Looking Back: Why I think Red Bull Racing failed in NASCAR

3wideinturn1 said:
Excellent analysis, my opinion is that the #3 on your list is in fact the #1 reason why they failed.

Had they secured more major sponsorship, it would have really helped offset those first few years where they did very poorly. By the time they called it quits, they were actually producing decent race cars, not championship cars but certainly quality rides. At that point they had already lost so much money they had to shut it down. Also if they had more sponsorship dollars they might have been able to fund a development program more adequately and perhaps attract more quality personnel and or drivers.
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I highly doubt money or sponsorship was an issue. The owner of Red Bull is worth $5.3 billion dollars. If money was truly an issue they would shut down their F1 teams because F1 is 10 times as expensive as NASCAR to compete in ($20 million a year for NASCAR vs $235 million a year for F1). I think when Red Bull entered NASCAR they expected to dominate but when that wasn't happening they just got fed up with being uncompetitive and didn't want their name brand associated with being weak/mediocre so they closed down their NASCAR teams. In comparison, they have won the last 4 F1 championships.
 
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Marcingak said:
I highly doubt money or sponsorship was an issue. The owner of Red Bull is worth $5.3 billion dollars. If money was truly an issue they would shut down their F1 teams because F1 is 10 times as expensive as NASCAR to compete in ($20 million a year for NASCAR vs $235 million a year for F1). I think when Red Bull entered NASCAR they expected to dominate but when that wasn't happening they just got fed up with being uncompetitive and didn't want their name brand associated with being weak/mediocre so they closed down their NASCAR teams. In comparison, they have won the last 4 F1 championships.
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You don't become a billionaire by keeping failing ventures afloat with your personal bankroll. Money had everything to do with why they left.

In Formula 1 they have considerably more sponsorship and support, including a title sponsor which I believe is now Infinti despite the fact that they run Renault. So while yes the owner has deep pockets, and he may be willing to bankroll a 4 time F1 champ, he obviously wasn't willing to bankroll a couple of mid pack cars in NASCAR.

Does anyone know if Red Bull Technology was even involved in their NASCAR efforts? The spin off company was a very creative way for them to gain a competitive advantage on the F1 competition IMO. Technically they didn't break any rules but I believe Scuderia Toro Rosso is building their own chassis now.
 
Do NASCAR teams produce their own chassis? IIRC, the Toyota teams all get theirs from Triad.
 
Spike said:
Do NASCAR teams produce their own chassis? IIRC, the Toyota teams all get theirs from Triad.
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I believe the big boys do, HMS, JGR, RCR, RFR, MWR, Penske, Ganassi all make their own if I'm not mistaken. Even though there are strict guidelines as to how they are made, I think there is significant differences between some of them. For example, where the motor mounts to the chassis is different on Penske cars than the Roush cars, Jack eluded to this when they announced that Penske would be running RY engines. Jack said they would respect Penske's knowledge and expierence in how they wanted to setup their cars.
 
I know you are big on vickers but IMO putting a guy like vickers in the car WAS the problem. vickers has never and will never be a multiple win per season guy. he is at best win one race every other year. Aside from that you need so many pieces beyond just a fast car and its just too hard for a fledgling organization to put all the pieces together. look what kurt busch exposed with furniture row, they had the speed to win but it exposed other weakness in the team. the other drivers beyond vickers were new guys not capable of winning or really even running up front at the time.

I think in order to succeed you HAVE to form some sort of alliance with an established successful team, gibbs, HMS, Roush, RCR or penske, This alliance MUST go beyond just engines. It has to include info sharing and probably chassis building. Didn't red bull build their own cars?? I think that was probably a mistake if they did. If I had a ton of money and wanted a nascar team, I would try to actually be a partner in ownership with an established team, basically they field my car and operate the who deal. Its basically them bringing an extra car to the track every week.
 
blue92 said:
Just about the time Red Bull pulled out of NA$CAR the Red Bull teams in F1 started to dominate F1, think there's any thing to that?
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Eh, Red Bull were well on their way to their second constructors' championship when they decided to quit NASCAR.
 
It's more that Nascar failed Red Bull. Red Bull wasn't getting the return on their investment they hoped for. Red Bull left for the same reason so many other sponsors have left.
 
red bull is sold all over world. 5.3 billion cans last yr.
not a $$ problem........not winnin was ! image !
 
hawg dawg said:
red bull is sold all over world. 5.3 billion cans last yr.
not a $$ problem........not winnin was ! image !
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I doubt it. They left NASCAR after only four years; after four years in F1 they were still 7th out of 11 among the constructors and look at where they are now.

Motorsports sponsorship is a large part of their marketing strategy so if they're not getting a return they're not going to stay in that series. Others have mentioned there are other energy drinks still in NASCAR but none have invested nearly as much as Red Bull initially did so they don't have as much to lose and probably have more realistic expectations as to what they can gain.
 
Spike said:
Do NASCAR teams produce their own chassis? IIRC, the Toyota teams all get theirs from Triad.
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MWR and JGR build their own. MWR leans on TRD more (TRD was even building the chassis in the early days) than JGR but the information is there. It is my understanding that BK does their own as well. Part time teams purchase used/older chassis from whoever will sell I believe. The TRD chassis facility in Salisbury is available for tuning and input. Obviously, MWR and JGR have priority, but all Toyota teams can access the facility and input depending on their level of desire to pay. Should mention that TRIAD does supply parts to all Toyota teams, however.
 
See along with that, I know that JGR gets engines from TRD but still does their own adjustments on them.
 
Spike said:
See along with that, I know that JGR gets engines from TRD but still does their own adjustments on them.
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TRD builds the motors for MWR and JGR. Mark Cronquist is involved in the final tune, but all of the motors are the same.
 
Revman said:
MWR and JGR build their own. MWR leans on TRD more (TRD was even building the chassis in the early days) than JGR but the information is there. It is my understanding that BK does their own as well. Part time teams purchase used/older chassis from whoever will sell I believe. The TRD chassis facility in Salisbury is available for tuning and input. Obviously, MWR and JGR have priority, but all Toyota teams can access the facility and input depending on their level of desire to pay. Should mention that TRIAD does supply parts to all Toyota teams, however.
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I have never heard of TRD building a chassis. BK racing I am pretty sure is the one that bought all the red bull cars when they shut down. I have no idea if they are still running those chassis or if they have bought used ones from somewhere else I suspect both at this point. TRD builds gibbs cup motors and MWR engines. however gibbs still builds the nationwide engines for its cars. Gibbs did originally build its own toyota cup engines but that was only the first year and they later went with TRD.
 
hidesert cowboy said:
I have never heard of TRD building a chassis. BK racing I am pretty sure is the one that bought all the red bull cars when they shut down. I have no idea if they are still running those chassis or if they have bought used ones from somewhere else I suspect both at this point. TRD builds gibbs cup motors and MWR engines. however gibbs still builds the nationwide engines for its cars. Gibbs did originally build its own toyota cup engines but that was only the first year and they later went with TRD.
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In the early MWR days, they were heavily involved in all aspects of the team. I had heard that they actually built a chassis or two--unconfirmed of course. They do have the chassis facility in Salisbury run by VP of Chassis Engineering, Steve Wickham. I think BK is building their own.

JGR built their own motors until the partnership with TRD was established in 2012. They had reliability issues in 2011, and were working closely with TRD anyway so they made if official.
 
I always wondered about that. When Gibbs was building their own Toyota engines, I am guessing they were mostly TRD supplied parts with some other performance parts mixed in and now they are 100% TRD from the get go.
 
Spike said:
I always wondered about that. When Gibbs was building their own Toyota engines, I am guessing they were mostly TRD supplied parts with some other performance parts mixed in and now they are 100% TRD from the get go.
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I think that would be fair to say. 100% TRD now but this is a collaborative agreement with JGR so that influence is still there. Really believe that this agreement means that JGR is Toyota for the long haul.
 
FLRacingFan said:
I doubt it. They left NASCAR after only four years; after four years in F1 they were still 7th out of 11 among the constructors and look at where they are now.

Motorsports sponsorship is a large part of their marketing strategy so if they're not getting a return they're not going to stay in that series. Others have mentioned there are other energy drinks still in NASCAR but none have invested nearly as much as Red Bull initially did so they don't have as much to lose and probably have more realistic expectations as to what they can gain.
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btw ...red bull owns 2 teams in f1.
toro rosso is where vettel came from.
$$ got adrian newey ta rbr.
just bein in f1 is premium upscale status.

runnin 1/2 azz like they did in nascar didn't match their premium price.
plus monster = coca cola .......rockstar = pepsi ........lower priced.

image is everything when ya tha highest priced in market.
ie---red bull youth america's cup.........baumgardner space jump ........etc
 
chassis ........thinkin all chassis fab shop's will be near charlotte.
don't they all have ta go thru nascar's r&d center ta be certified......rfid tags attached....etc ?
before body ....bolt on parts attached .
 
hawg dawg said:
btw ...red bull owns 2 teams in f1.
toro rosso is where vettel came from.
$$ got adrian newey ta rbr.
just bein in f1 is premium upscale status.

runnin 1/2 azz like they did in nascar didn't match their premium price.
plus monster = coca cola .......rockstar = pepsi ........lower priced.

image is everything when ya tha highest priced in market.
ie---red bull youth america's cup.........baumgardner space jump ........etc
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F1 also reaches much more of the 18-34 demo than NASCAR does, which is what Red Bull were and are targeting. Same reason why they have a presence in all of the extreme sports, MotoGP, World Rally Championship, Motocross, and so on.

I think Red Bull would be significantly better by now, and they did have some good results with Vickers before the blood clot and with Kahne in their final season. But NASCAR's fan base is just too old for how much Red Bull put into the sport. Right up there with golf.
 
Ironically I could see NASCAR's demographis start to trend back younger now that a new crop of young drivers are starting to file into the series. Granted, one could say "but young drivers have been coming up for years" and thats true, but its been a while since we have seen such an influx of quality young drivers all coming in at relatively the same time.
 
FLRacingFan said:
F1 also reaches much more of the 18-34 demo than NASCAR does, which is what Red Bull were and are targeting. Same reason why they have a presence in all of the extreme sports, MotoGP, World Rally Championship, Motocross, and so on.

I think Red Bull would be significantly better by now, and they did have some good results with Vickers before the blood clot and with Kahne in their final season. But NASCAR's fan base is just too old for how much Red Bull put into the sport. Right up there with golf.
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rb biggest market / biggest gains '13 is still usa.
monster catchin up tho........w/ price point ?

look at entire rb marketin...... they're usually in top tier in that category.
coke / pepsi in nascar mighta been big hurdle too ?
as far as co-op w/ chevy / ford teams that could be top tier. ?

who knows.
1 thing is clear ....rb funds most investments outa cash flow.......so no good $ after bad i guess.
prolly 200 mill plus gone on that venture.
 
I don't buy the marketing/sponsorship story.

I think old daddy Dietrich thought NASCAR would be easy with a blank check. It wasn't, so he left.

The story about NASCAR sponsorship not hitting age demographics was probably a shot at NASCAR on the way out (though not untrue).

I have no proof, just my read on the situation.
 
hawg dawg said:
btw ...red bull owns 2 teams in f1.
toro rosso is where vettel came from.
$$ got adrian newey ta rbr.
just bein in f1 is premium upscale status.

runnin 1/2 azz like they did in nascar didn't match their premium price.
plus monster = coca cola .......rockstar = pepsi ........lower priced.

image is everything when ya tha highest priced in market.
ie---red bull youth america's cup.........baumgardner space jump ........etc
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Spot on as usual dawg.
 
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