Jimmie Johnson's Sixth Championship Perfect Example of Why Chase Is Bad for NASCAR

DSquad48 said:
If it was Dale Jr. instead of Jimmie, Jr. would be hailed as the greatest driver ever and everybody would love the Chase.
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this is true, the people that don't like jimmy and say he is bland, look you have to race against 42 other drivers every week. every driver has an ego of some sort. one of the reasons jimmy is so successful is that he avoid controversy on the race track and off. because controversy doesn't win races.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
I hate the Chase but it amuses me that people only cry when Jimmie wins it. They weren't complaining in 2011.
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I thought that the 14 team played the chase better than the 48 team ever did . Weren't there a fuel mileage race or two in there ? Also the 2012 Chase was a little suspect with the 2 car having inspection problems which really set him back big time in 2013. Jimmie is really good .
 
Stewart will be back with vengeance next year and if he chooses to worry more about wheelin' a car and less about hair pulls with the media - look out!

IMO, there's no one in Nascar that's a better driver than him. There are some that manage their brains better, however.
 
DSquad48 said:
If it was Dale Jr. instead of Jimmie, Jr. would be hailed as the greatest driver ever and everybody would love the Chase.
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Are you kidding me? If Jr was glorified as the greatest in history & better than his father I'd quit watching the sport.

Short and simple the old system, "boring" to some people, brought diversity & the chase has brought "excitement" to some but obviously breeds repetitiveness.
 
This is such a ridiculous argument, and always will be. Fact is, NO ONE KNOWS whether or not he would have won more championships under the old format, because the team probably would have approached the season differently and capitalized on that point system as well. To say that he wouldn't have one, point blank, is dumb.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Are you kidding me? If Jr was glorified as the greatest in history & better than his father I'd quit watching the sport.
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Haha, okay maybe that's a bit extreme, but you can't deny that the overall NASCAR community would be happier with Jr. winning 6 with the chase than with Jimmie doing it.
 
DSquad48 said:
....you can't deny that the overall NASCAR community would be happier with Jr. winning 6 with the chase than with Jimmie doing it.
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Probably true considering Jr is the most popular driver in nascar.

I'd be willing to bet that any driver who won 6 championships in 8 years, most of the fans wouldn't like it.

I don't like or dislike JJ, but I can honestly say I'd rather see JJ win 6 championships in 8 years than a lot of other drivers in the Cup series right now.
 
VaDirt said:
This is such a ridiculous argument, and always will be. Fact is, NO ONE KNOWS whether or not he would have won more championships under the old format, because the team probably would have approached the season differently and capitalized on that point system as well. To say that he wouldn't have one, point blank, is dumb.
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That's a great point!!! You really can't compare the accomplishments of JJ to full season format champions. We just don't know if #48 team could have been as successful under the old full season point system, it is definitely comparing apples to oranges. I don't begrudge JJ or his success but hate the "He is the Messiah" articles. The new system may prove to be a more difficult challenge to drivers but we just don't know as of yet. Certainly, he is a legitimate champion and is an elite driver but to say, "he is the best driver of all time" is a huge stretch. Honestly, JJ has been put in an unfair position historically because of the reformatting of the NASCAR championship. He will NEVER be able to clearly and undeniably prove he would have been a six time champion under the old system and most "throw back" fans will never give him a pass. The only way to compare JJ to past drivers is to look at on the track performance. In other words, compare them by objective data of wins, top fives and top tens. I don't have time to look it all up but I did look up the number of wins by the 48 team. The record shows that JJ is at 66 wins which is quite impressive. However, his teammate Jeff Gordon who drives the # 24 has 86 wins. So best of all time, I don't believe he is at this time but, he certainly has time to procure those wins. By the way, Petty has 200 wins under his belt but the reason I didn't reference the #43 STP team is that he raced under a much longer schedule and/or season.
 
MightyPutty said:
That's a great point!!! You really can't compare the accomplishments of JJ to full season format champions. ... The only way to compare JJ to past drivers is to look at on the track performance. In other words, compare them by objective data of wins, top fives and top tens. I don't have time to look it all up but I did look up the number of wins by the 48 team. The record shows that JJ is at 66 wins which is quite impressive. However, his teammate Jeff Gordon who drives the # 24 has 86 wins. So best of all time, I don't believe he is at this time but, he certainly has time to procure those wins. .....
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From racing reference, compare drivers:

Driver vs. Driver
Get statistics for any two drivers, in races where they appeared together.
Select a series, then type all or part of a driver's name in the boxes below, and click on the button to see the results.
Series: Sprint CupNationwide SeriesCamping World Truck SeriesARCA Racing SeriesFormula OneIndyCar SeriesIndy Lights SeriesCanadian Tire Series
Driver #1: Driver #2:

Total races in this series: 435
First race: 2001 UAW-GM Quality 500 (2001-29)
Last race: 2013 Ford EcoBoost 400 (2013-36)
Jimmie Johnson Jeff Gordon
Head-to-Head 246 wins 189 wins
Actual Race Stats
Wins 66 30
Top 5's 182 159
Top 10's 272 242
Avg. Finish 11.6 13.2



holy spit!!! now I'm touting jimmie's resume???? going to see a specialist now. obviously something is seriously wrong with me!
 
MightyPutty said:
That's a great point!!! You really can't compare the accomplishments of JJ to full season format champions. We just don't know if #48 team could have been as successful under the old full season point system, it is definitely comparing apples to oranges. I don't begrudge JJ or his success but hate the "He is the Messiah" articles. The new system may prove to be a more difficult challenge to drivers but we just don't know as of yet. Certainly, he is a legitimate champion and is an elite driver but to say, "he is the best driver of all time" is a huge stretch. Honestly, JJ has been put in an unfair position historically because of the reformatting of the NASCAR championship. He will NEVER be able to clearly and undeniably prove he would have been a six time champion under the old system and most "throw back" fans will never give him a pass. The only way to compare JJ to past drivers is to look at on the track performance. In other words, compare them by objective data of wins, top fives and top tens. I don't have time to look it all up but I did look up the number of wins by the 48 team. The record shows that JJ is at 66 wins which is quite impressive. However, his teammate Jeff Gordon who drives the # 24 has 86 wins. So best of all time, I don't believe he is at this time but, he certainly has time to procure those wins. By the way, Petty has 200 wins under his belt but the reason I didn't reference the #43 STP team is that he raced under a much longer schedule and/or season.
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It will always be impossible to compare drivers of different eras. It's all relative to the competition level at the time that the greats were racing. We don't know how Jimmie would do racing in Petty's era, and we don't know how Petty would do racing today. What we do know is that Jimmie will never get his full dues from the NASCAR community like Petty and Earnhardt have, even if he gets 10 championships and 100 wins. There will always be people who claim that Jimmie is simply a product of the chase, wouldn't be anything without Chad Knaus or Rick Hendrick, etc. etc.
 
DSquad48 said:
What we do know is that Jimmie will never get his full dues from the NASCAR community like Petty and Earnhardt have, even if he gets 10 championships and 100 wins. There will always be people who claim that Jimmie is simply a product of the chase, wouldn't be anything without Chad Knaus or Rick Hendrick, etc. etc.
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Do you think people didn't do the same thing when Earnhardt was winning his championships? Or when Gordon was getting double digit wins every year and championships? lol
I can't speak about that with Petty because he was done winning races and championships when I became a fan, but I'd be willing to bet they were.

Never say never. When JJ's streak runs dry people will start coming around to giving him his due. Same as they did with Earnhardt, Gordon, and (probably) Petty.

Your guy has 6 Cups under his belt. Why not be just be happy with that and stop the JJ pity party because he's not getting to props you think he should be getting.
 
klemmabyna said:
From racing reference, compare drivers:

Driver vs. Driver
Get statistics for any two drivers, in races where they appeared together.
Select a series, then type all or part of a driver's name in the boxes below, and click on the button to see the results.
Series: Sprint CupNationwide SeriesCamping World Truck SeriesARCA Racing SeriesFormula OneIndyCar SeriesIndy Lights SeriesCanadian Tire Series
Driver #1: Driver #2:

Total races in this series: 435
First race: 2001 UAW-GM Quality 500 (2001-29)
Last race: 2013 Ford EcoBoost 400 (2013-36)
Jimmie Johnson Jeff Gordon
Head-to-Head 246 wins 189 wins
Actual Race Stats
Wins 66 30
Top 5's 182 159
Top 10's 272 242
Avg. Finish 11.6 13.2



holy spit!!! now I'm touting jimmie's resume???? going to see a specialist now. obviously something is seriously wrong with me!
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Are these numbers counting their amateur records as well? There is no way to compare drivers using their local or regional stats. I mean come on who really care how many go cart races Jeff won or lost. We can only find a true result by finding a constant (which is top 5, top 10 and wins). Winston/Sprint Cup performance is the issue at hand. However, you have brought up a great point about the data. If we really want to get a fair comparative, we must average out the race wins by the number of races. Otherwise, we will fall short of a real unbiased of all past champions.
 
MightyPutty said:
Are these numbers counting their amateur records as well? There is no way to compare drivers using their local or regional stats. I mean come on who really care how many go cart races Jeff won or lost. We can only find a true result by finding a constant (which is top 5, top 10 and wins). Winston/Sprint Cup performance is the issue at hand. However, you have brought up a great point about the data. If we really want to get a fair comparative, we must average out the race wins by the number of races. Otherwise, we will fall short of a real unbiased of all past champions.
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Those are Cup stats. Even so, they have always been at a different point in the career's. No way to compare them IMO.
 
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Nitro Dude said:
I am not a big JJ fan... but there is no doubt in my mind that Jimmie Johnson and Chad Knaus would win championships no matter what format Nascar has.
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I agree, but maybe not as many as the chase seems to fit their style.
 
gordonite said:
Do you think people didn't do the same thing when Earnhardt was winning his championships? Or when Gordon was getting double digit wins every year and championships? lol
I can't speak about that with Petty because he was done winning races and championships when I became a fan, but I'd be willing to bet they were.

Never say never. When JJ's streak runs dry people will start coming around to giving him his due. Same as they did with Earnhardt, Gordon, and (probably) Petty.

Your guy has 6 Cups under his belt. Why not be just be happy with that and stop the JJ pity party because he's not getting to props you think he should be getting.
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Er, sorry for thinking differently than you :D

All I'm saying is that because jimmie won under the chase format, his name being among the best of all time will always be in question.
 
JJ is an elite driver but, Chad Knaus is the reason JJ continues to win. He is the foundation that the 48 team stands upon for success. Now, I am not saying JJ is not the best of all time, I am saying that today in the modern era one cannot win without a talented and effective crew chief. Just look what happened to Jeff after he and Everham went their separate ways. Yes, Jeff still wins occasionally and remains competitive but long gone are the double digit wins each and every season.

So, why do JJ fans downplay the contribution that he makes for the team? It befuddles me to read articles online on sites like USA today that reference JJ as the best driver of all time while Chad isn't even mentioned. Also, if the article is about Chad, he Is referenced simply one of top crew chief's of all time rather than "the best". In other words, how do JJ fans fail to make that connection? I just don't get it.
 
DSquad48 said:
Er, sorry for thinking differently than you :D

All I'm saying is that because jimmie won under the chase format, his name being among the best of all time will always be in question.
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I think any drivers name mentioned as being among the best of all time will be in question. In this forum alone every driver, including Richard Petty, Dale Sr., Jeff Gordon etc. has been looked upon negatively by some about being the best of all time and the same thing has happened far back into the past and will happen from now on In My Opinion.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Those are Cup stats. Even so, they have always been at a different point in the career's. No way to compare them IMO.
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i know that! but as an earnhardt sr. fan, i just can't help poking at the gordon group!:D
 
It's a team sport and the driver is a significant part of the team. I think its been demonstrated that a good driver can change teams and improve the team performance. Kensith, Lagano, and Kurt Busch are examples from this year.
 
Honestly the way I see it is this, maybe Johnson wins with the chase but he's playing it the way the way the rules allow. But at the same time to say he would have won 3 without it isn't given. They race the way they have to for the chase, all drivers do that so who's to say one of them drivers couldn't have did better year round?
 
Matthew2470 said:
If Jeff can get his 5th I am fine with Jimmie getting 10. We shall see.
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Not gunna happen. Rick moved Gordon outta the 48's garage area for a reason. It just wouldn't be right for Gordon to be in competition for Earnhardt's record... Right? O.o

If JJ races till he is Gordon's age & Knaus stays (he'd be a fool to leave just ask Ray) he will win 8 or more & people will still bitch.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
If JJ races till he is Gordon's age & Knaus stays (he'd be a fool to leave just ask Ray) he will win 8 or more & people will still bitch.
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Knaus has claimed multiple times that he intends to stay with Jimmie and Hendrick until he retires. The question is is when that's going to happen. His contract is up in 2015, so we'll have to see what happens then.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
....If JJ races till he is Gordon's age & Knaus stays (he'd be a fool to leave just ask Ray) he will win 8 or more & people will still bitch.
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Ray leaving the HMS is a perfect example for Chad that 'the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence'. With that as an example I could see Chad staying right where he is for a very long time.

I know it's hard to imaging a time when the 48 team stops winning championship. But I remember after Earnhardt won his 7th back in 94, everyone just knew he would continue winning more championships in the next few years. Same with Gordon after he won his 4th back in 98. It was a given they would go on to win more championships in the next few years after their last championships.

Bottom line... You just never know how things will turn out, so I wouldn't give JJ another 8 championships just yet.
 
gordonite said:
I know it's hard to imaging a time when the 48 team stops winning championship. But I remember after Earnhardt won his 7th back in 94, everyone just knew he would continue winning more championships in the next few years. Same with Gordon after he won his 4th back in 98.
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2001
 
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