Elliott DQ'd in snowball derby

http://www.buildingspeed.org/blog/2...d-in-the-snowball-derby/?cb=09295254505705088

[Snip] (mash link above to read the whole thang )

"This is important because the weight distribution makes a huge difference in how a car handles. The weight pushing each tire into the track creates grip. The more weight pushing down on a tire, the more grip it has. Using a denser weight, like tungsten, allows you to more precisely place the weight. That allows you to do things like lower the center of gravity, or shift the weight from left to right and front to back in a way you can’t do with the physically larger piece of lead "
 
Ted doesn't get that. If he had listened to the race, on long runs, Elliott would be a half a lap or more ahead of second, crew member falls down and he comes out back in the pack after the pit..no problem, he is in the lead and pulling away in five laps. About like a cup car running in ARCA
 
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"the best thing was you could mount this one bar of tungsten in a small exact area to get the side weights/ corner weights were you needed them. But with lead it would take the entire side framerail to get the same effect thus effecting the whole side and front/ rear corner weights! "
^
[snip]
^ http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/all-racing-talk/106052-ballast-weight-lead-vs-tungsten.html

Even soapbox racers know tungsten provides a performance advantage
^ http://www.pinewoodprofessor.com/weight.html
 
ted@economy said:
Like so many other instances , the term 'competitive advantage ' can be used to describe anything from a quarter pound of air pressure to an extra 50 hp in the engine . Both sides of the argument are likely correct , but the difference between ten pounds of lead and ten pounds of tungsten is pretty small. IMO
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but you didn't write the rules.
 
BOWTIE GUY said:
but you didn't write the rules.
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The fact that there is no governing body to enforce the rules is a joke. Snowball is the only event where the winner is thrown out. Cheapens the race because we all know chase elliott won. (I'm an Erik Jones fan too btw)
 
DaBiff1618 said:
The fact that there is no governing body to enforce the rules is a joke. Snowball is the only event where the winner is thrown out. Cheapens the race because we all know chase elliott won. (I'm an Erik Jones fan too btw)
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So, if you cheat, you should be allowed to keep the win? Obviously, I disagree. I wish NASCAR would disqualify drivers on the Cup level. The Snowball does it right IMO.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
So, if you cheat, you should be allowed to keep the win? Obviously, I disagree. I wish NASCAR would disqualify drivers on the Cup level. The Snowball does it right IMO.
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So erik jones got the trophy handed to him after the race in front of 10 people, knowing he never led a lap and finished 2nd. You don't think that hurts the events credibility? And they didn't find anything wrong with his car in pre race inspection, they should be more thorough before the race if anything. Dock him the winnings or whatever, but he won the race. We all have eyes and saw who really won the race. And teams have skirted the edge and bended the rules throughout racing history. That's just part of the sport. The 48 has made a career of this
 
DaBiff1618 said:
So erik jones got the trophy handed to him after the race in front of 10 people, knowing he never led a lap and finished 2nd. You don't think that hurts the events credibility? And they didn't find anything wrong with his car in pre race inspection, they should be more thorough before the race if anything. Dock him the winnings or whatever, but he won the race. We all have eyes and saw who really won the race. And teams have skirted the edge and bended the rules throughout racing history. That's just part of the sport. The 48 has made a career of this
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Docking money doesn't work that way. Tungsten is against the Snowball Derby rules and is written in bold print. So we're not talking about your typical NASCAR infraction - we're talking about a malignant foul which was pointed out in the rules pretty explicitly. And nobody buys the "oversight" story. And some of us were actually there.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Docking money doesn't work that way. Tungsten is against the Snowball Derby rules and is written in bold print. So we're not talking about your typical NASCAR infraction - we're talking about a malignant foul which was pointed out in the rules pretty explicitly. And nobody buys the "oversight" story. And some of us were actually there.
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So how did the 9 pass pre race inspection? And you don't think having the winner disqualified every other year is bad for the event?
 
DaBiff1618 said:
So erik jones got the trophy handed to him after the race in front of 10 people, knowing he never led a lap and finished 2nd. You don't think that hurts the events credibility? And they didn't find anything wrong with his car in pre race inspection, they should be more thorough before the race if anything. Dock him the winnings or whatever, but he won the race. We all have eyes and saw who really won the race. And teams have skirted the edge and bended the rules throughout racing history. That's just part of the sport. The 48 has made a career of this
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I kinda agree with DaBiff . Assuming nearly everyone would cut a corner to win , taking wins away really does make it hard for fans who watched the race . Nobody knows who is going to win till the officials sit down later and decide who cheated the least.? Who's watching the officials? Fine him , like they do in Nascar.
 
ted@economy said:
I kinda agree with DaBiff . Assuming nearly everyone would cut a corner to win , taking wins away really does make it hard for fans who watched the race . Nobody knows who is going to win till the officials sit down later and decide who cheated the least.? Who's watching the officials? Fine him , like they do in Nascar.
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It stands to reason that they looked for Tungsten in Jones car too. Hence we are assured that he didnt violate the rule in bold face print.

We could go on to eternity with a good debate about bending the rules. I dont blame Elliott's camp for trying to use it, imo it ain't cheating until you are caught. Racers should take every advantage they can find, if they dont tech it, abuse it.

But it is a calculated risk, it is the promoters or the sanction bodies job to maintain their credibility.
As far as blemishing the event with the DQ, people that paid and attended walk away with their memories of how the race went down or ran, thats the substance. Which was dominated by a car with a little bit of an advantage. Without the Tungsten the race for the win would have been settled on the track, and most likely with more suspense up front.

The event is enduring as one of the most prestigious short track events on the country. Routinely attracting big name drivers wanting to have a win recorded among a list of other great drivers. I would say the track knows how to maintain credibility.

Last of all good promotors in most cases will ban parts that only a few can afford. When they do and then they go extra mile to insure communication with bold face print, what else can they do?

What would you do? Would look at the other 30 plus entries that respected the warning and tell them the bold face print nothing. That is the biggest credibility issue.
 
Greg said:
It stands to reason that they looked for Tungsten in Jones car too. Hence we are assured that he didnt violate the rule in bold face print.

We could go on to eternity with a good debate about bending the rules. I dont blame Elliott's camp for trying to use it, imo it ain't cheating until you are caught. Racers should take every advantage they can find, if they dont tech it, abuse it.

But it is a calculated risk, it is the promoters or the sanction bodies job to maintain their credibility.
As far as blemishing the event with the DQ, people that paid and attended walk away with their memories of how the race went down or ran, thats the substance. Which was dominated by a car with a little bit of an advantage. Without the Tungsten the race for the win would have been settled on the track, and most likely with more suspense up front.

The event is enduring as one of the most prestigious short track events on the country. Routinely attracting big name drivers wanting to have a win recorded among a list of other great drivers. I would say the track knows how to maintain credibility.

Last of all good promotors in most cases will ban parts that only a few can afford. When they do and then they go extra mile to insure communication with bold face print, what else can they do?

What would you do? Would look at the other 30 plus entries that respected the warning and tell them the bold face print nothing. That is the biggest credibility issue.
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All that you say is very true , and I don't know that I wouldn't do the same thing . It must piss the officials off to see cars presented with things that are specifically banned . That said , I like Nascar's way of policing better . Especially when so much is at stake .
 
ted@economy said:
I kinda agree with DaBiff . Assuming nearly everyone would cut a corner to win , taking wins away really does make it hard for fans who watched the race . Nobody knows who is going to win till the officials sit down later and decide who cheated the least.? Who's watching the officials? Fine him , like they do in Nascar.
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It's the Snowball Derby. Everyone knows what to expect since disqualifications have become quite common in that race.

Fining people in that race isn't the same as in NASCAR. NASCAR takes points away (which they can't do in the Snowball) and essentially strips the driver of the win without actually doing so. And NASCAR needs to do that IMO. If someone won the Daytona 500 and was found to have been cheating, they absolutely should be stripped of that win. The money doesn't matter to Chase Elliott. If that's all they did, he'd still go down as the man who had a clean sweep on the weekend.
 
The tungsten was in the frame rail between 2 pieces of lead so it went un-noticed -------------- thats the story I read
 
Kyle18fan said:
The tungsten was in the frame rail between 2 pieces of lead so it went un-noticed -------------- thats the story I read
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And it was in the right side frame rail. Looks like me if you were trying to cheat you would have put it in the left side for better weight distribution. It truly sounds like to me it was just a dumb mistake and over looked by the team.
 
ElliottFan said:
And it was in the right side frame rail. Looks like me if you were trying to cheat you would have put it in the left side for better weight distribution. It truly sounds like to me it was just a dumb mistake and over looked by the team.
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It really does sound totally innocent to me too.
 
Kyle18fan said:
It really does sound totally innocent to me too.
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I'm not saying that using the tungsten gave them that much of an advantage, and im not saying that they should have had their win taken away from them. But, when you deliberately do or use something that is against a written rule then it is not innocent, and you should receive some sort of a punishment.
 
ElliottFan said:
And it was in the right side frame rail. Looks like me if you were trying to cheat you would have put it in the left side for better weight distribution. It truly sounds like to me it was just a dumb mistake and over looked by the team.
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I agree that minmizing RS weight percentage is the goal. But there is usually a minimum right side weight rule that prevents radical extremes.
So a good counter measure is to build light and offset to the left as much as possibile. Then use the Tungsten on left on for better handling. But if there is a right side minimum percentage rule (maybe 40, 45, or 48 percent), the Tungsten is still advantages for reasons already stated.

There can be no doubt that they didnt scale out the car prior and knew what they bringing to the track. If it was a rag tag outfit just getting by, I would be more inclined to believe a careless error could be a factor. But even in a case like that, if there was "mystery" tungsten on the right, their scale readings should have tipped off any experienced team rag tag, or well financed. They already have a base line, if the scales are giving a crazy reading that defies your prior knowledge, they would have rooted out the problem.
They didnt show up for such a big event haphazardly, or uunprepared.(All of the above is just my opinion ).
 
Zerkfitting said:
If Smokey Yunick does it, it is innovation; if Chad does it, it is cheating.
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in Smokeys day they called it cheating too :) I can remember people talking about it back then. Some day Chad will be remembered as a great innovator I bet.
 
One of my favorite Smokey stories. It would have been hilarious to see the looks on the officials faces when he drove away.

Another Yunick improvisation was getting around the regulations specifying a maximum size for the fuel tank, by using 11-foot (3 meter) coils of 2-inch (5-centimeter) diameter tubing for the fuel line to add about 5 gallons (19 liters) to the car's fuel capacity. Once, NASCAR officials came up with a list of nine items for Yunick to fix before the car would be allowed on the track. The suspicious NASCAR officials had removed the tank for inspection. Yunick started the car with no gas tank and said "Better make it ten,"[3] and drove it back to the pits. He used a basketball in the fuel tank which could be inflated when the car's fuel capacity was checked and deflated for the race.
 
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This kid can drive. I watched a couple years back go toe to toe with K*le B*sh at Berlin Raceway here in Grand Rapids. B*sh knew he was there.
 
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