Nationwide Cup-Lite Series

D

Digger

Guest
Here we go again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/nationwide/columns/story?columnist=blount_terry&id=4138982

Everybody knows how I feel. I want the Cup drivers totally banned from the Nationwide events and the Nationwide Series brought back to tracks like Fairgrounds Speedway Nashville and Myrtle Beach.

This type of thing, Cup drivers winning EVERY Nationwide race, didn't start until NASCAR decided to use the Nationwide and Truck Series races as companion events.

They think you won't come unless you can see Kyle Busch (among others) run roughshod over lesser competitors trying to learn their craft. Will you?
Click to expand...

15-40,000 people show up to any given ARCA event. They might not be able to sell 120,000 seats in Nationwide standalone events, but they could sell out Myrtle Beach pretty easily.

They think you don't care about whether up-and-comers like Justin Allgaier, John Wes Townley, Steve Wallace and Michael Annett have a fighting chance to compete. Do you?
Click to expand...

A lot of us real fans, those of us who go to our local tracks, love watching the up and comers go at it. The NASCAR Winter Heat Series and the Busch Grand National Series is how I got interested in NASCAR. Watching someone like Allgaier move up through the ranks is very exciting for any race fan.

They think it's OK with you if a talented kid like Stephen Leicht, a Nationwide race winner in 2007 at age 20, can't get a full-time ride in the series because sponsors want Cup stars in the cars. Is it?
Click to expand...

This needs to be repeated, over and over again.

A lot of our drivers are coming to Cup straight out of ARCA now. Teams don't think running the Nationwide Series is worth it since (a) NASCAR mandates you run at least 2 ARCA races and (b) Nationwide is just a shortened Cup race anyways.
 
Andy, I know you are young and eager to learn and talk about the sport, but you are a bit short here. The Busch series has always allowed Cuppers to race in that series. Most of the time, it was to help get people in the stands for the race and they have been running companion races for a long time. When they made the two series cars more comparable, then you started seeing more and more Cuppers in the lower series for testing purposes. But remember, it was Mark Martin who held the record number of wins in the lower series and most of those wins were prior to the big upsurge in Cuppers.

I used to be one of those like you who wished the Cuppers would stay out of the lower series, but not any more. As a fan of autoracing, it doesn't matter to me who or what is out there, as long as there is some great action. These days it's really like a double feature in NASCAR with a few newbies thrown in for good. Besides, it was a Nationwide regular who won the race at Taladega, so it works both ways.
 
buckaroo said:
Andy, I know you are young and eager to learn and talk about the sport, but you are a bit short here. The Busch series has always allowed Cuppers to race in that series. Most of the time, it was to help get people in the stands for the race and they have been running companion races for a long time. When they made the two series cars more comparable, then you started seeing more and more Cuppers in the lower series for testing purposes. But remember, it was Mark Martin who held the record number of wins in the lower series and most of those wins were prior to the big upsurge in Cuppers.

I used to be one of those like you who wished the Cuppers would stay out of the lower series, but not any more. As a fan of autoracing, it doesn't matter to me who or what is out there, as long as there is some great action. These days it's really like a double feature in NASCAR with a few newbies thrown in for good. Besides, it was a Nationwide regular who won the race at Taladega, so it works both ways.
Click to expand...

I, for one, have completely lost interest in the Nationwide Series.

Yes, having Cup guys in the races is good for the sport, as is companion weekends. But every weekend? Carl Edwards and Kyle Busch winning every race?

yawn.gif
snooze.gif


Only reason I'm watching any of the races this year is to see how well Allgaier and Lagasee do.

I'm saying, return to short tracks and run fewer companion events. Make the top-tier development series something for drivers to work to get to, and for tracks across the country to earn a date for.
 
I agree with Buck.

I have a lot less of a problem with a cup driver that is willing to make the commitment and run the complete schedule than I do the drivers that are cherry pick'n the races. JMHO!
 
AndyMarquisLIVE said:
Watching someone like Allgaier move up through the ranks is very exciting for any race fan.
Click to expand...
And it should be, because the kid is going to be something special in the Cup.

I think once you have 54 Cup starts(season and half), whether consecutive or not, you shouldn't be allowed at the Nationwide series. That isnt an arbitrary number either, through 54 Cup starts, the driver is likely young and taking his licks in the Cup so he could still use the Nationwide to hone his craft. For trucks, it would be 54 Nationwide starts+9 Cup starts.

Let the Nationwide and Truck series go back to what they used to be.
You start at local tracks, move on to ARCA or Camping World East/West series, then to Trucks, then to Nationwide, then to Cup. The way it should be.
 
buckaroo said:
When they made the two series cars more comparable, then you started seeing more and more Cuppers in the lower series for testing purposes.
Click to expand...

Earnhardt, Martin, Gant, and a few others ran a lot of Busch races in the old days. It wasn't until the went to the V-8 engines is when you saw the sudden increase in Cup drivers.

If NASCAR disallowed Cup drivers from competing in the NWS, it would be dead within 2 years. There would be no sponsors and no fans. I say let them race, but cap them at 15 races max.
 
Here's something that blows my mind...I tried to find the Nationwide race on the radio this weekend...Couldnt find it. Considering the area i live in is the home market for the sport and i cant find the race on WSOC. Thats a problem.
 
AndyMarquisLIVE said:
15-40,000 people show up to any given ARCA event. They might not be able to sell 120,000 seats in Nationwide standalone events, but they could sell out Myrtle Beach pretty easily
Click to expand...

Most ARCA races don't get as good of crowds as you think, and i've been to a few that were really bad.
 
GP, same here in WS. Statesville used to have a great country music station that carried all the races, but Cup and Busch now Nationwide. That station was sold and now it's out of Greensboro playing urban stuff. Go figure. Anyway, for whatever reason, listening to a race in the heart of Dixie is getting harder and harder.
 
I would like to see alot more stand alone events for the Nationwide series. They should have atleast half the season be stand alone races because it takes away from young drivers and drivers who have been looked over in cup. Every race there seems to be 15-20 cuppers in the race and it makes me think about how is a guy like Stephan Liecht supposed to drive. And how are guys like Allgaier, or even Steven Wallace supposed to succed when there going up against Roush and Carl Edwards and Gibbs and Kyle Busch.

I think when the season starts they need to say all cup drivers excluding rookies can only run a maxium of 5 races.
 
Its like telling tony stewart and those guys they cant race in a WoO LM show because they got cup experience or that kyle cant go run ASA cause he is a cup driver. The nationwide series is just that another group to race with and be in a race car.
 
wilson89 said:
I would like to see alot more stand alone events for the Nationwide series. They should have atleast half the season be stand alone races because it takes away from young drivers and drivers who have been looked over in cup. Every race there seems to be 15-20 cuppers in the race and it makes me think about how is a guy like Stephan Liecht supposed to drive. And how are guys like Allgaier, or even Steven Wallace supposed to succed when there going up against Roush and Carl Edwards and Gibbs and Kyle Busch.

I think when the season starts they need to say all cup drivers excluding rookies can only run a maxium of 5 races.
Click to expand...


If Nationwide ran at tracks without the Cup series there, I think it would eventually lead to more track closures. Because of the lack of attendance, I think the tracks would have trouble breaking even.
 
BobbyFord said:
If Nationwide ran at tracks without the Cup series there, I think it would eventually lead to more track closures. Because of the lack of attendance, I think the tracks would have trouble breaking even.
Click to expand...

How do Milwaukee, Nashville SS and Gateway stay open then? :rolleyes:

I'd like to see them race at tracks that are used every week than at big stadiums built to be used twice a year.
 
BobbyFord said:
If Nationwide ran at tracks without the Cup series there, I think it would eventually lead to more track closures. Because of the lack of attendance, I think the tracks would have trouble breaking even.
Click to expand...

I dont see how it would hurt considering most the tracks where the two race the same weekend the only people who seem to show up to the Nationwide race are people who went there to see the Cup series qualify or practice.

Instead of having 2 races at Fontana where the fans neglect both races those weekends have the cup race there and have the Nationwide race at a track like Pikes Peak or Rockingham where there on the verge of closing down if they dont get more races.
 
AndyMarquisLIVE said:
How do Milwaukee, Nashville SS and Gateway stay open then? :rolleyes:

I'd like to see them race at tracks that are used every week than at big stadiums built to be used twice a year.
Click to expand...

Milwaukee is on the verge of closing. I got a letter hinting thay may close next year.

And I found this
From The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel:

A co-chair of the state's Joint Legislative Audit Committee said it may be time for the state to abandon auto racing at State Fair Park and re-develop the Milwaukee Mile property after a report issued today found it continues to jeopardize the fair park's financial position.

Rep. Suzanne Jeskewitz issued the statement in response to the Legislative Audit report, which says State Fair Park will pick up nearly $1.2 million in costs related to the Milwaukee Mile this year, most of that because of contract amendments that reduced how much racing promoter Craig Stoehr and Milwaukee Mile Holdings LLC have to pay the park in licensing fees.

"We cannot continue to amend this agreement to the detriment of the taxpayer, and the state has proven it cannot operate this racetrack itself," said Jeskewitz.

"Perhaps it's time to determine if we need to cut our losses and redevelop the property."

State Fair Park Deputy Director and Chief Financial Officer Craig Barkelar said there will be no more revisions to the contract, but that it would be premature to shut down the nation's oldest continuously operated racetrack.

"It's premature to say it's not going to make it, at least for the foreseeable future," said Barkelar. "We have a contract, and we intend to honor that as long as they continue to pay their licensing fee."
Click to expand...
 
wilson89 said:
I dont see how it would hurt considering most the tracks where the two race the same weekend the only people who seem to show up to the Nationwide race are people who went there to see the Cup series qualify or practice.

Instead of having 2 races at Fontana where the fans neglect both races those weekends have the cup race there and have the Nationwide race at a track like Pikes Peak or Rockingham where there on the verge of closing down if they dont get more races.
Click to expand...

Or the Cup cars could race at Fontana and Nationwide cars race Irwindle. :beerbang:
 
buckaroo said:
GP, same here in WS. Statesville used to have a great country music station that carried all the races, but Cup and Busch now Nationwide. That station was sold and now it's out of Greensboro playing urban stuff. Go figure. Anyway, for whatever reason, listening to a race in the heart of Dixie is getting harder and harder.
Click to expand...

Buck...a buddy of mine's dad was the GM of WFMX while i was growing up. I was really upset when the station changed formats.

Not to mention, you can get the Greensboro station here in charlotte on a clear day, but its hard to get. When we lost WFMX, Charlotte basically was cut to two country stations.
 
IIRC way back when Nascar allowed Cup drivers into the Busch races when they ran together to pump up attendence. Over the years it appears to have gotten out of hand, IMHO of course.

It's a wonder any NNW team can survive, compare the payouts. It's not cheap to run a team at that level and when Cup regulars come in and suck up all the good sponsors and winning $$ it doesn't help. Look at recent races and see where NNW regulars normally finish.

For bonus points how many NNW regulars won last season? How many have won so far this year?
 
SST55 said:
IIRC way back when Nascar allowed Cup drivers into the Busch races when they ran together to pump up attendence. Over the years it appears to have gotten out of hand, IMHO of course.

It's a wonder any NNW team can survive, compare the payouts. It's not cheap to run a team at that level and when Cup regulars come in and suck up all the good sponsors and winning $$ it doesn't help. Look at recent races and see where NNW regulars normally finish.

For bonus points how many NNW regulars won last season? How many have won so far this year?
Click to expand...

2 last year - Logano and Keselowski.

0 this year.

Stephen Leicht doesn't have a ride at all. All of the up and comers get sucked in by Cup teams and then get the direct screw job from them. Childress screwing Leicht because he's trying to keep the seat warm for Austin Dillon. :mad:

Kelly Bires is running part-time in friggin' ARCA and select Nationwide races.

It's one thing to have Cup drivers in the series. It's another when 20 Cup drivers start every race, win every race and sweep the top-10 in point standings.
 
Thank you, you'll be recieving lovely parting gifts for participating.

NNW series regulars can't run for the win, they're running to finish first behind the cup drivers with cup team support.

Nascar has to make a decision. Eliminate cup drivers from NNW all together or limit them to a number, say 6 races at most . Give these NNW guys a chance.
 
Like everything else Arca likes to bump their numbers. They claim an average of 26,000 fans at the races. But, if it were so popular you would think their TV ratings would be higher. Neilsen ratings have them at .42, just ahead of F1 at .37 while NCTS is .75. And, we know how many fans are at the Truck races!
But, I do agree that Nationwide needs to have less companion races. I'd pair up the Trucks with the Cups. You'd have less bleed over and the trucks are better racing most times.
 
barelypure said:
Like everything else Arca likes to bump their numbers. They claim an average of 26,000 fans at the races. But, if it were so popular you would think their TV ratings would be higher. Neilsen ratings have them at .42, just ahead of F1 at .37 while NCTS is .75. And, we know how many fans are at the Truck races!
But, I do agree that Nationwide needs to have less companion races. I'd pair up the Trucks with the Cups. You'd have less bleed over and the trucks are better racing most times.
Click to expand...

I don't know about the big tracks, but I know for sure there were not 26,000 people at Rockingham. There may have been 20,000 (including teams and all) but I think that's stretching it.
 
Let me be in the minority on this. Why does anything have to change? Drivers from the Nationwide series have moved and will continue to move up into Cup regardless of Cup drivers running in that series.
 
Because Busch, aka the NNW series was the place for young drivers to get seat time, learn, get experience before moving up. Think of it as AAA baseball, a place to gain experience before hitting the major leagues.

Think of this, what chance do the Toledo Mudhens have against the Yankees, RedSox etc? Just look at the top ten finishers in NNW the past several years, winners who are strictly NNW are vastly outnumbered by the number of Nationwidewhackers.
 
SST55 said:
Because Busch, aka the NNW series was the place for young drivers to get seat time, learn, get experience before moving up. Think of it as AAA baseball, a place to gain experience before hitting the major leagues.

Think of this, what chance do the Toledo Mudhens have against the Yankees, RedSox etc? Just look at the top ten finishers in NNW the past several years, winners who are strictly NNW are vastly outnumbered by the number of Nationwidewhackers.
Click to expand...

You really don't have to try to explain the Nationwide series to me. I've been around a while. I just don't agree to the comparison. What better way is there to learn than to race against some of the best drivers out there? My only argument is that drivers are still going to come from this series regardless of Cup drivers running in the series.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Let me be in the minority on this. Why does anything have to change? Drivers from the Nationwide series have moved and will continue to move up into Cup regardless of Cup drivers running in that series.
Click to expand...

You're missing the point - they're not. They make it up to Nationwide, get sucked in by a superteam, run one race and then get thrown out and go back to ARCA or ASA or wherever they can get a ride.

Stephen Leicht, Brad Coleman, Marc Davis, Colin Braun, Todd Kleuver.... there's a long list of names of talented drivers who are without a ride because the Cup teams and Cup drivers run Nationwide.

The fact is only one driver has been moved up to Cup full-time from Nationwide last season, and that was Logano who already had that Cup deal pretty much solidified before he even ran Nationwide. 2008 - Regan Smith and Aric Almirola both moved up to subpar rides.

There are many problems with this. The races have become boring and predictable. It's hurting the sport. It may not be showing now, but 6 years from now, when NASCAR's still looking for the first female or first african-American winner or whatever, it will.

Let's be honest - seperate venues won't help - Carl Edwards still wins at Gateway, Memphis and Nashville.

The provisional system didn't help - Kevin Harvick, Greg Biffle, Carl Edwards, Clint Bowyer are all former champions and will get a ride anyways.

What more can you do? No matter what NASCAR does, Jack Roush and Joe Gibbs are still going to have the Cup drivers running the whole season. :rolleyes:
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
You really don't have to try to explain the Nationwide series to me. I've been around a while. I just don't agree to the comparison. What better way is there to learn than to race against some of the best drivers out there? My only argument is that drivers are still going to come from this series regardless of Cup drivers running in the series.
Click to expand...

Incorrect.

Drivers are coming up from the ARCA Series and failing because they don't have enough seat time to compete in Cup. (see: Scott Speed and Michael McDowell).
 
I'm not sure what to tell you. There just aren't that many rides that open up every year. That's simply the way it is. If a driver has that much talent, he'll have a ride. IMO taking the Cup driver out of the series will do absolutely nothing to help promote it.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I'm not sure what to tell you. There just aren't that many rides that open up every year. That's simply the way it is. If a driver has that much talent, he'll have a ride. IMO taking the Cup driver out of the series will do absolutely nothing to help promote it.
Click to expand...

None of the rides are opening up because Cup drivers have all the good rides. :rolleyes:

What is there to promote? A bunch of Cup drivers dominating minor league races?
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I'm not sure what to tell you. There just aren't that many rides that open up every year. That's simply the way it is. If a driver has that much talent, he'll have a ride. IMO taking the Cup driver out of the series will do absolutely nothing to help promote it.
Click to expand...


The rides don't open up because a cup driver is in the seat. Plain and simple.
If the cup driver wasn't there then more talent could move up. Cup drivers are taking seats that the next generation of cup drivers should have access too.
 
AndyMarquisLIVE said:
None of the rides are opening up because Cup drivers have all the good rides. :rolleyes:

What is there to promote? A bunch of Cup drivers dominating minor league races?
Click to expand...

I'll agree to disagree on this one. After all, it's no fun on here if everyone agrees with each other. :beerbang:
 
AndyMarquisLIVE said:
Stephen Leicht doesn't have a ride at all. All of the up and comers get sucked in by Cup teams and then get the direct screw job from them. Childress screwing Leicht because he's trying to keep the seat warm for Austin Dillon. :mad:
Click to expand...

What im pissed at about that is Tim McCreadie quit his full time late model racing to go run for richard and had decent races was doing well and then was told that he was being let go for Stephen Leicht simply because he had sponsors with him. Where are those sponsors now? Tim had to go back and start his late model operation again from nothing.
 
basscatcher89 said:
What im pissed at about that is Tim McCreadie quit his full time late model racing to go run for richard and had decent races was doing well and then was told that he was being let go for Stephen Leicht simply because he had sponsors with him. Where are those sponsors now? Tim had to go back and start his late model operation again from nothing.
Click to expand...

Jeff Burton, Clint Bowyer and Austin Dillon (RC's grandson)
 
AndyMarquisLIVE said:
Care to give me a list of Nationwide graduates to move up to Cup over the past 3 years?
Click to expand...

This is absolutely killing my production at work today but here's a list of your rookies over the past three years. A huge influx of open-wheel drivers have been entering the sport recently but that's kinda been the trend lately.

2006 - Denny Hamlin, Clint Bowyer, Martin Truex Jr., Reed Sorenson, J. J. Yeley, David Stremme, David Gilliland, Chad Chaffin, Brent Sherman

2007 - Juan Pablo Montoya, David Ragan. Paul Menard, David Reutimann, A. J. Allmendinger, Brandon Whitt

2008 - Regan Smith, Sam Hornish, Jr., Patrick Carpentier, Michael McDowell, Aric Almirola, Marcos Ambrose, Dario Franchitti, Jacques Villeneuve
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
This is absolutely killing my production at work today but here's a list of your rookies over the past three years. A huge influx of open-wheel drivers have been entering the sport recently but that's kinda been the trend lately.

2006 - Denny Hamlin, Clint Bowyer, Martin Truex Jr., Reed Sorenson, J. J. Yeley, David Stremme, David Gilliland, Chad Chaffin, Brent Sherman

2007 - Juan Pablo Montoya, David Ragan. Paul Menard, David Reutimann, A. J. Allmendinger, Brandon Whitt

2008 - Regan Smith, Sam Hornish, Jr., Patrick Carpentier, Michael McDowell, Aric Almirola, Marcos Ambrose, Dario Franchitti, Jacques Villeneuve
Click to expand...

Most if not all with sponsors or "connections" to them, it is all about $$ not about the talent.
 
Do you care to give us a list of cup rides that were available for these "graduates" to move up to?

I agree with dpkimmel2001 on this, we'll just agree to disagree. It's real clear nothing any one else says will change your opinion, and it's pretty clear you'll not change my opinion.

There is nothing to debate because we're discussing opinions, and everyone's opinion is unique. You may not agree with anothers opinion, but no opinion is wrong. Now if we were trying to pass off our opinions as fact then there could be a debate about it.
 
You keep bringing up Austil Dillon and acting like hes where hes at because of his grandpa and ignore the fact that he has ALOT of talent. This is a poor example. He probably wont even break into the Cup with RCR(given the contracts RCR has Dillon will probably break in with Earnhardt Ganassi or a lower tier team like Front Row).
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
This is absolutely killing my production at work today but here's a list of your rookies over the past three years. A huge influx of open-wheel drivers have been entering the sport recently but that's kinda been the trend lately.

2006 - Denny Hamlin, Clint Bowyer, Martin Truex Jr., Reed Sorenson, J. J. Yeley (open wheel), David Stremme, David Gilliland, Chad Chaffin (Trucks), Brent Sherman (ARCA)

2007 - Juan Pablo Montoya (F1, ran more ARCA races than NNS before entering Cup), David Ragan (ARCA, some reality TV show). Paul Menard (Papa John), David Reutimann (CWTS), A. J. Allmendinger (open wheel), Brandon Whitt :)confused:)

2008 - Regan Smith (see how he got the screw job, twice:lol2:), Sam Hornish, Jr. (IRL), Patrick Carpentier (open wheel), Michael McDowell (ARCA), Aric Almirola (you remember him getting the screw job from Gibbs?), Marcos Ambrose, Dario Franchitti (IRL, ran more ARCA than NNS before entering Cup), Jacques Villeneuve (open wheel)
Click to expand...

2009 - Joey Logano (Camping World East), Scott Speed (F1, ARCA)

So, in the past three years (2007, 2008, 2009), there have been 2 drivers to move to Cup from Nationwide. One of them got screwed by Teresa (actually, Teresa screwed a lot of people over), and the other one has run half a season.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom