M
Mopardh9
Guest
Yep might work....I agree with you about knee jerk reactions, that is what Nascar does all the time!
E
Eagle1
Guest
Well after doing a little research I think the actual numbers tell the tale and sadly it wasn't what I wanted to hear.
I think there are 2 things that need to be done "IF" anyone really wants to try and solve this, and as I said I really didn't want to hear this as I'm particularly not an advocate of either of these choices BUT if it would help then that's what they gotta do.
This is what I found out:
The accidents that drivers were killed in at Talladega happen before RP's. I wonder if that could be because the RP's actually made the racing safer?
Larry Smith, race, Talladega, Ala., Aug. 12, 1973
Tiny Lund, race, Talladega, Ala., Aug. 17, 1975
This past weekends accident was not caused by the RP's and "the BIG ONE", it was caused by a driver trying to "block" another car.
Also Dale Earnhardt was the only one killed at Daytona during an actual race and that accident was not the big one. Sadly this accident could have been avoided also if "blocking" had not been involved.
Along with the fact at how many races and at how many different tracks have we seen accidents happen because someone is trying to block someone else?
Actually when really looked at it, IF I was a car owner or guy in the bodyshop I would be raising hell about the blocking drivers are doing and wrecking thousands of dollars in race cars every single week. Fact is there's far more carnage on a weekly basis caused by blocking and most of the BIG ONES are caused by blocking. (not all)
The other deaths at Daytona happened during qualifying, practice or tire testing which had no huge packs of cars and was NOT part of a BIG ONE.
Jimmy Pardue, tire test, Daytona Beach, Fla., Sept. 22, 1964
Billy Wade, tire test, Daytona Beach, Fla., Jan. 5, 1965
Talmadge Prince, qualifying, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 19, 1970
Friday Hassler, qualifying, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 17, 1972
Ricky Knotts, qualifying, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 14, 1980
Neil Bonnett, practice, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 11, 1994
Rodney Orr, qualifying, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 14, 1994
Dale Earnhardt, Daytona 500, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 18, 2001
So like it or not, if the drivers can not control themselves and keep NASCAR from having to impose a "No Blocking "penalty, then
That is what must be done and it must be done for ALL tracks.
The second thing is, (and to be honest I believe this would be a knee jerk reaction) would be to knock the banking down to a lower degree like 20 - 24 degree of banking.
The reason I don't believe this is necessary is because the fact is we've seen cars at many other tracks lift as Carls initially did then settle back onto the ground, also as his was in the process of doing. The difference was that there was a car going in excess of 190 in just the right spot to drive UNDER his car as it was coming down throwing it into the air. I believe under those exact circumstances that car would have gone flying at any track.
Respectfully JMHO
I think there are 2 things that need to be done "IF" anyone really wants to try and solve this, and as I said I really didn't want to hear this as I'm particularly not an advocate of either of these choices BUT if it would help then that's what they gotta do.
This is what I found out:
The accidents that drivers were killed in at Talladega happen before RP's. I wonder if that could be because the RP's actually made the racing safer?
Larry Smith, race, Talladega, Ala., Aug. 12, 1973
Tiny Lund, race, Talladega, Ala., Aug. 17, 1975
This past weekends accident was not caused by the RP's and "the BIG ONE", it was caused by a driver trying to "block" another car.
Also Dale Earnhardt was the only one killed at Daytona during an actual race and that accident was not the big one. Sadly this accident could have been avoided also if "blocking" had not been involved.
Along with the fact at how many races and at how many different tracks have we seen accidents happen because someone is trying to block someone else?
Actually when really looked at it, IF I was a car owner or guy in the bodyshop I would be raising hell about the blocking drivers are doing and wrecking thousands of dollars in race cars every single week. Fact is there's far more carnage on a weekly basis caused by blocking and most of the BIG ONES are caused by blocking. (not all)
The other deaths at Daytona happened during qualifying, practice or tire testing which had no huge packs of cars and was NOT part of a BIG ONE.
Jimmy Pardue, tire test, Daytona Beach, Fla., Sept. 22, 1964
Billy Wade, tire test, Daytona Beach, Fla., Jan. 5, 1965
Talmadge Prince, qualifying, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 19, 1970
Friday Hassler, qualifying, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 17, 1972
Ricky Knotts, qualifying, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 14, 1980
Neil Bonnett, practice, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 11, 1994
Rodney Orr, qualifying, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 14, 1994
Dale Earnhardt, Daytona 500, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 18, 2001
So like it or not, if the drivers can not control themselves and keep NASCAR from having to impose a "No Blocking "penalty, then
That is what must be done and it must be done for ALL tracks. The second thing is, (and to be honest I believe this would be a knee jerk reaction) would be to knock the banking down to a lower degree like 20 - 24 degree of banking.
The reason I don't believe this is necessary is because the fact is we've seen cars at many other tracks lift as Carls initially did then settle back onto the ground, also as his was in the process of doing. The difference was that there was a car going in excess of 190 in just the right spot to drive UNDER his car as it was coming down throwing it into the air. I believe under those exact circumstances that car would have gone flying at any track.
Respectfully JMHO
B
BigdaddyQH
Guest
I can understand your concern about blocking, but here is the problem I have with Nascar, who I do not trust. I will use this as an example:
David Ragan is leading a race in the last lap. The track does not matter. Junior is in 2nd. After the last turn, Junior goes high to pass Ragan. Ragan goes up to block him. Junior then dips down low. Ragan drops down to block him, causing Junior to check up to avoid a wreck. Nascar penaizes Ragan for blocking, and takes the win away from him. Now take the exact same situation, but reverse the driving order. Junior is doing the blocking and Ragan is trying to pass. Do you really think that Nascar would take a win away from their most popular driver? I don't. Nascar already has powers that are way too subjective. They make different decisions about every situation, based on who the driver involved is. All Nascar is interested in is money. They will do absolutely nothing that may cost them money, no matter how unfair the situation is.
David Ragan is leading a race in the last lap. The track does not matter. Junior is in 2nd. After the last turn, Junior goes high to pass Ragan. Ragan goes up to block him. Junior then dips down low. Ragan drops down to block him, causing Junior to check up to avoid a wreck. Nascar penaizes Ragan for blocking, and takes the win away from him. Now take the exact same situation, but reverse the driving order. Junior is doing the blocking and Ragan is trying to pass. Do you really think that Nascar would take a win away from their most popular driver? I don't. Nascar already has powers that are way too subjective. They make different decisions about every situation, based on who the driver involved is. All Nascar is interested in is money. They will do absolutely nothing that may cost them money, no matter how unfair the situation is.
dpkimmel2001
Team Owner
If NASCAR is so corrupt to the point that you don't trust them and they do everything to favor particular driver, why would you bother wasting your time with the sport? Just curious
B
BigdaddyQH
Guest
Because I participated in the sport years ago, when it was a lot more legit than it is today, and I want to see the sport return to it's former prominence. The problem in here is that too many people stick their heads into the sand and pretend that their either don't care about the problems, or there is nothing people can do to change anything. The fact is that I have a Neilson box on my T.V., and by not watching the race on my T.V. I cost Nascar ratings, which in turn, cost them money. That is my way of protesting the joke that these races have become. Do you really think that Nascar is not corrupt? Do you think that they treat every driver and team the same?
W
WNY24Fan
Guest
At what level? Give us the info since you talk about it so much to prove your knowledge.
BTW - We were a Neilson family last summer and they sent us record books we had to fill out every day for each TV used. There never was a box.
As stated previously, you are new here and you refuse to look at the archives to see that many of the things you bring up have been discussed ad nauseum.
I have stated recently that I think the COT is a piece of crap and ruining the races and was questioned by another fairly new person why I watched. Well, I still love racing even if I think the new car has made it less exciting. There still are the moments it is exciting and I follow drivers, yes others beside Jeff, and want to root for them and see them do well. When the time comes that I'm no longer interested, I'll stop going to races, I won't watch it on TV religiously like I do now, and I certainly won't be posting on racing boards.
dpkimmel2001
Team Owner
I don't have a problem with the sport the way it is. I attend a few races every year and watch all of them. I'm not sure what all of the problems are that you are talking about. If you're talking about ratings, I don't believe that they have been great for most if not all major sports. No, I don't think that they are corrupt. If I did I sure as heck wouldn't waste my time with it and I also wouldn't be wasting my time typing anything about it. As far as favoritism, I think it is no more than any other major sport. As long as something is judgmental, you'll have favoritism. I think that is human nature.
mike honcho
Knuckleheads
If it was corrupt I think Dale Jr would have another win already.
dpkimmel2001
Team Owner
If it was corrupt I think Dale Jr would have another win already.
Heck, he'd be working on his third championship!
E
Eagle1
Guest
But you're the one posting the most threads here demanding something be done with all kinds of outrageous ideas but DO NOT actually address what the problem is. Unless you are going to target exactly what the problem is, everything else is nothing more than knee jerk reactions.
you want to gripe complain and point fingers, point at the drivers for not controlling themselves or the owners for allowing them to wreck cars by blocking.
BUT if they can't somebody has to do it.
I don't like everything NASCAR does, but the thing I do have to look at is that of all the racing series here in the USA NASCAR is without question the best there is. I don't mean drivers either, because the drivers are in NASCAR because it is the best racing sanctioning body there is.
IF the owners and drivers felt as many of you profess to know as a fact they do why are they racing in NASCAR an not ARCA or some other series?
Don't give me the BS about NASCAR having the money because if the top teams and drivers went to another series, the money would follow them, the networks would be clambering all over themselves to get the TV deal and everyone would be tuning in to watch those races. There are plenty of good race tracks around the country that are not owned by ISC that would be begging for races so NASCAR couldn't control that either.
Remember ;
American Automobile Association AAA was the original santioning body for Automobile racing in America from the early 1900's.
ARCA was founded in 1953, had they honestly had the superior management they would have out grown NASCAR but the fact is thei progress is still only equal to NASCAR in the 70's & 80's and uses all NASCAR hand me downs, and impiments NASCAR rules NOT being proactive.
Had they been the best run santioning body they would have put NASCAR under the table and swallowed them up. IMO the fact is history proves what most fans scream about what they want to happen in NASCAR will NOT work.
You have to have a very strong handed leadership, you can not allow the fans, the teams or the drivers (or my favorite expression, you can not allow the animals free run of the zoo.)
USAC did that and how many times have they split now? USAC was the original sanctioning body and in 1979 they had infighting and split and CART was formed and later on there was more infighting trying to control and we had the big split Champ car and the IRL and they about killed each others series and finally they have merged back to gether.
There were several other santioning bodies that have come and gone over the years, why is that?
The point being that in all this time under terrible stewardship according to most of you, NASCAR has grown in every way.
As I said, they aren't perfect but they sure are the best of all that is out there for me to choose from.
I'm an old phart, I've been a fan of automobile racing for over 50 years. I have raced and held a NASCAR license for quite a few years in the past. I have traveled many miles, sleeping in my car to get to races when I was younger with a loaf of bread, bologny and musturd.
I have earned my right to my opinion
Michael McDowell, 2008, spring race.Where is the outrage about speed at a place like Michigan where they hit 200+ into turn one. Correct me if I am wrong, and I'm sure you all will, but isn't Atlanta one of the fastest tracks? Why aren't we concerned with the same type of thing happening there as we are Talladeg/Daytona? I am talking about the car into the catch fence issue. Please don't use the 'pack of cars' argument. It wasn't a pack of cars in that incident this past Sunday. Cars get into one another most every week. Where's the concern for the other fast tracks? Do we need to fix them too?
Had that hapened during a race, you KNOW there'd been a car in the fence. Heck, had he caught air before he hit the wall, he'd a been in the fence.
dpkimmel2001
Team Owner
You understand my point then? The same sort of thing could happen at any track that they're carrying this type of speed.
S
SST55
Guest
You posted that you had spoken recently with drivers, crew chiefs, and owners about the health of Nascar and had gotten some 'ideas'. I asked which ones, you never replied.
You said you have driven faster then the drivers do today. When and where? You said you have raced at Talledega. When? What car number?
Are you ever going to provide any proof of your greatness?
btw, what is your meaning of "legit"? While bending the rules aka cheating happens today it in no way, shape, manner or form comes even remotely close to what occurred in the past.
mike honcho
Knuckleheads
I think it's Kyle Busch incogneto
buckaroo
Here kitty, kitty, kitty
Here we go again, NASCAR is partial to any Earnhardt. This has been something that has been going around since Earnhardt succeeded Richard Petty as tops in NASCAR. Even today, as witnessed by the all-knowing Bigdaddy, NASCAR still is partial to an Earnhardt.
S
SST55
Guest
"with a loaf of bread, bologny and musturd."
WOW Eagle, you had musturd! You must be one of them high dollar racers!
WOW Eagle, you had musturd! You must be one of them high dollar racers!
E
Eagle1
Guest
"with a loaf of bread, bologny and musturd."
WOW Eagle, you had musturd! You must be one of them high dollar racers!
yeah but I loved every minute of it. I liked racing so much I gave up my beer so I could afford racing and fuel.
G
GREAT AMERICAN RACE FAN
Guest
Leave the track alone, no stupid chicanes, Talledega was built like Jessica Simpson, for speed. Smaller engine and larger spoiler.
G
GREAT AMERICAN RACE FAN
Guest
Another idea, shave a few degrees off, like maybe 8 and add progressive banking. I can't stand that they did that to Bristol, but maybe it would keep the cars off each other.
that actually may not be a bad deal. It's worked out well at homestead, although the outside line would be even faster than it is now. Yes it would reduce the amount f packing, but the drivers would be more aggressive trying to get into that upper groove.
Except they just repaved Dega a couple years ago. But if/when they repave daytona, progressvie banking definately should be considered.
M
Mopardh9
Guest
I think you are right to a point, but Nascar does tend to "bend the rules" concerning some drivers more than others. Is it corrupt, not to the point where a winner is picked every week that is for sure, that could never happen, but there is favortism sometimes that goes a little overboard.
dpkimmel2001
Team Owner
Here's yet another idea....
How about they put that fence back up and we go back there and race there in November.
How about they put that fence back up and we go back there and race there in November.
8
83WynnsOlds
Guest
GARF,
You can't be serious? you want to f up 'dega like bristol was f'd up? Fool.
I outta punch you in the throat...just kidding pal.
bristol is too slow for progressive banking. Look what it did at homestead...
W
WNY24Fan
Guest
We always joke about the "phantom debris cautions" when Jr is about to go a lap down.
I've noticed they've been "trying" to show the debris on TV if they can. LOL I guess all that really needs to happen is a JR fan pitching something on the track.
E
Eagle1
Guest
To slow? Irwindale is 1/2 mile with progressive banking and has fantastic racing.
I think it's because the angle of the track is to steep for the progressive banking to work well. I think it needs to be used on lesser degrees of banking to be most effective.
That could be true too. Didn't know ID used progressive banking too.
First, the only reason Carl went up into the fence was because Ryan hit him at just the wrong moment. Carl's roof flaps were up, and the car was coming down when Ryan hit him. Wrong place, wrong time.
Second, the best way to keep the cars down is to SLOW THEM DOWN --- 15 to 20MPH might work. Spectators would never see the difference in speed.
Second, the best way to keep the cars down is to SLOW THEM DOWN --- 15 to 20MPH might work. Spectators would never see the difference in speed.
barelypure
Spectator
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Or, keep the cars the same and keep the banking the same. Just reverse the banking so the low side is towards the stands and the high side is towards the pits. That way if a car left the racing surface it would be towards the pits and those guys are already wearing safety gear.
Besides the fans would be able to see the cars better on their side. Now the other side ehh not so much...
Besides the fans would be able to see the cars better on their side. Now the other side ehh not so much...