? And even if it's not my question still stands is why would they want to get rid of it
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It's the single largest thing that is currently preventing growth in the number of teams. More teams = more sponsorship opportunities and more activation. I doubt NASCAR wanted to reduce field size from 43 as much as it was then just adjusting to a new reality, and now I think they see growth possible on the horizon. The new spec-ish cars change the dynamics for potential owners quite a bit and I'm sure that was part of the overall desired package.
 
aunty dive said:
NASCAR does that, as we all know.

You / we also know that the RTA is in negotiations with NASCAR for their % share of broadcast revenues and for the “end of term” charter limitation currently in place, among other things. I expect the RTA to prevail in these matters, for the obvious reason that the cars and the stars are THE SHOW.

The idea that NASCAR can simply cancel the current arrangement is preposterous.
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Exactly. We've all seen a split before and how it turned out for Indycar. No one will rush to repeat it unless they see it as an existential crisis to their continuing participation in stock car racing.
 
aunty dive said:
The idea that NASCAR can simply cancel the current arrangement is preposterous.
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Who and the hell is saying they want to cancel anything?
We all know the game, go ahead and leave if you don't like it. There are plenty more teams out there that would love a Nascar shot. The RTA want it to be permanent, they aren't going to get total control of the charters, that isn't going to happen.
 
Speedbowl14 said:
That's the superficial, somewhat "drink the kool-aid" view.

The charters came in because NASCAR was dropping like a rock in the early/mid 2010s. Viewership, attendance, sponsorship dollars etc all down by as much as 50% in 10 years and no one knew where the bottom was. Charters guaranteed that TV revenue would go to the teams, since that was the only thing that was stable in NASCAR economics.

That's really what it's about. If the sport had not lost its multi-million dollar sponsors no owner would give a crap about a piece of paper stating their racing team was a "tangible asset". No one was arguing for that til money got tight and the owners needed a new source of $$$.
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I remember Ray Evernham talking about it in the mid 2000s so the idea was there when NASCAR was its peak, it took **** hitting the fan for it to move forward.
 
StandOnIt said:
Who and the hell is saying they want to cancel anything?
We all know the game, go ahead and leave if you don't like it. There are plenty more teams out there that would love a Nascar shot. The RTA want it to be permanent, they aren't going to get total control of the charters, that isn't going to happen.
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www.nbcsports.com

Cup teams ask NASCAR for ‘meaningful’ talks on charters

Cup team owners send letter to NASCAR stating they want further discussions on making charters permanent beyond the 2024 season.
www.nbcsports.com www.nbcsports.com

Games change with the times, and while there's certainly teams that would like to be in NASCAR, the number of them that can't afford a charter and which you could bet on having long, successful tenures is not going to generate a big long list. Eliminating the charters at this point would be an existential risk to the business models of the teams and thus is essentially non-negotiable regardless of what the split resembles for NASCAR.

NASCAR just happened to be one of the last international, top flight racing series to not guarantee entry to a limited field of competitors. But it is inevitable due to costs, especially with ancillary revenue looking more like the late 80s than the late 90s.
 
Charters are not going to be permanent. Nobody is dumb enough to have the teams controlling the charters.
 
Dale Jr. keeps talking about the price of the charters. They will always keep going up in price, just a like the cost of buying an NFL or an NBA team. When is the last time an NFL owner took a loss on selling a team? Never. If Dale Jr. wants to get in, he should have done it several years ago when he could have bought one for around $20 mil. The longer you wait, the more it's going to cost.
 
MRM said:
Dale Jr. keeps talking about the price of the charters. They will always keep going up in price, just a like the cost of buying an NFL or an NBA team. When is the last time an NFL owner took a loss on selling a team? Never. If Dale Jr. wants to get in, he should have done it several years ago when he could have bought one for around $20 mil. The longer you wait, the more it's going to cost.
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Dale Jr knows that. But please press keep asking.
 
sdj said:
The charter is a joke, how can it be worth anything if Nascar can take it away from them.
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It still exists on the books as a sellable asset worth tens of millions of dollars. Remove that asset and the guarantee of purse money that comes with it and all but the very tippy-top teams will find the notion of staying in NASCAR untenable. The only way it'll be sustainable at that point is through having gobs of pay drivers.
 
with only 36 cars showing up,iam starting not to see the point of all of this. iam keeping my 50 million and just show up each week.
 
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acmerocket said:
with only 36 cars showing up,iam starting not to see the point of all of this. iam keeping my 50 million and just show up each week.
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How much are your startup costs (millions) and how long until you recoup them (probably never because you go broke)?
 
with only 40% less in winnings and not having to put out 50 million for a charter i would recoup my start up allot faster than trying to recoup 100 million.sad ,but i dont think we will ever know.
 
acmerocket said:
with only 40% less in winnings and not having to put out 50 million for a charter i would recoup my start up allot faster than trying to recoup 100 million.sad ,but i dont think we will ever know.
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You will have no manufacture support, no wind tunnel time, no sim time and the worst drivers...your 40% is gonna be for 30th+ place...this formula doesn't work, otherwise someone else smarter than both of us would have already done it...
 
RayinTX said:
You will have no manufacture support, no wind tunnel time, no sim time and the worst drivers...your 40% is gonna be for 30th+ place...this formula doesn't work, otherwise someone else smarter than both of us would have already done it...
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so, if dale jr did this plan with good sponsors and good drivers,you dont think he would get allot of backing from hms and chevy.
 
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