Elliott DQ'd in snowball derby

E

ElliottFan

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http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2013/12/erik_jones_gets_second_straigh.htm
Thought I would go ahead and post this and take the wrath of the forum. Looks like the car had a piece of tungsten in it instead of lead. Tungsten is allowed at certain tracks though from my understanding of the rules.
Could have been an over sight but probably not imo. At least they dont hand down fines at this level and ban you for life or something.

I am glad they pushed the limits and will continue to be a Chase Elliott fan. This has no bearing on me as a fan what so ever.
 
Love it :partytime:partytime:partytime Kyles car wins it :headbang:and passes post race

Put that in yer pipe and smoke it Johali :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
ElliottFan said:
I think it was KB who ratted them out but cant say for sure.
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Yah I bet Kyle crawled around under that car all night to find something wrong ----------- even hired a metallurgist to test the alloy in the weights :laugh:
 
I think this situation shines a light on what goes on during the development of famous/well connected kids who come up through the sport. they are often in far superior equipment. if these guys were rolling tungsten ballast one has to ask what else trick was on the car?? the fact that this car was SOOO much faster than other cars tells me these guys really put some money into the car. I suppose this sort of thing is a big deal because a win in this race would help secure sponsorship in truck or possibly NW. kevin harvicks comments about the dillon kids is what got me thinking about this sort of thing. There are so many guys out there with limited means who are alot more deserving of a chance. anymore all the new guys coming into the sport are having to bring money to the table. maybe thats why its been a while since we have seen anyone that good come into the sport.
 
I've become a Chase Elliott fan over the past few weeks. He's a badass behind the wheel. For the most part, I always looked over him because he's been in great equipment and, a lot of times, that does take away from a driver in terms of reputation. I talked to him a few times over the weekend and, honestly, I expected a lot of ego. Elliott, like Larson, was very humble and well mannered and he composed himself well all weekend.

It's going to be a lot of fun in five years watching Kyle Larson, Erik Jones, Chase Elliott, Ryan Blaney and so many of these other kids make Sprint Cup racing fun again.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
I've become a Chase Elliott fan over the past few weeks. He's a badass behind the wheel. For the most part, I always looked over him because he's been in great equipment and, a lot of times, that does take away from a driver in terms of reputation. I talked to him a few times over the weekend and, honestly, I expected a lot of ego. Elliott, like Larson, was very humble and well mannered and he composed himself well all weekend.

It's going to be a lot of fun in five years watching Kyle Larson, Erik Jones, Chase Elliott, Ryan Blaney and so many of these other kids make Sprint Cup racing fun again.
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I honestly believe he is a good kid that is well grounded. His Dad and his connections can only take him so far anyway. I know his Dad is somewhat famous in the nascar circles but Bill is just a regular guy with a tremendous work ethic. He has not forgot where he came from or who helped him along the way I promise. Your right that it will be a lot of fun to watch these kids in the future because there is a lot of talent in the bunch you mentioned.
 
I think all of the young guys that race each other in the lower series' are very talented and aggressive drivers .But yes , in the end , the ones that can bring and attract sponsorship will be the ones who make it in the top level. It is a fact of life today but it doesn't necessarily mean they have taken a seat away from a MORE deserving driver . Besides , in spite of their money , ALL of these drivers won't make it to cup , there simply isn't room for them.
 
By the way , I was born before tungston was invented . Can someone tell me why it is better than lead weight .
 
ted@economy said:
By the way , I was born before tungston was invented . Can someone tell me why it is better than lead weight .
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More dense or weight per mass size, easier to mount than led and you can drill holes and mount better.I
This helps to better offset weight to the leftside, more solidly in more precise location(s).

Disclaimer: I have only worked a little with led. Prior to this weekend I thought Tungstein was just famous for his theorem on oral communication with the ladies. So if someone speaks up with actual experience listen to them first.
 
I was at this summers Pocono ARCA race. Chase Elliot started in the back in about 6 laps he was leading. That car he was driving even had a different sound to it like he had 50 more HP. I realize about 75% of the ARCA field is running garbage and can't even finish the race........but there's something to be said about privileged rich kids driving superior equipment.
 
There was no performance advantage. The only reason tungsten is banned is because it's expensive and they are trying to keep costs down. The weight of the car was legal. It's very easy to see how an obscure rule like that could be overlooked.
 
Marty D said:
I was at this summers Pocono ARCA race. Chase Elliot started in the back in about 6 laps he was leading. That car he was driving even had a different sound to it like he had 50 more HP. I realize about 75% of the ARCA field is running garbage and can't even finish the race........but there's something to be said about privileged rich kids driving superior equipment.
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He started dead last at the All American 400 late model race at Nashville and won that too.
 
Matthew2470 said:
There was no performance advantage. The only reason tungsten is banned is because it's expensive and they are trying to keep costs down. The weight of the car was legal. It's very easy to see how an obscure rule like that could be overlooked.
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If there is no advantages to led they would have used led since it more universally accepted in order to avoid the risk of a DQ.

Balancing the offset weight is critical to better speed and tire ware. I doubt that it was an oversight regardless of any claims of innocence.
 
If the car was scaled and legal and if the weight was in the prescribed place and fastened accordingly I don't see the problem. Does the rule book state that any weight must be lead?
 
Greg said:
More dense or weight per mass size, easier to mount than led and you can drill holes and mount better.I
This helps to better offset weight to the leftside, more solidly in more precise location(s).

Disclaimer: I have only worked a little with led. Prior to this weekend I thought Tungstein was just famous for his theorem on oral communication with the ladies. So if someone speaks up with actual experience listen to them first.
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LOL thats funny right there, I don't care who you are!!:p
 
Bobw said:
If the car was scaled and legal and if the weight was in the prescribed place and fastened accordingly I don't see the problem. Does the rule book state that any weight must be lead?
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From what I've been told about tungsten, it is an advantage. How much, I really don't know. Regardless, it isn't allowed. Rules are rules and Chase was disqualified. I'm sure this throws his win in the Snowflake 100 in to question but he had a damn good car in that race as well.

What I find ironic is that so many people were talking about how the track plays favorites and won't penalize Chase Elliott and this and that then he ends up being disqualified.
 
So....,you can't just have your wife sit in the back seat anymore ?
 
Greg said:
From the following link:
"Tungsten is strictly outlawed in the Snowball Derby rulebook and is typed in boldfaced print."
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Thanks, that answers that question.
Now another, what weighs more, ten pounds of lead or ten pounds of tungsten?:rolleyes:
 
Bobw said:
Thanks, that answers that question.
Now another, what weighs more, ten pounds of lead or ten pounds of tungsten?:rolleyes:
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It is obviously didnt measure out to equal terms for the 9 team. They chose to violate a rule that was written in bold print, rather than using a common stock Led component.

I cant read minds and intentions, but I do find oversight or carelessness to be impossible to believe.
For a team with as much resources I have to believe every bolted on piece went on with plenty of prescribed supervision.
 
I do respect the way Chase has handled matters. To the best of my knowledge no big pouting, blame or crying.
 
None of these kids got to where they are so quickly by driving junk. The fact that they even had tungsten available tells a story. The illegal weight probably cost more than some of the back markers engines. There are so many talented drivers out there that we will never see, lots of them are probably playing a video game right about now and working at a burger joint or something :(
 
Kyle18fan said:
None of these kids got to where they are so quickly by driving junk. The fact that they even had tungsten available tells a story. The illegal weight probably cost more than some of the back markers engines. There are so many talented drivers out there that we will never see, lots of them are probably playing a video game right about now and working at a burger joint or something :(
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Sadly it's been that way for a while, and not likely to ever change. That's part of why the competition is so watered down, because of sponsorship there is little driver turnover even if the driver sucks (Paul Menard, Danica Patrick) and really talented young drivers can only move up to cup if they choose a lower tier ride (Kligerman, Cole Whitt, possibly Alex Bowman). The only solution is to lower prices on sponsoring these cars (since the argument is that the economy is struggling) and make the cars and equipment cheaper. Oh, and actually allowing teams to work on and adjust the cars might help too. :p
 
Kyle18fan said:
None of these kids got to where they are so quickly by driving junk. The fact that they even had tungsten available tells a story. The illegal weight probably cost more than some of the back markers engines. There are so many talented drivers out there that we will never see, lots of them are probably playing a video game right about now and working at a burger joint or something :(
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Well Elliott isn't that talented when it comes to cheating. Even I, listening to the race on the internet thought something was fishy. Yeah, it is a lower tier series, competition isn't as stiff and all that, but damn, Elliott more then once just ran off and left everybody including other high buck high talent teams. Reminded me of watching a race in the late 70's. Elliott needs to get a whole lot better at cheating, it was obvious the 9 was all jacked up on something. I would bet on a good teardown, it would be more than tungsten that was illegal.
 
Pretty good explination on Moody's website how the tungsten vs. lead can be an advantage.....

In many race cars, ballast is inserted into chassis frame rails in blocks that are approximately 2 5/8 inches x 3 5/8 inches. In that configuration, a 25- pound block of tungsten measures approximately 3.75″ long, while 25 pounds of lead is nearly 6.5″ long. Concentrating more weight in less space allows more precise chassis adjustment, and in a division where left-side weight percentage is regulated with a fine-toothed comb, there is no such thing as an inconsequential advantage. Roll center and center of gravity can also be more precisely set with tungsten than lead, giving teams even more of a handling edge.

Read the whole article here.
 
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StandOnIt said:
Well Elliott isn't that talented when it comes to cheating. Even I, listening to the race on the internet thought something was fishy. Yeah, it is a lower tier series, competition isn't as stiff and all that, but damn, Elliott more then once just ran off and left everybody including other high buck high talent teams. Reminded me of watching a race in the late 70's. Elliott needs to get a whole lot better at cheating, it was obvious the 9 was all jacked up on something. I would bet on a good teardown, it would be more than tungsten that was illegal.
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I agree that there was more to it than just the weights. The rest of the car may have been within the rules but I bet the budget was enormous. The KBM car probably had some good pieces on it as well, Im sure Kyle entered that car for one reason and that would be to win.
 
StandOnIt said:
Well Elliott isn't that talented when it comes to cheating. Even I, listening to the race on the internet thought something was fishy. Yeah, it is a lower tier series, competition isn't as stiff and all that, but damn, Elliott more then once just ran off and left everybody including other high buck high talent teams. Reminded me of watching a race in the late 70's. Elliott needs to get a whole lot better at cheating, it was obvious the 9 was all jacked up on something. I would bet on a good teardown, it would be more than tungsten that was illegal.
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You aren't the only one. I was out at dinner on Saturday night with a few other reporters and we were taking guesses at who would win and the general feeling everyone had was that the race winner was going to get disqualified. One of these days, Ricky Brooks is going to disqualify the entire field.
 
Nobody will remember this when Elliott becomes the next star. It's a bummer to have a win taken away, but he kinda reminds me of Kyle Busch
 
remember that when a guy gets to cup or to an extent NW these advantages in lower tiers will go away. If a guy is running away from the field in ARCA or late models something is up with the car. put the guy in regular equipment and see what they do.
 
Greg said:
If there is no advantages to led they would have used led since it more universally accepted in order to avoid the risk of a DQ.

Balancing the offset weight is critical to better speed and tire ware. I doubt that it was an oversight regardless of any claims of innocence.
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Again, it was banned to keep costs down. It's 15x the cost of lead. It's a better material to work with than lead but offers no real performance advantage. It's very safe to say that Tungsten had nothing to do with Chase winning. However, it is was against the rules and the DQ was the correct call.
 
I'll point back to post #31 for those that didn't read for the explanation as to how tungsten can be used to gain an advantage.
 
Matthew2470 said:
Again, it was banned to keep costs down. It's 15x the cost of lead. It's a better material to work with than lead but offers no real performance advantage. It's very safe to say that Tungsten had nothing to do with Chase winning. However, it is was against the rules and the DQ was the correct call.
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Agree with all but the no performance advantage. Being able to put the weight at an exact location is an advantage, when trying to control weight transfer. I cant draw pictures but imagine balancing or prescribing the weight to an exact location. Obviosly a low spot on the left side is advantageous. If that piece is bigger (led) and takes up more space and harder to mount due to the properties you will have to make compromises that tungsten doesnt require.
Take it a step further if you were to put all four tires on individual scales you would see the weight distribution (percentages)move for all four by moving the tungsten or led. If you are trying nail an exact predictable percentage for all four, the small and more connectable piece will minimize your tolerances (= net performance advantage).

To the best of knowledge the Elliott camp hasnt said much and they accepted DQ honourably. But I still am not buying the oversight claims.
Racing people are insane about preparation, you will have a hard time find any group more freakishly OCD. They knew what they were unloading and running.

And suppose no advantages are in play or all things are equal as you claim, then just use the led (regardless of $). If a CC believes your logic they would be a poor manager for choosing a component that isnt universally accepted like traditional led. They are not that dumb.

They just rolled the diced and got busted.
 
Like so many other instances , the term 'competitive advantage ' can be used to describe anything from a quarter pound of air pressure to an extra 50 hp in the engine . Both sides of the argument are likely correct , but the difference between ten pounds of lead and ten pounds of tungsten is pretty small. IMO
 
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