Cup RACE thread --- Bristol

jaqua19

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Whatever man. I really was just asking a question. Sorry I guess.
I don't see a reason to apologize.

And FWIW, the context you're speaking of is worth discussing. Green flag, completed passes for the lead on track are what you're looking for. Right? How many times throughout the race the 2nd place car drive around the leader. Bell did it, BK on Larson, and earlier in the race. 3 times?

And to this point, you may see it throughout the field. And if passes are registered in the way I think they are (change in position), then an inability to complete a pass (for the lead or in traffic) will register as a position change on the leader board if they continue to race side by side at the line.

A pass for 8th, which may take 12 laps, may register as as 3 passes, when it's really just one. This broken racing paints the illusion of competitive racing with more passing because of what the spreadsheet says.

But only if passes are registered as positional changes at the line. This is data without context and is an unreasonable way to challenge the idea that "drivers can't pass".

When you have drivers complain about it the inability to pass with specific reasons like corner speed, downforce and HP, and fans like yourself questioning the context of the data, it should be worth considering that it may not reflect the passing related issues these cars have.

There is totally a short track issue with this car. The passing numbers not reflecting that just means there are more things to look into. Why don't they match up?

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StandOnIt

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I don't see a reason to apologize.

And FWIW, the context you're speaking of is worth discussing. Green flag, completed passes for the lead on track are what you're looking for. Right? How many times throughout the race the 2nd place car drive around the leader. Bell did it, BK on Larson, and earlier in the race. 3 times?

And to this point, you may see it throughout the field. And if passes are registered in the way I think they are (change in position), then an inability to complete a pass (for the lead or in traffic) will register as a position change on the leader board if they continue to race side by side at the line.

A pass for 8th, which may take 12 laps, may register as as 3 passes, when it's really just one. This broken racing paints the illusion of competitive racing with more passing because of what the spreadsheet says.

But only if passes are registered as positional changes at the line. This is data without context and is an unreasonable way to challenge the idea that "drivers can't pass".

When you have drivers complain about it the inability to pass with specific reasons like corner speed, downforce and HP, and fans like yourself questioning the context of the data, it should be worth considering that it may not reflect the passing related issues these cars have.

There is totally a short track issue with this car. The passing numbers not reflecting that just means there are more things to look into. Why don't they match up?

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you aren't reading the data. Leader changes are only counted at the finish line
 

jaqua19

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My entire argument is under the assumption of the fact that positional changes are registered at the finish line. Lol.

I'm not sure how else to make this clear without painting a detailed scenario.

What I'm suggesting is a pass for the lead over the course of a 15 lap battle can register as multiple lead changes if they're stuck in an aero *can't complete pass* kind of battle. Trailing car works the leader over for 5 laps...leads by a half car length at the line on the inside...lead change! Side by side into turn 1. Outside car gets a run out of 2, clears the other car, re asserts the lead at the line, by a half car length...lead change again! This goes on and on for 10 more laps until that trailing car faster finally gets the lead and drives off.

In this scenario, we have multiple lead changes on paper...but what we really had on track was a faster car having extreme difficulty completing a pass. The data shows us 4, or 5 lead changes...the drivers and fans such as myself would say, this was one single lead change, with aero forced side by side racing. The numbers don't reflect the reality.

What I personally would like to see, and what I think would be much more error free, is lead change/pass data that is only registered when a car is clear at the line. Meaning that when recording the data (and not official running position), the pass is registered as complete at the line only when the trailing car is clear of the car that was ahead of him.

I think this would give us better passing numbers that are more reflective of the driver's complaints and the fans that share them.

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jaqua19

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My entire argument is under the assumption of the fact that positional changes are registered at the finish line. Lol.

I'm not sure how else to make this clear without painting a detailed scenario.

What I'm suggesting is a pass for the lead over the course of a 15 lap battle can register as multiple lead changes if they're stuck in an aero *can't complete pass* kind of battle. Trailing car works the leader over for 5 laps...leads by a half car length at the line on the inside...lead change! Side by side into turn 1. Outside car gets a run out of 2, clears the other car, re asserts the lead at the line, by a half car length...lead change again! This goes on and on for 10 more laps until that trailing car faster finally gets the lead and drives off.

In this scenario, we have multiple lead changes on paper...but what we really had on track was a faster car having extreme difficulty completing a pass. The data shows us 4, or 5 lead changes...the drivers and fans such as myself would say, this was one single lead change, with aero forced side by side racing. The numbers don't reflect the reality.

What I personally would like to see, and what I think would be much more error free, is lead change/pass data that is only registered when a car is clear at the line. Meaning that when recording the data (and not official running position), the pass is registered as complete at the line only when the trailing car is clear of the car that was ahead of him.

I think this would give us better passing numbers that are more reflective of the driver's complaints and the fans that share them.

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I know this isn't really relevant for the Bristol race here, as this hypothetical didn't play out. It's more in reference how it seems as though a battle can reflect more passing than what actually occured

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StandOnIt

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My entire argument is under the assumption of the fact that positional changes are registered at the finish line. Lol.

I'm not sure how else to make this clear without painting a detailed scenario.

What I'm suggesting is a pass for the lead over the course of a 15 lap battle can register as multiple lead changes if they're stuck in an aero *can't complete pass* kind of battle. Trailing car works the leader over for 5 laps...leads by a half car length at the line on the inside...lead change! Side by side into turn 1. Outside car gets a run out of 2, clears the other car, re asserts the lead at the line, by a half car length...lead change again! This goes on and on for 10 more laps until that trailing car faster finally gets the lead and drives off.

In this scenario, we have multiple lead changes on paper...but what we really had on track was a faster car having extreme difficulty completing a pass. The data shows us 4, or 5 lead changes...the drivers and fans such as myself would say, this was one single lead change, with aero forced side by side racing. The numbers don't reflect the reality.

What I personally would like to see, and what I think would be much more error free, is lead change/pass data that is only registered when a car is clear at the line. Meaning that when recording the data (and not official running position), the pass is registered as complete at the line only when the trailing car is clear of the car that was ahead of him.

I think this would give us better passing numbers that are more reflective of the driver's complaints and the fans that share them.

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As usual, writing a book to explain that passes are recorded at the start/finish line.
 

aunty dive

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Could have been.

Just think about the “glorious past” when 4 cars finished on the lead lap and the 5th place finisher was 2 laps down. 😇
 

TexasRaceLady

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Could have been.

Just think about the “glorious past” when 4 cars finished on the lead lap and the 5th place finisher was 2 laps down. 😇
Yes, plates were used. I'll never forget Dale Earnhardt coming out of a meeting when the decision was made. He was carrying a plate at arm's length with a disgusted look on his face.
 

BobbyFord

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Cale led all 500 laps at Bristol, no plate
985F0C12-FB1F-4F54-9845-75711A56E7B3.jpeg
 

BobbyFord

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Cale was a beast. I believe his saying was something along the lines of :just get it close" and he handled it from there

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I remember the races when I was a kid watching with my dad.
Cale is 83. Doesn’t seem real. Time ******* flies.
 

Magicmiler

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If my memory is correct it was a one time only thing for the plate at Loudon NH.

Kenny Irwin and Adam Petty both lost their lives recently at Loudon and Nascar was trying to reduce the corner entry speeds for safety reasons.
Pre COT days.
As a long timer @ Loudon, that was THE most boring race I've ever attended there.
The ride back home was more interesting...
 

Daytripper

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If my memory is correct it was a one time only thing for the plate at Loudon NH.

Kenny Irwin and Adam Petty both lost their lives recently at Loudon and Nascar was trying to reduce the corner entry speeds for safety reasons.
Pre COT days.

Yes, but it made for a boring race so who cares if people were dieing!
 

LewTheShoe

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It's been a tough year for Brad K and RFK Racing. One step forward; two steps back. I was bitterly disappointed when he blew that right front tire with victory almost within sight. Buescher bringing the 17 home was partial redemption, I guess. I still believe Brad's mission as owner/driver is a righteous quest.



Dang, Richard Childress is the common thread here. All RCR drivers - past, present, and future - you're out of the playoffs. All other drivers, you can advance to the next round. @Revman keeps insisting that Childress is the devil himself, so I guess it's just karma.


I don't see a reason to apologize.

And FWIW, the context you're speaking of is worth discussing. Green flag, completed passes for the lead on track are what you're looking for. Right? How many times throughout the race the 2nd place car drive around the leader. Bell did it, BK on Larson, and earlier in the race. 3 times?

And to this point, you may see it throughout the field. And if passes are registered in the way I think they are (change in position), then an inability to complete a pass (for the lead or in traffic) will register as a position change on the leader board if they continue to race side by side at the line.

A pass for 8th, which may take 12 laps, may register as as 3 passes, when it's really just one. This broken racing paints the illusion of competitive racing with more passing because of what the spreadsheet says.

But only if passes are registered as positional changes at the line. This is data without context and is an unreasonable way to challenge the idea that "drivers can't pass".

When you have drivers complain about it the inability to pass with specific reasons like corner speed, downforce and HP, and fans like yourself questioning the context of the data, it should be worth considering that it may not reflect the passing related issues these cars have.

There is totally a short track issue with this car. The passing numbers not reflecting that just means there are more things to look into. Why don't they match up?
But wait... the nostalgia buffs are always saying side-by-side racing is the Holy Grail of Nascar. And now you're saying side-by-side is bad racing. It's all so confusing. Is "beatin and bangin" bad also?
 

FLRacingFan

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Allmendinger quietly got another top 10. I understand AJ doesn’t really want to run full-time at this level again but he’d be a real playoff threat for Kaulig. He has 13 of their 58 total starts this year but with 5 of their 8 total Top 10s. Driver rating is about on par with Bubba’s and better than that of some playoff drivers like Dillon and Briscoe.
 

LiberyU24

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That rule is dumber that the spelling of my user name. Really is a stupid rule. So let's put less experience out there for 4 weeks. That's the way to improve safety? A driver can knock someone into a wall or send a car fly at the stands and don't get suspended for 4 week's. what's the difference? Oh the difference is the driver did it on purpose, the crew it was a mistake they didn't want to happen.
 

FLRacingFan

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“We have some sort of an instability in our valve train and it seems to be triggered by us running into NASCAR’s mandated rev limiter, interestingly enough,” Wilson said.

At Darlington, Busch missed an upshift from fourth to fifth gear, contributing to the engine failure. “He buzzed the rev limiter hard,” Wilson said, “and a lap-and-a-half later, his engine let go. Now, just to be clear, our stuff should be durable enough. It should be tough enough to handle that.

“At Bristol, NASCAR miscalculated the gear ratio. It was too short. When Kyle, particularly when he was running that upper groove in fifth gear, he was hitting the rev limiter, almost every lap. The fact is that right now we just don’t have enough durability margin in our valve train. That’s on us.”

 
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