Gordon vs Johnson vs Kyle Busch

Not much has remained consistent in the sport even since the 90s.
So many changes since the Brian took over the sport.
I hope the changes cease for a while. NASCAR has been chasing its tail for a long time.
 
jaqua19 said:
People really attribute Jimmie's success to team 48 a bit too much. I mean, the team was a dynasty like the Patriots

But Jimmie is to the 48 what Brady is to the Pats.

It's like people think he was a star/super star driver in a great situation.

Jimmie had a knack for driving the mile-and-a-half better than anyone in the sport. Watch the fall 2009 Charlotte race to see what I mean. Kasey kahne and he had the best cars, Kane led the most laps and was leading before the final restart. Jimmie beat them out of the pits and drove off. you could compare his line to literally every other car and it was different. There is one great shot, Kahne is at the Apex of the corner and getting back to the gas at that point. Jimmie is just landing in to the corner halfway through it and drives straight off. He would always start corner entry late.

At mile and a halves Jimmie could maximize corner speed better than ANYONE.

If someone wants to say another contemporary of his had more raw talent go ahead, but the fact is, Jimmie's style worked out so well in a cup car and Chad would set up the car to allow Jimmie to drive how he likes it. Jimmie's style in a car that handles to his liking could beat anyone on the track for 10 years, regardless of what they did.

Raw talent isn't the only skill. Jimmie had his own driving skill, and it was executed flawlessly for 11 years. Confident, clutch, and a mental winner.

All in all, there was no better race car driver in NASCAR and no one today comes close to the driver Jimmie was.

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Yeah. It's not like you can put Chad Knaus as the driver & win SEVEN championships, including FIVE in a row.

I'm in the minority, but to those saying "Gordon would have more championships if the chase wasn't implemented" don't know what they're talking about. Nascar is a sport, but also a business. The chase was added to add excitement. Drivers have to adjust, Gordon won four championships & that's all there is to it.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Kyle Busch will be the Elder Statesman soon. The next 10 years, he might be even more dominant. But only time will tell.
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He will be, no doubt. The best.compitition he has faced in his career has passed.

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Elliott_Fan_9 said:
Yeah. It's not like you can put Chad Knaus as the driver & win SEVEN championships, including FIVE in a row.

I'm in the minority, but to those saying "Gordon would have more championships if the chase wasn't implemented" don't know what they're talking about. Nascar is a sport, but also a business. The chase was added to add excitement. Drivers have to adjust, Gordon won four championships & that's all there is to it.
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I agree.

People don't like Jimmie's succuss because of his bland personality relative to all time greats, and cause he stole Gordon's thunder.

But is Travis Barker a better drummer than John Bonham ever was because he was faster?

Talent, success, skill, smarts, raw ability , whatever. All of it together. Individually. Whatever. Don't have to like the guy, but I can't understand why people can't acknowledge how good a race car driver Jimmie was, and that in his prime, he was simply a better racecar driver than anyone else of the last 20+ years. Put the 2018 versions of Harv Tru and KB with their respective teams in the cup series from 06-10, and 2013, replacing those versions.

Are they stopping Jimmie from winning 5 in a row, and then 6?

Jeff Gordon in 2007, who was better than any of those guys these last few years was beat,

Carl Edwards who had a better year than any of the big 3 last year was beat.



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If Hendrick gets it together, and we see Jimmie stringing together more results like last weekend, him edging out Gordon completely is still very much within the realm of possibility.
 
Elliott_Fan_9 said:
Yeah. It's not like you can put Chad Knaus as the driver & win SEVEN championships, including FIVE in a row.

I'm in the minority, but to those saying "Gordon would have more championships if the chase wasn't implemented" don't know what they're talking about. Nascar is a sport, but also a business. The chase was added to add excitement. Drivers have to adjust, Gordon won four championships & that's all there is to it.
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but on the flip side of it you dont know Gordon wouldnt have won 7 championships in the old points format like you dont know if JJ would have won 7 in the Winston Cup points format. You just dont know, theres evidence that Gordon would have won 7. Im not debating this in this forum though and wont go down that road..... Jayski had end of season points tallied in the Winston Cup format up until the day they closed up shop. Maybe you could find it its a good read, make your own determinations from that if you will.
 
jaqua19 said:
I agree.

People don't like Jimmie's succuss because of his bland personality relative to all time greats, and cause he stole Gordon's thunder.

But is Travis Barker a better drummer than John Bonham ever was because he was faster?

Talent, success, skill, smarts, raw ability , whatever. All of it together. Individually. Whatever. Don't have to like the guy, but I can't understand why people can't acknowledge how good a race car driver Jimmie was, and that in his prime, he was simply a better racecar driver than anyone else of the last 20+ years. Put the 2018 versions of Harv Tru and KB with their respective teams in the cup series from 06-10, and 2013, replacing those versions.

Are they stopping Jimmie from winning 5 in a row, and then 6?

Jeff Gordon in 2007, who was better than any of those guys these last few years was beat,

Carl Edwards who had a better year than any of the big 3 last year was beat.



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I feel like Jimmie was as close to Tiger Woods as we got in NASCAR. Just something during the Chase when he got close those guys cracked, much like when Tiger got close to the top of the leader board, his competitors knew it. Exhibit A: Denny Hamlin @ Phoenix . I'll still take Jeff Gordon though. In fact I'd take the Rainbow Warriors over any of Jimmie's 5 straight. You pick the points format, Chase or Winston Cup.
 
Snappy D said:
I feel like Jimmie was as close to Tiger Woods as we got in NASCAR. Just something during the Chase when he got close those guys cracked, much like when Tiger got close to the top of the leader board, his competitors knew it. Exhibit A: Denny Hamlin @ Phoenix . I'll still take Jeff Gordon though. In fact I'd take the Rainbow Warriors over any of Jimmie's 5 straight. You pick the points format, Chase or Winston Cup.
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I think that's the nature of being dominant in anything.

At the end of the day athletes are people too. I'm sure the other drivers put pressure on themselves to execute.



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Jimmie and Dale have the best careers anyone ever has. In the same equipment he beat Gordon almost every single year
 
Snappy D said:
but on the flip side of it you dont know Gordon wouldnt have won 7 championships in the old points format like you dont know if JJ would have won 7 in the Winston Cup points format. You just dont know, theres evidence that Gordon would have won 7. Im not debating this in this forum though and wont go down that road..... Jayski had end of season points tallied in the Winston Cup format up until the day they closed up shop. Maybe you could find it its a good read, make your own determinations from defeatthat if you will.
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Gordon knew the points and how they worked just like Johnson during the chase seasons. His inability to beat Johnson for those titles was a defeat by any definition . A defeat that he experienced 6 times. Johnson's five consecutive title run also included dominating Gordon for five consecutive years before Gordon reached his 40th birthday.

Some have claimed Johnson didnt age as well. Thats an incredulous claim to me when compared to Gordon. Gordon won his last championship when he was 30 years old. If anyone was shutdown in their prime years it had to be Gordon. IMO
 
Snappy D said:
I feel like Jimmie was as close to Tiger Woods as we got in NASCAR. Just something during the Chase when he got close those guys cracked, much like when Tiger got close to the top of the leader board, his competitors knew it. Exhibit A: Denny Hamlin @ Phoenix . I'll still take Jeff Gordon though. In fact I'd take the Rainbow Warriors over any of Jimmie's 5 straight. You pick the points format, Chase or Winston Cup.
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To me that's the best comparison I've seen relative to Jimmie Johnson. He is the Tiger Woods of nascar. Some people don't apreciate how great athletes they are. Johnson not only has the natural talent to wheel a car, he has good habits that others don't, like Tony Stewart for instance. Stewart was never known for being a good athlete & it probably cost him a little.
 
Greg said:
Gordon knew the points and how they worked just like Johnson during the chase seasons. His inability to beat Johnson for those titles was a defeat by any definition . A defeat that he experienced 6 times. Johnson's five consecutive title run also included dominating Gordon for five consecutive years before Gordon reached his 40th birthday.

Some have claimed Johnson didnt age as well. Thats an incredulous claim to me when compared to Gordon. Gordon won his last championship when he was 30 years old. If anyone was shutdown in their prime years it had to be Gordon. IMO
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You hit the nail in the coffin. That quote isn't debatable whatsoever. The rest of your post is just icing on the cake.

Precisely, it was his teammate who did it for the most part. Gordon wins a championship in 2001 & doesn't win one again in fourteen more years of competition while he was in his prime?
 
Greg said:
Gordon knew the points and how they worked just like Johnson during the chase seasons. His inability to beat Johnson for those titles was a defeat by any definition . A defeat that he experienced 6 times. Johnson's five consecutive title run also included dominating Gordon for five consecutive years before Gordon reached his 40th birthday.

Some have claimed Johnson didnt age as well. Thats an incredulous claim to me when compared to Gordon. Gordon won his last championship when he was 30 years old. If anyone was shutdown in their prime years it had to be Gordon. IMO
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Jimmie was the best in the Chase system and has the hardware to prove it. I can’t or won’t dispute that. He dominated my driver as well as a lot of others favorite.
 
Snappy D said:
Jimmie was the best in the Chase system and has the hardware to prove it. I can’t or won’t dispute that. He dominated my driver as well as a lot of others favorite.
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I can attest to this. Being a Tony Stewart fan was rough during those years. I find it odd that Stewart won the first title (2005) before Jimmies first of 5 straight & the second title (2011) after the 5 peat was over.
 
Elliott_Fan_9 said:
I can attest to this. Being a Tony Stewart fan was rough during those years. I find it odd that Stewart won the first title (2005) before Jimmies first of 5 straight & the second title (2011) after the 5 peat was over.
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That was Stewart's 2nd title. Though I know you know this.

I think it's funny that from 2005-2013, 8 of those 9 titles were won by either Stewart or Johnson.

The rise of the current aero package and how it really promotes the best equipment and the big 3, it is already starting to get lost in history.

And I'll tell you what made Johnson's dominant different. It was just him.

It's not like he beat the same two drivers each year. Every year, different teams rose to the occasion and had great success, only to get beat in the end. While Johnson's chase dominance was inevitable, there wasn't a sense of the "same 3 cars dominating every week". On a week to week basis, the 4, 78, and 18 are more dominant than any team from 2005-2013

With the exception of
Johnson in 2013,
Stewart in 2005
And maybe Edwards in 2008




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Turtle84 said:
Peak Jeff was unbeatable. Jimmie's season long numbers from 2004-2013 are unmatched, absolutely incredible the consistency, while being forced to execute in a playoff system.
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I look at the Kyle winning all these races like a waste of the NA$CAR fans time to compare Kyle's wins to The King. It's like comparing a major league pitcher playing against a high school pitcher and crediting the high school pitchers wins to the pros wins.
 
Amazing how 7 Cup Championships isn't enough, but 1* is...
 
Jimmie is the goat but he’s not nascars version of tiger. Tiger won the most tournaments of every player ever and won 2nd most majors.
Jimmie struggles on road courses and only has 1 win at Bristol, two of the tracks most dependent on driver skill.
 
DaBiff1618 said:
Jimmie is the goat but he’s not nascars version of tiger. Tiger won the most tournaments of every player ever and won 2nd most majors.
Jimmie struggles on road courses and only has 1 win at Bristol, two of the tracks most dependent on driver skill.
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I think the Tiger Woods comparison is a disservice to Jimmie Johnson. Johnson isn't the kind of low life that provokes a clubbing from his wife.
And the point is relevant, Tigers Woods suffered professionally. While Johnson has won quietly, there isn't a moment where he fell from grace, or allowed his foolishness to nearly destroy him.
 
Greg said:
I think the Tiger Woods comparison is a disservice to Jimmie Johnson. Johnson isn't the kind of low life that provokes a clubbing from his wife.
And the point is relevant, Tigers Woods suffered professionally. While Johnson has won quietly, there isn't a moment where he fell from grace, or allowed his foolishness to nearly destroy him.
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To me, JJ is more like Country Musics George Straight. I know it's a goofy analogy, but think about it. Clean cut, consistent, never a hint of infidelity or controversy, always presents himself well. George Straight is still married to his high school sweetheart, and served in the military. How more All American can you get? JJ definitely ain't Tiger Woods.
 
Elliott_Fan_9 said:
To me that's the best comparison I've seen relative to Jimmie Johnson. He is the Tiger Woods of nascar. Some people don't apreciate how great athletes they are. Johnson not only has the natural talent to wheel a car, he has good habits that others don't, like Tony Stewart for instance. Stewart was never known for being a good athlete & it probably cost him a little.
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Golf references, I love it! I tend to think Gordon is the Tiger Woods of NASCAR. Both did most of their damage in rather short period of time. Their peaks imo were the highest of highs their respective sports have ever seen. Outside of their 7-8 year run of dominance both displayed longevity. Woods career obviously has quite a few personal missteps. Granted, there are/were rumors that Gordon and Brooke's marriage and divorce wasn't all that pretty either.

All 3 drivers were awesome but I'll take Gordon. He was Tiger and LeBron James in that he lived up to the incredible hype. I remember watching "Saturday Night Thunder" on ESPN as a kid and hearing about this teenage phenom racer. Back then ESPN really had a vested interest in racing. They did a great job of making sure his name reached the masses.

I mentioned this a couple of weeks ago but Jeff Gordon's win at the 1994 Brickyard changed NASCAR in ways people don't realize. Five days after Gordon's win front of 300,000+ people and a huge TV audience MLB went on strike. According to one of Roger Penske's friends/execs from the old Nazareth Speedway the result of those two stars aligning can't be understated. Corporate America basically embraced NASCAR overnight as the "boys of summer". The amount of money that pumped into the sport over the next 2-3 years was astronomical. The seating expansion boom happened as did the track building craze in metro areas. It took MLB nearly 4 years and two roided up sluggers to regain portions of their lost market share.
 
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DaBiff1618 said:
Jimmie is the goat but he’s not nascars version of tiger. Tiger won the most tournaments of every player ever and won 2nd most majors.
Jimmie struggles on road courses and only has 1 win at Bristol, two of the tracks most dependent on driver skill.
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Jimmie has two wins at Bristol.

Most recent was in 2017, out drove 3 superior cars in Larson, Harvick and Truex. You could say the same of Dover

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DaBiff1618 said:
Jimmie is the goat but he’s not nascars version of tiger. Tiger won the most tournaments of every player ever and won 2nd most majors.
Jimmie struggles on road courses and only has 1 win at Bristol, two of the tracks most dependent on driver skill.
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FWIW, Earnhardt only had one career road course win as well. And although he has just two wins at Bristol, he’s won 9 times at Martinsville, another track that requires a fair amount of skill.
 
Jimmie won Bristol 2017 because Kyle Larson sped on pit road with 30 to go and gave him the lead. Jimmie obviously doesn’t have to apologize for winning but too much hyperbole here
 
DaBiff1618 said:
Jimmie is the goat but he’s not nascars version of tiger. Tiger won the most tournaments of every player ever and won 2nd most majors.
Jimmie struggles on road courses and only has 1 win at Bristol, two of the tracks most dependent on driver skill.
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Dover requires no skill? Darlington? Indianapolis which setup is paramount and the driver has to be there?

This is a reach homie. I'm sorry to be that guy.
 
In full fairness, I would say Bristol is one of Jimmie's weaker tracks, although his Bristol numbers as a whole aren't too bad by Jimmie standards, 12 top 5's 20 top 10's. His 3 worst tracks imo Richmond, Michigan, the Glen. His 3 best tracks imo Dover, Martinsville, Fontana.

His dominance alone at Dover and Martinsville showcases the driver skill.

Homestead is interesting for him, since his Championship strategy may have skewed his stats on the conservative side. The 7 time champ has only 1 win.
 
Kiante said:
Dover requires no skill? Darlington? Indianapolis which setup is paramount and the driver has to be there?

This is a reach homie. I'm sorry to be that guy.
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Jimmie Johnson has won at 20 out of 23 tracks on the schedule, and could still make that number even higher. 'nuff said.
 
DaBiff1618 said:
Jimmie won Bristol 2017 because Kyle Larson sped on pit road with 30 to go and gave him the lead. Jimmie obviously doesn’t have to apologize for winning but too much hyperbole here
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Wow, that confirmation bias and cognitive distortion is absurd with this whole argument. That's not what happened.

Larson made the ground back up, after the final pitstop, heand Harvick were battling for the lead, Johnson was 4th, then 3rd, then passed Larson and Harvick for the win.


Look it up. Anyone defending Kyle Busch's media sales pitch claiming hyberbole is just an absurd level of hypocrisy. It's not even a real debate

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I would also like to add these statistics, in light of Kyle Busch being the best of his time...


Kevin Harvick (since 2014 to End of 2018)

1 championship
22 Wins
91 Top 5
127 Top 10
8,555 Laps Led
10.28 Avg Finish

Kyle Busch (since 2014 to End of 2018)

1 championship
23 Wins
74 Top 5
96 Top 10
6,059 Laps Led
11.94 Avg Finish

So the last 5 seasons at the cup level, Busch has one more win, equal championships, Harvick has more top 5s, top 10s, more laps lead, and a better average finish.

Statistically, he's been the best of the last 5 years.

Now, let's compare that to Johnson's best 5 year stretch

(2006-2010)

5 championships
35 Wins
81 Top 5
117 Top 10
7,656 Laps Led
10.86 Avg Finish



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jaqua19 said:
I would also like to add these statistics, in light of Kyle Busch being the best of his time...


Kevin Harvick (since 2014 to End of 2018)

1 championship
22 Wins
91 Top 5
127 Top 10
8,555 Laps Led
10.28 Avg Finish

Kyle Busch (since 2014 to End of 2018)

1 championship
23 Wins
74 Top 5
96 Top 10
6,059 Laps Led
11.94 Avg Finish

So the last 5 seasons at the cup level, Busch has one more win, equal championships, Harvick has more top 5s, top 10s, more laps lead, and a better average finish.

Statistically, he's been the best of the last 5 years.

Now, let's compare that to Johnson's best 5 year stretch

(2006-2010)

5 championships
35 Wins
81 Top 5
117 Top 10
7,656 Laps Led
10.86 Avg Finish



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And a "past his prime" 5 year stretch, 2013-2017 (in the midst of Busch's and Harvick's dominance)

2 championships
23 Wins
56 Top 5
93 Top 10
4,807 Laps Led
13.92 Avg Finish

Wasn't as consistently fast and competitive on a week to week basis as both Harvick and Busch, yet somehow won just as much as them, and won one more championship. So you could Harvick and Busch's best 5 year stretches during their prime are as good as a declining Jimmie Johnson, equal wins, better consistency, less championships.
Again, Kyle has no business being considered the best of his time when the raw statistics state otherwise


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