Don't shoot the messenger

3wideinturn1 said:
I'm reading between the lines here...but is it safe to assume that Penske is very interested in the Menards sponsorship but perhaps not Paul Menard as a driver? Or is it a package deal no matter what?
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I think it is safe to assume it's a package deal . Don't think there is any way to move forward after Penske tells his friend Menard that his son is a bum . Menard , for his part is looking to put his son in a better situation , and we could all be surprised , like we were with Truex.
 
3wideinturn1 said:
I'm reading between the lines here...but is it safe to assume that Penske is very interested in the Menards sponsorship but perhaps not Paul Menard as a driver? Or is it a package deal no matter what?
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Paul ain't going anywhere without Dad's sponsorship and Dad ain't sponsoring any car that does not have his son as the driver.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
So, I guess the Newman move is a complete bust with news of his new multi-year RCR contract.
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Newman and HMS did have multiple talks. I think a lot of the "noise" (and there was substantial noise) was probably Newman's agent throwing around tidbits in order to help his deal with RCR. It's amazing how many rumors are spread based on contract negotiations and politics. I probably hear 3 things a week. Newman made little sense in the first place because of all the talk about Ty potentially going to the 13 (I haven't heard anything more about that). It's also just as likely that HMS chose to bring people in and float rumors just to leverage their contract negotiations with their drivers. It's shady, but that's how the game is played. Not just in NASCAR - all industries where contracts and agents and big money are involved. It's a chess match.

Here's a fun story (and good example of how "silly season" works)...when I was still working with Kurt, he interviewed with RPM prior to his contract extension with SHR. It was mostly supposed to be for leverage with SHR, but it actually got pretty serious. He legitimately thought about going there. His agent was STRONGLY against it, but he was really romanced by Petty, his history, the brands in their stable, etc. We actually did a white board session trying to figure out if it was a good move for him or not. Obviously you know what we landed on...but there was definitely a brief window of time when I legitimately thought he was going to RPM. At one point I received a text from a Sr guy at SHR saying "is KB seriously leaving???" and another text from a reporter asking if KB to RPM was real or not. I guess it served its original purpose. But I do still run into a VP at Medallion from time to time (they own RPM) and the first thing he always says is "we shoulda had Kurt!" It really was that close to happening. Apparently they put a pile of $$ in front of him.

Another fun rumor I couldn't talk about at the time was Truex to HMS and the #5. Those two spoke as well. It's the reason MTJ's contract extension took so long to get done, which was the reason the Erik Jones announcement took so long (FRR might not have needed two cars). Obviously we know how all that turned out. But there was definitely a period of legitimate uncertainty around Martin's return to the 78...and this was before he rattled off 3 wins in 5 races...
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Paul ain't going anywhere without Dad's sponsorship and Dad ain't sponsoring any car that does not have his son as the driver.
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Paul wants to retire soon. The deal that Penske was negotiating with Menards was to allow Paul to drive a third car for another year or two or three (however long he needed/wanted), while simultaneously grooming Blaney to take over the sponsorship for once Paul left.
 
Allenbaba said:
Paul wants to retire soon. The deal that Penske was negotiating with Menards was to allow Paul to drive a third car for another year or two or three (however long he needed/wanted), while simultaneously grooming Blaney to take over the sponsorship for once Paul left.
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It is funny to hear about Paul wanting to retire soon as he is a month younger than Martin Truex and has a similar number of race starts but it seems like Truex is just beginning his career with his recent successes.

Any success is good but it is a shame that both Truex and Harvick could not have experienced it earlier in their careers (Jimmie Johnson, Kyle Busch) as Truex will be 37 next year and Harvick will be 42 I believe. It doesn't seem that long ago that you were just getting a decent ride at 37 and settling in at 42.
 
Paul unlike any other driver in Nascar will soon have to stop playing and get more involved in the family business.
 
@Allenbaba I really appreciate the insider info, as hearing rumors within NASCAR is rare and the rumors that are heard are usually unreliable. It's a nice refresher to have good and reliable insider info. I do have a few questions.

How much tension is taking place between HMS and SHR? With SHR moving to Ford, will these tensions carry over onto the track? Also, is there some sort of unspoken agreement between teams of the same manufacturer not to rough one another up? Usually when we see on-track altercations, the teams involved have different manufacturers.

I saw in another post you mentioned that Kurt Busch almost legitimately went to RPM a few years ago, and that Truex almost went to the 5. Over the years, what are some deals that almost happened that outsiders didn't ever really hear about?

With Barney Visser stating he doesn't expect Erik Jones to stay at Furniture Row beyond 2017, what moves are expected to take place within the Toyota camp? Is Kenseth expected to retire after next year? Who replaces Jones? If it's Suarez, what does that bode for Carl Edwards' sponsorship?

Who is Cole Custer eventually expected to replace at SHR?

Also, does Tony Stewart only drive well upon will? This year he ran like a championship contender for a few weeks after his win at Sonoma, then proceeded to drop off again like nothing ever happened. Is there a real reason for this that is prominent at SHR?

Again, I really appreciate the insider info!
 
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WhiningSmoke said:
@Allenbaba.........,

Also, does Tony Stewart only drive well upon will? This year he ran like a championship contender for a few weeks after his win at Sonoma, then proceeded to drop off again like nothing ever happened. Is there a real reason for this that is prominent at SHR?

Again, I really appreciate the insider info!
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Wow , there is a lot of stuff in there , but I keep coming up with the same question , week after week . The question is , what percentage of the performance of a race car is due to the entire race shop and what percentage is due to the right foot of the driver?
 
ted@economy said:
Wow , there is a lot of stuff in there , but I keep coming up with the same question , week after week . The question is , what percentage of the performance of a race car is due to the entire race shop and what percentage is due to the right foot of the driver?
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I think that percentage varies between drivers and teams.
 
I agree Bobby, Dale E. was probably a 60/40, at least 55/45 Driver.
Jeff Gordon at most was a 55/45 and the same for Harvick at RCR. Right now i would say Harvick at best is 50/50. Edwards is about 48/52 for the car while Kenseth is 50/50.
Hamlin a bit less than Edwards as a driver, maybe 46/54. KK would be 42 and car 58.
Young Chase Elliot isn't far off 50/50.

I think the Penske drivers are better than their cars. JMO of course.
 
Team Penske said:
I agree Bobby, Dale E. was probably a 60/40, at least 55/45 Driver.
Jeff Gordon at most was a 55/45 and the same for Harvick at RCR. Right now i would say Harvick at best is 50/50. Edwards is about 48/52 for the car while Kenseth is 50/50.
Hamlin a bit less than Edwards as a driver, maybe 46/54. KK would be 42 and car 58.
Young Chase Elliot isn't far off 50/50.

I think the Penske drivers are better than their cars. JMO of course.
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I think Pense Fords ar obviously better that Roush Fords , and also the drivers are better . Has it been announced if SHR has Roush or Penske affiliation ?
 
ted@economy said:
I think Pense Fords ar obviously better that Roush Fords , and also the drivers are better . Has it been announced if SHR has Roush or Penske affiliation ?
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I thought they were going to build their own chassis and get roush Yates engines
 
ted@economy said:
I think Pense Fords ar obviously better that Roush Fords , and also the drivers are better . Has it been announced if SHR has Roush or Penske affiliation ?
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When Stewart-Haas Racing announced the move from Chevy to Ford, they also said they would build their own chassis. So I don't expect a technical affiliation with either Penske or RFR.
 
Appreciate the kind words. The problem with silly season (and rumors) is that lots of info is "unreliable"...even coming from inside the garage. There are so many games being played, it's tough to really put a finger on what's fact vs what's a smoke screen for other purposes (like interviewing a driver and sending out signals that he's your guy just to make the incumbent driver sign for less money. I believe that's what's been happening with the 5...but again, not based on fact, just actions).

I don't think there's much tension between SHR and HMS at the driver level...at least it doesn't feel different. I'm sure there's tension at the executive level. Maybe even some at the engineering/data share level as well, but I don't get involved in any of that stuff. I do think that there's a code within manufacturers. You don't ever want to be in their doghouse, they have a ton of influence. In this order, a driver wants himself to win the race, then a teammate, then someone of the same manufacturer, then someone who doesn't mess up the Chase for himself or a teammate, then "other."

I've heard so many rumors it would be impossible to know what actually came close to happening. I rarely post them here because most of them don't happen, and for lots of different reasons. Like I said, some are smokescreens, some the desire was there but they fall apart, others are just lies, or a bad game of drunk person telephone. One of the reasons I even mentioned the rumor of RC buying out Mears and putting Ty in that car is because that "initiative" went really far down the road two years ago (like, REALLY far down the road) so when it sprung up again when I was in Richmond, it was worth sharing. One thing I can tell you for certain...if MTJ hadn't been "let go" from MWR, Ryan Blaney was going to be in the 78. They were already preparing his contract when MTJ suddenly became available.

The whole problem with the Erik Jones thing is that Coach had 5 drivers signed, and only 4 cars to put them. EJ might stay more than one year at FRR...but only because they just can't vacate one of JGR's rides. If a seat does become available, then yes, EJ would go to JGR, and Suarez would go to the 77. Who would have vacated the JGR seat...I don't know. I think I mentioned this earlier, but if the second FRR car had fallen apart completely (and for about 2 or 3 weeks it was definitely on life support - credit David Wilson with the save) then Denny would have been out of a job. That much had already been determined as a contingency plan.

Things do change really quickly in the garage, sometimes for the craziest reasons. One minute Barney Visser is low-balling Kurt Busch on an extension with FRR because Kurt has no other options, the next minute Tony gets injured in a side project and Gene says "F*ck you" to Tony and creates a 4th car. There are also so many things taken to the "we need your signature on this paper now" level, then fall apart. Most of which are sponsor related - coming in to support a program or switching teams and taking drivers with them, etc. It's a stressful existence for sure.

I don't know what Cole's future is. I've never met him, but I've heard he's a pretty good kid. I have met his father...and that's all I'll say about that...

I think BobbyFord answered that last question well. It really does depend. A great setup (and that includes knowing what makes a great setup for your driver...every driver is different...some love it loose, some tight, some want no give in the steering, some you can turn the steering wheel completely all the way around and only move a foot on the track, etc) is the most important thing. If an elite team nails the setup, they're going to have a good day. I think where driver talent really comes into play the most is when the setup is missed, or other circumstances (bad tires, drastic weather conditions, etc) play a role. A talented driver will help you out of jams better than mediocre ones. It's really hard to win a race when "things go wrong" on your car...but a really talented driver will at least figure out how to get a top 10 out of the mess, where a less talented driver will finish 23rd,

The two teams I know most intimately in the garage are the 78 & the 41. If I could only steal ONE person from each team to take to my 4 car operation...it can be anyone...2 engineers, 2 crew chiefs, 2 drivers, gas man...etc...one person from each team...I would steal Cole Pearn and Kurt Busch. I think each one is the most important to their respective operations.
 

Thanks for sharing what you can or are willing to. It's called silly season for a reason and if things don't pan out, I'll still be watching on Sunday!

Also, I find it really interesting what you said about Kurt Busch. I'm curious if this is a new KuB, meaning before all the bad publicity which led to losing his ride, or has he always been very involved in the operations. Or were you just saying the guy is a really talented driver?

Wonder if he ends up being an owner someday.
 
LouieLouie said:
Thanks for sharing what you can or are willing to. It's called silly season for a reason and if things don't pan out, I'll still be watching on Sunday!

Also, I find it really interesting what you said about Kurt Busch. I'm curious if this is a new KuB, meaning before all the bad publicity which led to losing his ride, or has he always been very involved in the operations. Or were you just saying the guy is a really talented driver?

Wonder if he ends up being an owner someday.
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Kurt is very involved. He hangs around the shop, shows up to the garage early & leaves late, etc (I can only speak about his post Penske days). Listen to his radio feed one race. Few (if any) of the other drivers know more about the car than he does. Most drivers only report how it's handling. Kurt will often times report how it's handling, why he thinks it's handling that way, and most importantly, what changes he thinks need to be made. I highly doubt he'll ever be a team owner. At least not in NASCAR.
 
Allenbaba said:
Kurt is very involved. He hangs around the shop, shows up to the garage early & leaves late, etc (I can only speak about his post Penske days). Listen to his radio feed one race. Few (if any) of the other drivers know more about the car than he does. Most drivers only report how it's handling. Kurt will often times report how it's handling, why he thinks it's handling that way, and most importantly, what changes he thinks need to be made. I highly doubt he'll ever be a team owner. At least not in NASCAR.
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I'd love to hear your thoughts on Tony continuing on in his ownership role at SHR . I have the idea that Tony might rather be racing or tending to his El Dora stuff then coming into the shop everyday as a full time owner . Never was sure about the Hass / Stewart management team either . But maybe there is a book in there somewhere .:D
 
Allenbaba said:
Appreciate the kind words. The problem with silly season (and rumors) is that lots of info is "unreliable"...even coming from inside the garage. There are so many games being played, it's tough to really put a finger on what's fact vs what's a smoke screen for other purposes (like interviewing a driver and sending out signals that he's your guy just to make the incumbent driver sign for less money. I believe that's what's been happening with the 5...but again, not based on fact, just actions).

I don't think there's much tension between SHR and HMS at the driver level...at least it doesn't feel different. I'm sure there's tension at the executive level. Maybe even some at the engineering/data share level as well, but I don't get involved in any of that stuff. I do think that there's a code within manufacturers. You don't ever want to be in their doghouse, they have a ton of influence. In this order, a driver wants himself to win the race, then a teammate, then someone of the same manufacturer, then someone who doesn't mess up the Chase for himself or a teammate, then "other."

I've heard so many rumors it would be impossible to know what actually came close to happening. I rarely post them here because most of them don't happen, and for lots of different reasons. Like I said, some are smokescreens, some the desire was there but they fall apart, others are just lies, or a bad game of drunk person telephone. One of the reasons I even mentioned the rumor of RC buying out Mears and putting Ty in that car is because that "initiative" went really far down the road two years ago (like, REALLY far down the road) so when it sprung up again when I was in Richmond, it was worth sharing. One thing I can tell you for certain...if MTJ hadn't been "let go" from MWR, Ryan Blaney was going to be in the 78. They were already preparing his contract when MTJ suddenly became available.

The whole problem with the Erik Jones thing is that Coach had 5 drivers signed, and only 4 cars to put them. EJ might stay more than one year at FRR...but only because they just can't vacate one of JGR's rides. If a seat does become available, then yes, EJ would go to JGR, and Suarez would go to the 77. Who would have vacated the JGR seat...I don't know. I think I mentioned this earlier, but if the second FRR car had fallen apart completely (and for about 2 or 3 weeks it was definitely on life support - credit David Wilson with the save) then Denny would have been out of a job. That much had already been determined as a contingency plan.

Things do change really quickly in the garage, sometimes for the craziest reasons. One minute Barney Visser is low-balling Kurt Busch on an extension with FRR because Kurt has no other options, the next minute Tony gets injured in a side project and Gene says "F*ck you" to Tony and creates a 4th car. There are also so many things taken to the "we need your signature on this paper now" level, then fall apart. Most of which are sponsor related - coming in to support a program or switching teams and taking drivers with them, etc. It's a stressful existence for sure.

I don't know what Cole's future is. I've never met him, but I've heard he's a pretty good kid. I have met his father...and that's all I'll say about that...

I think BobbyFord answered that last question well. It really does depend. A great setup (and that includes knowing what makes a great setup for your driver...every driver is different...some love it loose, some tight, some want no give in the steering, some you can turn the steering wheel completely all the way around and only move a foot on the track, etc) is the most important thing. If an elite team nails the setup, they're going to have a good day. I think where driver talent really comes into play the most is when the setup is missed, or other circumstances (bad tires, drastic weather conditions, etc) play a role. A talented driver will help you out of jams better than mediocre ones. It's really hard to win a race when "things go wrong" on your car...but a really talented driver will at least figure out how to get a top 10 out of the mess, where a less talented driver will finish 23rd,

The two teams I know most intimately in the garage are the 78 & the 41. If I could only steal ONE person from each team to take to my 4 car operation...it can be anyone...2 engineers, 2 crew chiefs, 2 drivers, gas man...etc...one person from each team...I would steal Cole Pearn and Kurt Busch. I think each one is the most important to their respective operations.
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Wow Denny almost lost his ride. Hes made top ten company every season but the one when he broke his back. Talk about a tough environment. I wonder if his back is worse than they tell us? Maybe hes not contributing behind the scenes? Just not good enough?
 
Rick said:
Wow Denny almost lost his ride. Hes made top ten company every season but the one when he broke his back. Talk about a tough environment. I wonder if his back is worse than they tell us? Maybe hes not contributing behind the scenes? Just not good enough?
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That's really what struck me the most, that Dennys was ever in jeopardy of losing his ride.
 
I think Denny was in jeopardy at times because of his big mouth and many times he really hurt the sponsor with his actions. His dilemma with Brad ( bush series) being one and then going after Joey as soon as Joey departed from JGR.
 
Allenbaba said:
Appreciate the kind words. The problem with silly season (and rumors) is that lots of info is "unreliable"...even coming from inside the garage. There are so many games being played, it's tough to really put a finger on what's fact vs what's a smoke screen for other purposes (like interviewing a driver and sending out signals that he's your guy just to make the incumbent driver sign for less money. I believe that's what's been happening with the 5...but again, not based on fact, just actions).

I don't think there's much tension between SHR and HMS at the driver level...at least it doesn't feel different. I'm sure there's tension at the executive level. Maybe even some at the engineering/data share level as well, but I don't get involved in any of that stuff. I do think that there's a code within manufacturers. You don't ever want to be in their doghouse, they have a ton of influence. In this order, a driver wants himself to win the race, then a teammate, then someone of the same manufacturer, then someone who doesn't mess up the Chase for himself or a teammate, then "other."

I've heard so many rumors it would be impossible to know what actually came close to happening. I rarely post them here because most of them don't happen, and for lots of different reasons. Like I said, some are smokescreens, some the desire was there but they fall apart, others are just lies, or a bad game of drunk person telephone. One of the reasons I even mentioned the rumor of RC buying out Mears and putting Ty in that car is because that "initiative" went really far down the road two years ago (like, REALLY far down the road) so when it sprung up again when I was in Richmond, it was worth sharing. One thing I can tell you for certain...if MTJ hadn't been "let go" from MWR, Ryan Blaney was going to be in the 78. They were already preparing his contract when MTJ suddenly became available.

The whole problem with the Erik Jones thing is that Coach had 5 drivers signed, and only 4 cars to put them. EJ might stay more than one year at FRR...but only because they just can't vacate one of JGR's rides. If a seat does become available, then yes, EJ would go to JGR, and Suarez would go to the 77. Who would have vacated the JGR seat...I don't know. I think I mentioned this earlier, but if the second FRR car had fallen apart completely (and for about 2 or 3 weeks it was definitely on life support - credit David Wilson with the save) then Denny would have been out of a job. That much had already been determined as a contingency plan.

Things do change really quickly in the garage, sometimes for the craziest reasons. One minute Barney Visser is low-balling Kurt Busch on an extension with FRR because Kurt has no other options, the next minute Tony gets injured in a side project and Gene says "F*ck you" to Tony and creates a 4th car. There are also so many things taken to the "we need your signature on this paper now" level, then fall apart. Most of which are sponsor related - coming in to support a program or switching teams and taking drivers with them, etc. It's a stressful existence for sure.

I don't know what Cole's future is. I've never met him, but I've heard he's a pretty good kid. I have met his father...and that's all I'll say about that...

I think BobbyFord answered that last question well. It really does depend. A great setup (and that includes knowing what makes a great setup for your driver...every driver is different...some love it loose, some tight, some want no give in the steering, some you can turn the steering wheel completely all the way around and only move a foot on the track, etc) is the most important thing. If an elite team nails the setup, they're going to have a good day. I think where driver talent really comes into play the most is when the setup is missed, or other circumstances (bad tires, drastic weather conditions, etc) play a role. A talented driver will help you out of jams better than mediocre ones. It's really hard to win a race when "things go wrong" on your car...but a really talented driver will at least figure out how to get a top 10 out of the mess, where a less talented driver will finish 23rd,

The two teams I know most intimately in the garage are the 78 & the 41. If I could only steal ONE person from each team to take to my 4 car operation...it can be anyone...2 engineers, 2 crew chiefs, 2 drivers, gas man...etc...one person from each team...I would steal Cole Pearn and Kurt Busch. I think each one is the most important to their respective operations.
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what I see is shocking is they would have canned denny to put eric in the car. if the second FRR car hadn't been created. don't get me wrong I can't stand denny he comes off as arrogant and spoiled, but the guy does have 29 wins and is good for 1-4+ wins a season. he is probably good for another dozen or so wins before he starts to slow down due to age. that is knocking on the door of 50 wins I can't imagine letting go a driver that performs to that level.
 
On the surface it does seem shocking that a driver of Denny Hamlin's caliber would be faced with losing his ride. (I also don't care for him personally). But Gibbs has built quite the super team, and there are only four official seats allowed. They view Jones as a future cornerstone, and it is understandable that they'd make room rather than lose him like Hendrick lost Brad K.

I would guess that Denny is low man on the totem pole there because he is viewed as a bit more fragile physically, and frankly, psychologically. Carl Edwards is a couple years older, but it's easier to see him racing well into his 40s than Hamlin, who has had a couple recurring injury problems. Edwards is also more marketable.

Wouldn't it perhaps make more sense to push Kenseth out if absolutely necessary, as he can't have more than 2-3 years left? However, they may view Kenseth as more likely to survive the Chase and claim a title.

I'm surprised NASCAR hasn't done a bit more to discourage the JGR / FRR alliance becoming such a naked run around the four car limit. I guess they didn't do anything about Blaney being parked with the Wood Brothers either (which wasn't a four car problem, just sponsorship woes I guess). But really, what's the point of having the limit if you're going to look the other way at what would be defined as collusion between owners in any other sports context? It's one thing to have technical alliances and such, but when you start loaning your prospects to other teams with the stipulation that you can take them back later, that's just plain anti-competitive collusion. It leaves a sour taste.
 
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gnomesayin said:
On the surface it does seem shocking that a driver of Denny Hamlin's caliber would be faced with losing his ride. (I also don't care for him personally). But Gibbs has built quite the super team, and there are only four official seats allowed. They view Jones as a future cornerstone, and it is understandable that they'd make room rather than lose him like Hendrick lost Brad K.

I would guess that Denny is low man on the totem pole there because he is viewed as a bit more fragile physically, and frankly, psychologically. Carl Edwards is a couple years older, but it's easier to see him racing well into his 40s than Hamlin, who has had a couple recurring injury problems. Edwards is also more marketable.

Wouldn't it perhaps make more sense to push Kenseth out if absolutely necessary, as he can't have more than 2-3 years left? However, they may view Kenseth as more likely to survive the Chase and claim a title.

I'm surprised NASCAR hasn't done a bit more to discourage the JGR / FRR alliance becoming such a naked run around the four car limit. I guess they didn't do anything about Blaney being parked with the Wood Brothers either (which wasn't a four car problem, just sponsorship woes I guess). But really, what's the point of having the limit if you're going to look the other way at what would be defined as collusion between owners in any other sports context? It's one thing to have technical alliances and such, but when you start loaning your prospects to other teams with the stipulation that you can take them back later, that's just plain anti-competitive collusion. It leaves a sour taste.
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How is this any different from other teams running HMS equipment and sharing technology? Are you saying NASCAR shouldn't allow teams to sell chassis, motors to other teams and exchange tech info?
How would the smaller teams survive when they can't afford to build their own chassis' or run a full-on motor program?
 
Team Penske said:
I think Denny was in jeopardy at times because of his big mouth and many times he really hurt the sponsor with his actions. His dilemma with Brad ( bush series) being one and then going after Joey as soon as Joey departed from JGR.
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I think Denny was in jeopardy because he misses races for things like metal in his eye and jumps out of a car because of back spasms/stiff necks. I mean, really? Golf game looks good, however. He is as fast as anyone at JGR. He has his CC. Results are not different.
 
Denny's not exactly the most popular guy within the JGR organization. Coach is okay with him, FedEx likes to golf with him, and Toyota doesn't hate him. That's kinda the only three boxes he needs to check. Other than that, I doubt he's had many company wide birthday parties (but...his going away party would be off the chain).
 
gnomesayin said:
I'm surprised NASCAR hasn't done a bit more to discourage the JGR / FRR alliance becoming such a naked run around the four car limit. I guess they didn't do anything about Blaney being parked with the Wood Brothers either (which wasn't a four car problem, just sponsorship woes I guess). But really, what's the point of having the limit if you're going to look the other way at what would be defined as collusion between owners in any other sports context? It's one thing to have technical alliances and such, but when you start loaning your prospects to other teams with the stipulation that you can take them back later, that's just plain anti-competitive collusion. It leaves a sour taste.
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I agree that the Gibbs end run around the four-car limit is a deal that leaves a sour taste in my mouth, particularly in light of @Allenbaba posting that Gibbs is financially on the hook for the costs of operating that 77 car.

I don't personally have a problem with the Penske/Wood Bros relationship, as it doesn't exceed four cars. Same thing with Roush setting up Chris Buescher in the 34 at Front Row, doesn't bother me as the 34 is effectively Roush's fourth entry albeit temporary. I view these collaborations as addressing sponsorship shortfalls rather than seeking to sneak through a fifth car.

BobbyFord said:
How is this any different from other teams running HMS equipment and sharing technology? Are you saying NASCAR shouldn't allow teams to sell chassis, motors to other teams and exchange tech info?
How would the smaller teams survive when they can't afford to build their own chassis' or run a full-on motor program?
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I don't think anyone has said Nascar should object to selling chassis or exchanging technical information. The difference is that the Furniture Row 77 doesn't have an arms length relationship with Gibbs, but rather is a de facto Gibbs team including financial responsibility, which exists to circumvent the four-car rule. Read here.
 
^ You don't think Penske has financial responsibilities to the Wood Brothers # 21?

The 5th car argument is a red herring.
 
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