Money>Talent

WhiningSmoke

Team Owner
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The biggest issue with Nascar today. Talent comes second in terms of things owners look at when hiring a young driver. Most up and comers are ride buyers, or have family connections. Pretty much the only exception to this that I can think of is Bubba Wallace.

Too many times we've seen talented drivers lose their rides to people with sponsorship. An example includes Ross Chastain. Chastain had a part-time 2013 truck campaign where if he'd run the full season, he'd have been in the hunt to win the championship. The only full-time driver with a better average finish than his in 2013 was Matt Crafton. So what does Brad Keselowski Racing do with this very talented young man? Does Brad give him a full-time ride? No, he fires him and hires Tyler Reddick, a ride buyer. One who has done nothing but disappoint.

This is all too common in Nascar today. Elliott Sadler is currently driving the #11 car for Joe Gibbs Racing in the Nationwide Series. Why? Because he has guaranteed sponsorship from One Main Financial. Gibbs lets Sadler run full-time while he has promising drivers like Drew Herring, Bubba Wallace, Erik Jones, and Michael McDowell either running in lower series or a part-time schedule.

RCR's entire stable, except for Ryan Newman, has either family connections or has bought a ride. This wasn't happening ten years ago.
 
Unfortunately, this trend is likely to continue. The sport isn't doing nearly as well as it was 10 years ago, while at the same time it has become much more expensive to compete and sponsorship has become harder to obtain. So if someone with sponsorship money comes along, that's likely going to trump talent.
 
Whomever is the best image for the sponsor becomes the driver.
 
if your a team owner its either run the car with a guy that is bringing money to the table OR not run the car at all. john wes townley is another one. I am surprised elliott sadler continues to get sponsorship. I also can't believe how terrible he has been in gibbs cars either.
 
Sadler was tearing it up in Nationwide with KHI/RCR. I don't understand why he fell off the map but I didn't like the move to Gibbs from the beginning. Granted, he probably would have been pushed out eventually in favor of the Dillon boys anyway, but I see it as a textbook case of fixing something that wasn't broken and screwing it up.

As for the original topic, yes, this is an issue for those young, talented drivers that are looking for an opportunity to break into or advance further in the sport, and it's an issue for us as fans. Of course we want to see the best drivers driving the best race cars, and in an ideal situation, money wouldn't be a factor and that's exactly what would happen. However, as I said in the Milka Duno thread (yes, Milka Duno, not Milkweed Dunk, stupid auto correct! :mad:), it is what it is, and it will always be this way as long as rides cost a great deal of money. And like @Jeffrey00 and @ToyYoda pointed out, this trend really isn't anything new - it's just been magnified because of the current state of the economy.

There will always be haves and have nots of varying talent levels in all walks of life, and NASCAR is no exception. Just take solace in the fact that the cream always rises to the top, and while you can buy a ride all day long, you can't buy the talent that ultimately translates into race wins and championships - unless you're an owner, of course!
 
Maybe if it didn't cost millions and millions of dollars to run a 20th-place Truck team for a year there'd be more talent getting opportunities to race...pay-to-play is especially egregious in the Nationwide Series. NASCAR's feeder system is broken.
 
It's not just Nascar , in every sport , it takes lots of financial backing to make it to the top tier . Check out the struggle for sponsorship at your local track . He who can buy the best parts wins .The guys who can't attract sponsorship and bring it with them , never make it out of local short tracks . I just bought my grandson a $160.00 chain for his mountain bike . I guess that makes me a financial backer and him something less than a 'true competitor' .
 
The biggest issue with Nascar today. Talent comes second in terms of things owners look at when hiring a young driver. Most up and comers are ride buyers, or have family connections. Pretty much the only exception to this that I can think of is Bubba Wallace.

Too many times we've seen talented drivers lose their rides to people with sponsorship. An example includes Ross Chastain. Chastain had a part-time 2013 truck campaign where if he'd run the full season, he'd have been in the hunt to win the championship. The only full-time driver with a better average finish than his in 2013 was Matt Crafton. So what does Brad Keselowski Racing do with this very talented young man? Does Brad give him a full-time ride? No, he fires him and hires Tyler Reddick, a ride buyer. One who has done nothing but disappoint.

This is all too common in Nascar today. Elliott Sadler is currently driving the #11 car for Joe Gibbs Racing in the Nationwide Series. Why? Because he has guaranteed sponsorship from One Main Financial. Gibbs lets Sadler run full-time while he has promising drivers like Drew Herring, Bubba Wallace, Erik Jones, and Michael McDowell either running in lower series or a part-time schedule.

RCR's entire stable, except for Ryan Newman, has either family connections or has bought a ride. This wasn't happening ten years ago.
Yeah, like that DAMN Richard Petty. Silver spoon spoiled brat. He wouldn't of gotten anywhere if it wasn't for his old man Lee Petty being a Cup superstar. /sarcasm

Racing is expensive. Nobody would be in this sport if their old man hadn't put them in a Saturday night stock car at 14 or 16 or whatever.
 
It's not just Nascar , in every sport , it takes lots of financial backing to make it to the top tier . Check out the struggle for sponsorship at your local track . He who can buy the best parts wins .The guys who can't attract sponsorship and bring it with them , never make it out of local short tracks . I just bought my grandson a $160.00 chain for his mountain bike . I guess that makes me a financial backer and him something less than a 'true competitor' .
It costs a lot more to field a race car than it does to play organized basketball.
 
It costs a lot more to field a race car than it does to play organized basketball.
Exactly. A lot of the guys in the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc. came from dirt poor backgrounds. But in those sports, the athlete IS the equipment, so if the talent and the work ethic is there, the opportunity will be there as well. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that in racing.
 
I agree that it is a problem but I not sure of any remedies.

Most reasons are money, other than family tree connections I think owners are racers at heart. It probably leaves a bad taste in their mouth too, economics probably forces the compromises.
Aside from drastic cost intervention rules which is a Pandoras box in itself, it will not get better.

I think one of the reasons the younger generation is less interested is the disconnection. The drivers are wealthy now, and a kid can only fantazize about attaining that level. But in real terms they know it is impossible, even if talented enough, presentation is almost impossibile. There are too many inbreeded princes and ride buyers, and talented peasents remains unknown.

And I realize that one occasionally breaks through, but they are exceptions not very representative.
 
These cars are so close.. With the best drivers in the world behind the wheel the only real difference is R&D.. Which is very expensive...

Can anyone really say money wasn't more important in the 70's and 80's? I mean Petty was obviously a fantastic driver but I just don't see talent alone getting someone 95 more wins than the next guy... I have to think RPM had to have had more money to put into it... And now with how much those dollars are worth these days and how tight the competition is because of uniform cars.. It goes back to R&D aka "Who has more money to put into this thing?" and "Who has the smartest engineers?"
 
This has been going on for some time. Maybe it's just now being noticed. I remember back in the late 90's when Buckshot Jones basically bought himself a ride with PE because he had Georgia Pacific as a sponsors. Jones was that era's John Wes Townley, had a big sponsor and tore up lots of equipment.
 
Let's be fair here - even on the local level, the dirt poor kid with talent isn't going to have the best car. Stock car racing favor money because the barrier to entry is being able to secure something that costs thousands of dollars. Unless your parent is willing to sacrifice their own financial security to back your dream (which does happen), you're going nowhere. Auto racing is a rich man's game.
 
Right now some guy is getting ready to race this weekend at his local short track. Given the right opportunity he'd drive circles around Jimmy, Jeff, Kyle, Jr etc
Right place at the right time seen by the right person.
 
Let's be fair here - even on the local level, the dirt poor kid with talent isn't going to have the best car. Stock car racing favor money because the barrier to entry is being able to secure something that costs thousands of dollars. Unless your parent is willing to sacrifice their own financial security to back your dream (which does happen), you're going nowhere. Auto racing is a rich man's game.
Even building and remodeling cars in your backyard is a rich man's hobby. I can get a gang of 10 guys together and play a game of touch football at the local park at no cost.

I know what I'm doing this weekend :cheers:
 
I agree with the poster who spoke about Larson. He is in Ganassi Equipment, yet he drives beyond the car. LOVE that about him.
Big E was like that too--give him a crap car and he would do more with it than anyone could.

Todays NASCAR is about marketing. If you can win at the souvenir hauler, it does not seem to matter where you place on track.
The fans are the only ones who can change that.
 
These cars are so close.. With the best drivers in the world behind the wheel the only real difference is R&D.. Which is very expensive...

Can anyone really say money wasn't more important in the 70's and 80's? I mean Petty was obviously a fantastic driver but I just don't see talent alone getting someone 95 more wins than the next guy... I have to think RPM had to have had more money to put into it... And now with how much those dollars are worth these days and how tight the competition is because of uniform cars.. It goes back to R&D aka "Who has more money to put into this thing?" and "Who has the smartest engineers?"

I agree with a lot of this, but there are so many variables that it is difficult to have a line by line or itemized discussion. Hence the topic is circular or an never ending loop.

You are correct: Petty Enterprises was a power house, but I think Richard himself was more mechanically inclined and self reliant than todays driver.

Money has always been huge, many drivers from every generation have came and went once they realized that the money alone wasnt enough.

I do believe a seasoned talented driver could make a bigger imprint on team back in the day. Bobby Allison is a good example imo, he hopped a lot of rides thru the years. I think he went to a lot of teams and very quickly upgraded them. I doubt that could happen today.
A driver isnt as powerful or instrumental today imo, and most all know they had better stay put once they have attained a premuim ride.

The days of a short track vetern lining up a decent one off deal is gone, the teams and their systems are just to developed now.
ex. Butch Lindley 1982 in a car owned by Emanuel Zervakis finished 2nd at the Martinsville Cup race and led almost as many laps as the winner Harry Gant.
 
These cars are so close.. With the best drivers in the world behind the wheel the only real difference is R&D.. Which is very expensive...

Can anyone really say money wasn't more important in the 70's and 80's? I mean Petty was obviously a fantastic driver but I just don't see talent alone getting someone 95 more wins than the next guy... I have to think RPM had to have had more money to put into it... And now with how much those dollars are worth these days and how tight the competition is because of uniform cars.. It goes back to R&D aka "Who has more money to put into this thing?" and "Who has the smartest engineers?"
You're right, but Petty Enterprises was an established team before it got tons of factory support and then STP sponsorship. The car Lee Petty won the 1959 Daytona 500 in was bought at a dealer for $3500 and made race-ready in his garage.
 
Im not saying its all money.. Clearly there are drivers who are better than others.. But there is so much more involved i just being a driver than just driving... The right ppl working together is what probably makes the biggest difference.. If of course they are backed by several millions of dollars.
 
I agree that it is a problem but I not sure of any remedies.

Most reasons are money, other than family tree connections I think owners are racers at heart. It probably leaves a bad taste in their mouth too, economics probably forces the compromises.
Aside from drastic cost intervention rules which is a Pandoras box in itself, it will not get better.

I think one of the reasons the younger generation is less interested is the disconnection. The drivers are wealthy now, and a kid can only fantazize about attaining that level. But in real terms they know it is impossible, even if talented enough, presentation is almost impossibile. There are too many inbreeded princes and ride buyers, and talented peasents remains unknown.

And I realize that one occasionally breaks through, but they are exceptions not very representative.

when you look at autosports compared to stick n ball, only a handful or auto racers can make a living compared to stick n ball numbers. Rags to riches stories are far and few between, Nascar is the only form of motorsport that the pioneers came from humble means, but that was only for a very short time. Big time sponsors were in place in the late 50's. Being rich, having celebrity or well connected gives you a shot at the big time, but it is far from being the biggest "issue" in Nascar. The whiner smoke mentioned Keselowski a good example of a racer who wasn't rich by any means, but he came from a family of hard working racers and when he got his chance he made something of it. Sorry it is not a poor boy from the hood story, but in auto racing that is pretty close. Autosport has always been called a rich mans sport. That being said on numerous small track world wide, racers are sacrificing and spending the rent money to go faster. It costs a heck of a lot more than a new pair of shoes and a ball.
 
I don't think any father put more into his kid's career than Jeff Gordon's step dad did. (A lot put just as much in)
 
Racing is very expensive, especially at nascar's top divisions. You can't expect a team owner to keep a driver in the seat if there is no sponsorship money with that driver.

If a driver comes with sponsorship he/she will be picked up by a team, and the drivers that don't have sponsorship will be replaced by one that does.

And yes it was happening 10 years ago.
 
it would be nice if owners could fund their programs equally and hire the best drivers but that is just not feasablie. Mostly because without sponsors, owners don't make money. It's a money pit to begin with but even the most weatlhly would get out if Sponsors didn't exist.

On the other hand, I don't understand how a driver who hasn't done anything in years keeps a sponsorship I mean I get sponsors being comfortable with a guy, but the better the driver performs, the more the sponsor will be on tv. Guys like Elliot Sadler are stealing money.
 
sometime before jr johnson quit........ $$ became more important than 1 man's brilliant race trick brain @ helm.
now takes lotsa brains ......= more $$ .

on flip side......brain power was great equalizer on tracks all across usa for decades.
better motor...better set up ....better driver...etc
still took $$.....but usually was always an elite group of "tribes " up at front .....1st ..2nd generations.
ie.---petty....kinser........etc
 
Sometimes it's hard to separate the money vs. the talent. Money can amplify talent, although extreme talent can compensate for money.

But I agree with the OP (WhiningSmoke) that it is "The biggest issue with Nascar today", although not exactly via his angle of reasoning.
The biggest issue NASCAR has is empty stands. Those lead to fewer sponsors, which in turn leads to fewer competitive teams, which leads to poorer races, which leads to emptier stands. It can become a vicious cycle.

You can slow the vicious cycle somewhat with talent. Talented drivers usually bring fans with them, at least for a while. But if the money needed to field a competitive team is too much then you all are right that talent can lose out to pretenders with money.

It's hard for an entity like NASCAR to hold costs back while still trying to be a top league. People assume that the top league has the most; in this case fastest cars. If NASCAR throttles costs too much then possibly a competing organization might become faster and claim its position on top. Throttling racer costs is about as effective as herding cats anyway... racers have and always will spend whatever they need to gain an edge.

But NASCAR does need to worry about the talent end - especially missing on talent that can put on a better show. The show is crucial to keeping fans, as well as attracting new fans and pleasing sponsors. Too much ride buying and NASCAR faces what killed CART. Indy type car racing has yet to recover from its ride buying of the 1980s.
 
Jeff Burton's son Harrison at the age of "13", is racing Super Late Models, good for him, but, with a family like he has he will be in the best and safest equipment available, how and why you ask, because his family is "RICH" in both money and racing background, and that is just fine with me.
 
Another prime example of money over talent (maybe) took place today when JGR put Daniel Suarez in a NNS car over Bubba Wallace and Erik Jones.
 
Another prime example of money over talent (maybe) took place today when JGR put Daniel Suarez in a NNS car over Bubba Wallace and Erik Jones.



Bubba is likely moving up too and Erik Jones will take over the 54 truck next year. Suarez is better then some of you guys are making him sound those 3 alone bode well for JGR's future.
 
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