Good Time To Set A Precedence

M

MELROSEMAFIA

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I hope the members of the appeal board grow some stones and teach NASCRAP a lesson.This is getting waaaay out of hand...here's what they should do...Rule in favor of both Penske & JGR...then make a statement by handing down a fine to NASCRAP for $10,000.000.00 for Abuse of Power...Then suspend Pemberton,Darby,Helton, for 10 weeks with NO PAY...

YES....I know it's a PIPE DREAM....BUT ****e like this is ruining the sport...IMO...

One more thing....Random DRUG & ALCOHOL testing for all NASCRAP BRASS...Anytime...Anywhere...NO reason needed...Performed and administered by an independant organization...
 
Good time to start a discussion group on penalties . Couple of owners , couple of sponsors , couple of manufacturers and a couple of Nacsar bigwigs . Put em in a room and come up with some recommendations.
 
NASCAR is just too lazy to sit down and make a list of infractions and corresponding penalties. I think that's all they need to do really, it's a long list I'm sure but they have to figure it out. Then everyone will know exactly what will happen if they commit a certain infraction. Makes sense to me.. I'm sure it's not that easy but I think that's what they need to do.
 
I think it's time the penalties should be clearly defined, like they are in the NFL for example. Roughing the passer is a 15-yard penalty, etc. An illegal track bar adjustment is 5 points, whatever, an illegal engine part is 25 points, etc. etc.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
NASCAR is just too lazy to sit down and make a list of infractions and corresponding penalties. I think that's all they need to do really, it's a long list I'm sure but they have to figure it out. Then everyone will know exactly what will happen if they commit a certain infraction. Makes sense to me.. I'm sure it's not that easy but I think that's what they need to do.
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Not possible . No two infractions are the same . Every team has a different history of playing outside the rules . Nascar must reserve the right to call balls and strikes . My only concern these days is the escalation of penalties and where that is headed . I would like to see some more thought put into penalites.
 
Precedent was set years ago. don't mess with the engine is one of them. there will be hell to pay if you do. Educate yourselves..this is a little history. BTW it ruined Carl Long. He isn't racing(no money) and is working a regular job to pay the fine. This article doesn't go into what the owners and crew had to pay in penalties, and is mostly recent history. Nothing horrific is going on like the hysterics would lead you to believe. Hopefully it will make the Toyota's pay attention and be better race car. Eight years of trying and they aren't close to winning a manufacturer championship.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-top-ten-most-fined-sprint-cup-drivers/page/2
 
StandOnIt said:
Precedent was set years ago. don't mess with the engine is one of them. there will be hell to pay if you do. Educate yourselves..this is a little history. BTW it ruined Carl Long. He isn't racing(no money) and is working a regular job to pay the fine. This article doesn't go into what the owners and crew had to pay in penalties, and is mostly recent history. Nothing horrific is going on like the hysterics would lead you to believe. Hopefully it will make the Toyota's pay attention and be better race car. Eight years of trying and they aren't close to winning a manufacturer championship.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-top-ten-most-fined-sprint-cup-drivers/page/2
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Are you serious ? He's working at a regular to pay the fine ? Why ?
 
ted@economy said:
Not possible . No two infractions are the same . Every team has a different history of playing outside the rules . Nascar must reserve the right to call balls and strikes . My only concern these days is the escalation of penalties and where that is headed . I would like to see some more thought put into penalites.
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Disagree there Ted. Umpires have discretion on the balls and strikes, but it's clearly outlined what happened when you get 3 strikes or 4 balls. I feel like Helton & company are calling the balls & strikes then deciding what happens when you get ball four or a strike out.
 
KevinWI said:
Disagree there Ted. Umpires have discretion on the balls and strikes, but it's clearly outlined what happened when you get 3 strikes or 4 balls. I feel like Helton & company are calling the balls & strikes then deciding what happens when you get ball four or a strike out.
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The big time escalation of the fines does have me concerned . I don't see where it goes from here.
 
I mostly like it the way it is and I dont say that because of who may of gotten fined its just how I feel and also for the life of me I dont know why some of you watch races if you despise nascar and the way its run as bad as you do. If I felt that way I damn sure wouldnt waste my time watching their races. But I love racing and "for the most part" the way its ran.
 
StandOnIt said:
Precedent was set years ago. don't mess with the engine is one of them. there will be hell to pay if you do. Educate yourselves..this is a little history. BTW it ruined Carl Long. He isn't racing(no money) and is working a regular job to pay the fine. This article doesn't go into what the owners and crew had to pay in penalties, and is mostly recent history. Nothing horrific is going on like the hysterics would lead you to believe. Hopefully it will make the Toyota's pay attention and be better race car. Eight years of trying and they aren't close to winning a manufacturer championship.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-top-ten-most-fined-sprint-cup-drivers/page/2
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Interesting article. Can't believe R Go0rdon is number one!
 
I'd think that all engine builders are reevaluating their quality control procedures after this latest rule infraction.
 
ted@economy said:
Not possible . No two infractions are the same . Every team has a different history of playing outside the rules . Nascar must reserve the right to call balls and strikes . My only concern these days is the escalation of penalties and where that is headed . I would like to see some more thought put into penalites.
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Even if they have like a scale or chart of how severe the infractions are and a corresponding penalty. Then they give a number, level 4 infraction, 20 points, $50'000 fine and 3 weeks suspension of CC.. or something like that.
 
ted@economy said:
Not possible . No two infractions are the same . Every team has a different history of playing outside the rules . Nascar must reserve the right to call balls and strikes . My only concern these days is the escalation of penalties and where that is headed . I would like to see some more thought put into penalties.
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Punitive and harsh enough to dissuade. Penske got caught red handed trying to "cheat" which makes their penalties appropriate. JGR had illegal engine parts and had the hammer dropped. I think they escalation is fine. It's not like they haven't been warned.
 
Matthew2470 said:
TRD being too cheap and/or lazy to weigh critical engine components caused their issues.
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IMO, the penalty was a bit harsh and if they get some reduction from the appeal, good for them. Nascar did it's job, Gibbs takes the hit and they can close the book.

Now, Gibbs still has an issue and that is with TRD and how that part made it's way into that engine. If that be cheapness/laziness or whatever, he needs to make it clear to Toyota that it's unecceptable for that to ever happen again.

JGR has a pretty good stable of drivers, plenty of sponsorship and likely would have no trouble attracting another manufacturer. I'd make that 100% clear to Toyota.

The fact that Kenseth won that race actually ended up costing the #20 team big time in the end and that is on the shoulders of TRD - not Kenseth, JGR or Nascar.
 
Trd should fire the guys building the rods. They failed. Its reaLly that simple.
Its a black and white rule. I don't understand all the confusion. Its not that hard to understand.

And as far as feeling sorry for anybody at jgr is stupid. They chose trd. Trd got lazy and sourced it out to a shop that is not run by jgr guys. Thus the lazy I don't care attitude is much more apt to happen.

When trd was on racehub about the failure, they cited the part that caused the penalty as one provided by an outside vendor. What he failed to mention was the trd guy didn't weigh the part. Stupid is stupid gets a fine for the biggest trd customer.

I think the fact that the rods Aren't balanced is a joke on trd. No wonder they are so chitty on being reliable.
 
Nascar has stood the test ot time in handing out penalties. If the teams haven't learned by now, then they deserve the penalties Nascar determines appropriate. If the teams don't like Nascar they can take their racing elsewhere. If you the fan don't like the way they handle penalties you can go and watch F1 or whatever you like.

How many times does Nascar have to state that "ANY" infraction regarding engines, tires, or fuel will be dealt with harshly. Remember, the TEAM is totally responsible fo all parts of the car.
 
According to what the HMS engine builders told Jeff Gordon, HMS weighs every single engine rod and makes sure it weighs over the limit.

Even if it takes as long as 15 seconds to weigh each engine rod, that's 8 rods every 2 minutes which equals 30 engines per hour. Seems like it would be more than worth it and could even weed out the ones that are way too heavy.
 
Matthew2470 said:
Punitive and harsh enough to dissuade. Penske got caught red handed trying to "cheat" which makes their penalties appropriate. JGR had illegal engine parts and had the hammer dropped. I think they escalation is fine. It's not like they haven't been warned.
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You bring up an interesting point. JGR gets the engines sealed and doesn't open them up. I know the engines were illegal as does JGR. The fact that JGR had no way of correcting the problem makes the penalties seem very harsh.

Can anyone remember the last time JGR was caught actually cheating? The last thing I remember is the oil pans from several years ago.
 
Smoke14 said:
You bring up an interesting point. JGR gets the engines sealed and doesn't open them up. I know the engines were illegal as does JGR. The fact that JGR had no way of correcting the problem makes the penalties seem very harsh.

Can anyone remember the last time JGR was caught actually cheating? The last thing I remember is the oil pans from several years ago.
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Remember the throttle pedal magnets to hide the true horspower on the Dyno back in '08? I believe it was the NWS cars.
 
#17D500winner said:
Remember the throttle pedal magnets to hide the true horspower on the Dyno back in '08? I believe it was the NWS cars.
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Yep and if I remember correctly a few people lost their jobs because of them.

Soooo..... That is two penalties in six seasons for JGR?
 
Smoke14 said:
Yep and if I remember correctly a few people lost their jobs because of them.

Soooo..... That is two penalties in six seasons for JGR?
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I think so, as most of their penalties have revolved around personalities - not parts ;)
 
I think before any of us can really have a legit or true opinion of the harshness of this penalty...we have to put aside any prejudice towards the team or it's driver and ask ourselves if we think that this was a deliberate cheating tatic to get a performance advantage over other teams, or was it an unfortunate and accidental mistake. I feel that then "and only then" that we can truly have an unbiased opinion on this penalty. I would love to see a poll on how many think this rod was underweight on purpose or by mistake, and if the severity of a penalty should be different depending on the outcome.
 
Interesting article. Can't believe R Go0rdon is number one!
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Robby was a hard nosed racer who had a short fuse. I think NASCAR treated him differently than other drivers. He often deserved penalties but sometimes he didn't. The worst penalty was in a Nationwide race where he was leading during a caution and Ambrose spun him out, he went back to the front of the pack and NASCAR black flagged him for passing under the caution and not returning to the position were he recovered from the spin.
 
Zerkfitting said:
Robby was a hard nosed racer who had a short fuse. I think NASCAR treated him differently than other drivers. He often deserved penalties but sometimes he didn't. The worst penalty was in a Nationwide race where he was leading during a caution and Ambrose spun him out, he went back to the front of the pack and NASCAR black flagged him for passing under the caution and not returning to the position were he recovered from the spin.
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His offroad race shop is right around the corner from me here in Southern Ca. He has three nice race haulers there.
 
Nitro Dude said:
His offroad race shop is right around the corner from me here in Southern Ca. He has three nice race haulers there.
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Yeah, I heard he bought an off road track? or was managing it. something along those lines. Hope he does well, he didn't play the way Nascar wanted him to, he was fun to watch though, murder on road courses where he thought he deserved to win them all.
 
Nitro Dude said:
I think before any of us can really have a legit or true opinion of the harshness of this penalty...we have to put aside any prejudice towards the team or it's driver and ask ourselves if we think that this was a deliberate cheating tatic to get a performance advantage over other teams, or was it an unfortunate and accidental mistake. I feel that then "and only then" that we can truly have an unbiased opinion on this penalty. I would love to see a poll on how many think this rod was underweight on purpose or by mistake, and if the severity of a penalty should be different depending on the outcome.
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Personally I dont need a poll. 65 years ago Big Bill France set the rules, in his words, Dont screw with the motors- Dont screw with the tires and damn sure Dont screw with the gas or you will feel the full weight of this panel on your shoulders and it has remained the same ever since. It doesnt matter who- why- when or how it happened, it happened is all that matters. This is not boat racing, horse racing, drag racing, dog racing, people racing or any other kind of racing, this is Nascar style racing and I love it. Rules are rules, abide by them or face the consequences. The other alternative is to quit nascar and join one of the "other" forms of racing mentioned above ,which for some I think, would be a good idea.
 
I think most on here having a problem accepting reality, were raised by their moma. Moma says no, so they start crying, doesn't work, so they stomp their feet, then comes the pleading and finally momma smiles and gives them what they want. So they learn that no doesn't really mean no. Nascar says no and it means no and they can't accept it. The guys and dolls on the tube act like this is all new stuff and focus the camera into the poor victims tear filled eyes. Ah great we have a story for this week, where is my paycheck..wish I could cover golf, I know something about that, or baseball.
 
StandOnIt said:
Yeah, I heard he bought an off road track? or was managing it. something along those lines. Hope he does well, he didn't play the way Nascar wanted him to, he was fun to watch though, murder on road courses where he thought he deserved to win them all.
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Yeah, he was trying to start a new offroad truck racing series that was going to race in arenas. Seemed like kind of a cool idea. Although, there was YouTube videos of him (Gordon) testing the trucks two years ago and haven't heard anything since.

Always liked Robby Gordon.
 
Johali said:
Personally I dont need a poll. 65 years ago Big Bill France set the rules, in his words, Dont screw with the motors- Dont screw with the tires and damn sure Dont screw with the gas or you will feel the full weight of this panel on your shoulders and it has remained the same ever since. It doesnt matter who- why- when or how it happened, it happened is all that matters. This is not boat racing, horse racing, drag racing, dog racing, people racing or any other kind of racing, this is Nascar style racing and I love it. Rules are rules, abide by them or face the consequences. The other alternative is to quit nascar and join one of the "other" forms of racing mentioned above ,which for some I think, would be a good idea.
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I guess if they don't agree then that's always an option because it's not like there isn't plenty of other racing organizations out there to choose from.;)
 
Nitro Dude said:
I guess if they don't agree then that's always an option because it's not like there isn't plenty of other racing organizations out there to choose from.;)
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I like NHRA just as much as NASCRAP...Pro-Stock Bike is my fav...Had a friend who finished consistently top 3-4 in points in the late 80'-mid late 1990's...I still have friends who race NHRA exibition races at some Nat'l events but mostly division stuff on Pro-Stock Sleds...Nothing like watching a snowmobile race down a track in August running in the 7's @ 160-70ish mph
 
Johali said:
Personally I dont need a poll. 65 years ago Big Bill France set the rules, in his words, Dont screw with the motors- Dont screw with the tires and damn sure Dont screw with the gas or you will feel the full weight of this panel on your shoulders and it has remained the same ever since. It doesnt matter who- why- when or how it happened, it happened is all that matters. This is not boat racing, horse racing, drag racing, dog racing, people racing or any other kind of racing, this is Nascar style racing and I love it. Rules are rules, abide by them or face the consequences. The other alternative is to quit nascar and join one of the "other" forms of racing mentioned above ,which for some I think, would be a good idea.
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I don't disagree with Nascar 's ruling or the fact that they have imposed stiff penalties . I am concerned that when penalties get into the millions of dollars , teams will be forced out of Nascar the way Carl Long was . Granted , the Gibbs bunch and the Hendrick bunch can afford to pay some huge fines , but the cars from 15th on back that struggle to get and keep sponsors cannot afford six figure fines . And I think that this is where Nascar is headed . Before the next owner is forced out , I hope that Nascar sits down with the remaining owners and comes up with a better plan. I still want Nascar to come down hard on every infraction and rule on each case individually , I just don't want to see any teams forced out .
 
ted@economy said:
I don't disagree with Nascar 's ruling or the fact that they have imposed stiff penalties . I am concerned that when penalties get into the millions of dollars , teams will be forced out of Nascar the way Carl Long was . Granted , the Gibbs bunch and the Hendrick bunch can afford to pay some huge fines , but the cars from 15th on back that struggle to get and keep sponsors cannot afford six figure fines . And I think that this is where Nascar is headed . Before the next owner is forced out , I hope that Nascar sits down with the remaining owners and comes up with a better plan. I still want Nascar to come down hard on every infraction and rule on each case individually , I just don't want to see any teams forced out .
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Then they have to be damned sure to follow the rules.
 
ted@economy said:
I think that you will agree , if only in this one case , that Joe Gibbs followed all the rules . Well maybe not in public .;)
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Joe Gibbs Racing did not follow the rules..and if he continues to not follow the rules and race cars with illegal engines, he will either get fined out of Nascar or go with a manufacturer that can make legal engines. Playing dumb and "I don't know what happened..I didn't do it somebody else did isn't going to work..if his "partner" TRD doesn't pay all the fines for their mistake and fix it so it doesn't happen again, I bet ol Joe won't last too long with that partner. This is real simple Ted..no means no. Some people just don't get it.
 
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