Nationwide Cup-Lite Series

[Eagle1]

Most if not all with sponsors or "connections" to them, it is all about $$ not about the talent.

WHO?


Menards and Brent Sherman are the only ones on that list that came with a sponsr in his pocket.

A. J. Allmendinger was hired by a team that the sponsor owns, so he didn't bring a sponsor or money to the team.


In my opinion Aric Almirola screwed himself to jump ship from JGR to Ginn, then dumped at DEI a very short time later. Had he stayed where he was and been a team player the chances are very good he may be in the #20 car today.


Give me a list of the driver and the sponsor he brought in to get the ride over someone else that had more talent, and how much money did he bring to the team to buy his ride..

 

[Digger]

You keep bringing up Austil Dillon and acting like hes where hes at because of his grandpa and ignore the fact that he has ALOT of talent. This is a poor example. He probably wont even break into the Cup with RCR(given the contracts RCR has Dillon will probably break in with Earnhardt Ganassi or a lower tier team like Front Row).

I've never seen him race so I don't know if he's got talent or not... he's also had Childress equipment on his side the whole time in CWES. And, if he wasn't Richard Childress' grandson, he wouldn't have gotten the media attention he's gotten and he would probably be in the same situation as Trevor Bayne, Sean Caisse and Brian Ickler.

 

[Digger]

Had he stayed where he was and been a team player the chances are very good he may be in the #20 car today.

Team player meant practicing and qualifying the car for Denny Hamlin.

Remember the mess at Milwaukee?

 

[Eagle1]

2009 - Joey Logano (Camping World East), Scott Speed (F1, ARCA)

So, in the past three years (2007, 2008, 2009), there have been 2 drivers to move to Cup from Nationwide. One of them got screwed by Teresa (actually, Teresa screwed a lot of people over), and the other one has run half a season.

So why is it that, and where is it written that all Cup rookies are supposed to come from the Nationwide Series?

That's just pure BS, it's a matter of picking guys with experience. Should be about putting the most talent in the seat regardless of where they race.

I suppose you'd rather see the no talents that really shouldn't even be in Nationwide series get the rides just because they had a ride in Nationwide?

Actually there's a couple of them there now that should be run off.

 

[Digger]

So why is it that, and where is it written that all Cup rookies are supposed to come from the Nationwide Series?

That's just pure BS, it's a matter of picking guys with experience. Should be about putting the most talent in the seat regardless of where they race.

I suppose you'd rather see the no talents that really shouldn't even be in Nationwide series get the rides just because they had a ride in Nationwide?

Actually there's a couple of them there now that should be run off.

Because Scott Speed has enough experience to run in Cup.

He's been racing stock cars one whole year. Red "Bull" pulled him straight from F1 in to ARCA. Then, Red "Bull" screwed AJ Allmendinger straight in his rectal cavity to put Speed in that car.

Allmendinger, a driver who's good enough to put top 10s and top 15s on the board every week, ends up racing for Pity (yes, I said Pity) Motorsports.

 

[Digger]

Then again, ARCA should be enough experience because there's no difference between an ARCA stock car and a Nationwide car

 

[Eagle1]

Team player meant practicing and qualifying the car for Denny Hamlin.

Remember the mess at Milwaukee?

Yes I do, but that's what he was hired to do and that's what the people paying the bills (the sponsor) wanted to happen. And yes exactly that is what a team player is, jumping up and doing what you need to do for the team. Sometimes you like it, sometimes you don't but as long as it's not illegal you do what you have to to advance the whole team.

You may not like it, but if you were paying the bills you'd have the right to make that call, if not, you don't.

It doesn't seem to matter to many that there are contracts in place with sponsors naming the driver they are paying for and can only be changed with their permission. Had JGR not put Denny in the car they would have been in breech of contract.
If I remember that event as I believe I do, both JGR nor Denny wanted to pul Aric out of the car.

 

[toledo47]

This is absolutely killing my production at work today but here's a list of your rookies over the past three years. A huge influx of open-wheel drivers have been entering the sport recently but that's kinda been the trend lately.

2006 - Denny Hamlin, Clint Bowyer, Martin Truex Jr., Reed Sorenson, J. J. Yeley (open wheel), David Stremme, David Gilliland, Chad Chaffin (Trucks), Brent Sherman (ARCA)

2007 - Juan Pablo Montoya (F1, ran more ARCA races than NNS before entering Cup), David Ragan (ARCA, some reality TV show). Paul Menard (Papa John), David Reutimann (CWTS), A. J. Allmendinger (open wheel), Brandon Whitt ()

2008 - Regan Smith (see how he got the screw job, twice), Sam Hornish, Jr. (IRL), Patrick Carpentier (open wheel), Michael McDowell (ARCA), Aric Almirola (you remember him getting the screw job from Gibbs?), Marcos Ambrose, Dario Franchitti (IRL, ran more ARCA than NNS before entering Cup), Jacques Villeneuve (open wheel)

JJ Yeley ran full Busch for a year or 2 before cup, not just open wheel.
Montoya ran more Busch in 2006 than ARCA.
Franchitti ran more Busch than ARCA in 2007.

 

[Eagle1]

You see you continue trying to argue opinions trying to tell people their wrong because they don't agree with yours.

NONE of the BS you've posted are facts, it is YOUR opinion.

I totally disagree, my opinion is WAY different than yours so therefore have said I'd agree to disagree, there is no point arguing.

You can throw all the around you want, that don't make you right. Fact is it might just prove how little you know.

 

[Eagle1]

Then again, ARCA should be enough experience because there's no difference between an ARCA stock car and a Nationwide car

Oh Andy, aren't the ARCA cars old cup cars? And all the drivers have said they could learn a lot from Sat. for Sunday because they handled so much alike.

take your and shove it.

 

[Digger]

You see you continue trying to argue opinions trying to tell people their wrong because they don't agree with yours.

NONE of the BS you've posted are facts, it is YOUR opinion.

I totally disagree, my opinion is WAY different than yours so therefore have said I'd agree to disagree, there is no point arguing.

You can throw all the around you want, that don't make you right. Fact is it might just prove how little you know.

Oh Andy, aren't the ARCA cars old cup cars? And all the drivers have said they could learn a lot from Sat. for Sunday because they handled so much alike.

take your and shove it.

LOL, that's an ass of a thing to say. All the drivers they interview talk about how there are very few similarities between the old cars and the Car of Today.

For one, it appears the COT gets looser over the long run, not tighter. Jaws Waltrip points that out every race.

 

[Digger]

This message has been removed due to inappropriateness of language...

 

[Eagle1]

LOL, that's an ass of a thing to say. All the drivers they interview talk about how there are very few similarities between the old cars and the Car of Today.

For one, it appears the COT gets looser over the long run, not tighter. Jaws Waltrip points that out every race.

Thank you, you proved my point. The guys you listed that ran more ARCA ran them while Cup was still running the old car, so the cars they were driving was the same as the old cup cars that was being raced at the time.

However the Busch / Nationwide cars were totally different to the old car and more so to the COT so how is it better training than any other form of racing? So IMHO if no one has experience in the COT but that is what they ae going to be racing I'd pick a guy with real racing experience over someone just because they raced in Nationwide series.

Yeah Andy I see how many wins in other series, championships in other series, Indy 500 winners, F-1 GP winners could be looked down on they certainly don't have no racing experience. Go tell tht to Andretti, Foyt, Unser, Allison, Stewart and many others cause they didn't go through the Andy approved way for advancement.

 

[Digger]

Thank you, you proved my point. The guys you listed that ran more ARCA ran them while Cup was still running the old car, so the cars they were driving was the same as the old cup cars that was being raced at the time.

However the Busch / Nationwide cars were totally different to the old car and more so to the COT so how is it better training than any other form of racing? So IMHO if no one has experience in the COT but that is what they ae going to be racing I'd pick a guy with real racing experience over someone just because they raced in Nationwide series.

Yeah Andy I see how many wins in other series, championships in other series, Indy 500 winners, F-1 GP winners could be looked down on they certainly don't have no racing experience. Go tell tht to Andretti, Foyt, Unser, Allison, Stewart and many others cause they didn't go through the Andy approved way for advancement.

So let me get this right, someone who drives a 1500 pound IndyCar with bigger wheels is more qualified to run in Sprint Cup than someone who's run Nationwide?

Montoya, Hornish, Franchitti, Yeley, Villeneuve, Allmendinger and Carpentier all acount for, count 'em, 2 wins across the three premiere NASCAR divisions. Remove Montoya's name from the list and they all count up to 0 wins.

 

[buckaroo]

Because Busch, aka the NNW series was the place for young drivers to get seat time, learn, get experience before moving up. Think of it as AAA baseball, a place to gain experience before hitting the major leagues.

Think of this, what chance do the Toledo Mudhens have against the Yankees, RedSox etc? Just look at the top ten finishers in NNW the past several years, winners who are strictly NNW are vastly outnumbered by the number of Nationwidewhackers.

Let me ask you this. would you rather see a Mudhen game and then a Yankee game, or a double header with the Yanks against the BoSox? Nothing against the Mudhens, but give me the majors any time. If you want to watch kids come up through the ranks, head for your local track, or better yet, go sit with Andy and watch the ARCA series. As for me, I'll take my local track over the Nationwide and Cup series any time, but then again, I can't see my local boys running on TV or able to record their races. Again, I want to see good racing and with the top teams running in the Nationwide series, I'm still seeing it. Doesn't matter to me if Joe Gibbs puts in a gifted newcomer in one of his cars, or the next Jeff Gordon. I don't care if Jack Roush has Greg Biffle or in the old days, Mark Martin in one of his cars. I don't care if Richard Childress fields the #2 car or the #29 car or who he puts in it, I'm wanting to see the race. But there is one caveat to all of this for me, and thankfully it doesn't pertain to me. If I were associated with what I felt was a kid with great potential, I sure would want to see him show off in any series, but it has become more and more difficult for that to happen in the Nationwide series. Unfortunately, NASCAR has become much like the old USAC, then CART and IRL series, show us the sponsorship and we'll give you a shot. Hey, it's becoming like that on the local scene. A kid with money has a really good lever.

 

[GREAT AMERICAN RACE FAN]

Good arguments on such a subject that I have debated over the years. I used to go to Busch races in the past, when Earnhardt and Gant and others used to race. I usually was disappointed because Earnhardt would not win them all. The series was more competitive then. The big timers never used to double dip at Orange County, Asheville, or even Hickory. Well sometimes Jarrett, Gant, and Even Earnhardt would do Hickory, cause it was usually on a off Weekend. Imagine that, off weekend in Cup. David Green or Bobby Labonte would beat the cup Regulars. Heck, Dick Trickle thrilled me when he won at Hickory. But now is a different time. Money rules the sport. The next best thing get's the rides. It is a different business now, a side of NASCAR that I do not like. Because of the way it is now, I have lost interest in the Busch series. I really lose interest in Cup when they go to all the non traditional "FOREIGN" tracks. I would like to see a coming back to roots of the Busch series, but big business doesn't dictate that. Unfortunatley, cup will not survive without the Double Dippers these days.

 

[Mopardh9]

Good arguments on such a subject that I have debated over the years. I used to go to Busch races in the past, when Earnhardt and Gant and others used to race. I usually was disappointed because Earnhardt would not win them all. The series was more competitive then. The big timers never used to double dip at Orange County, Asheville, or even Hickory. Well sometimes Jarrett, Gant, and Even Earnhardt would do Hickory, cause it was usually on a off Weekend. Imagine that, off weekend in Cup. David Green or Bobby Labonte would beat the cup Regulars. Heck, Dick Trickle thrilled me when he won at Hickory. But now is a different time. Money rules the sport. The next best thing get's the rides. It is a different business now, a side of NASCAR that I do not like. Because of the way it is now, I have lost interest in the Busch series. I really lose interest in Cup when they go to all the non traditional "FOREIGN" tracks. I would like to see a coming back to roots of the Busch series, but big business doesn't dictate that. Unfortunatley, cup will not survive without the Double Dippers these days.

I'll take the local scene over all the Cup and Cup Lite guys any day. You are right the $ dictates what happens , not only in Cup, but even at the local scene. I was talking with my mechanic yesterday, was waiting to get the oil changed on my Subaru, he was telling me how his son was racing at Stafford in a Mod Lite. This is bascially a regular Modified with a spec engine and a little different gearing. Now his kid was rookie of the year last year, would of probably finished on the top 5 in points had it not been for a bad crash near the end of the season. They have backing from a very lucrative business in town , Flamingo Motorsports, which sponsors a late model, Mile Stefaniks Modified on the Whelen Tour, and the Mod Lite. Money rules, money buys speed, and the best equipment. It is all about sponsorship even at the local level now. When I was a kid it was all about who was the best engineer and mechanic, who could "build" the best. Now you just go out and buy the best.

 

[dpkimmel2001]

I think that we all tend to forget just how dominating that some of those Cup drivers were back in the day that they ran in the Nationwide series. Just a few of the numbers for a reminder.....

Dale Earnhardt won 15.4% of the Nationwide races entered
Harry Gant 16.4%
Mark Martin 20.7%

Today's crop.....
Kyle Busch 16.2%
Carl Edwards 13.3%
Kevin Harvick 15%

Not much of a difference IMO.

 

[Newracefan]

I think that we all tend to forget just how dominating that some of those Cup drivers were back in the day that they ran in the Nationwide series. Just a few of the numbers for a reminder.....

Dale Earnhardt won 15.4% of the Nationwide races entered
Harry Gant 16.4%
Mark Martin 20.7%

Today's crop.....
Kyle Busch 16.2%
Carl Edwards 13.3%
Kevin Harvick 15%

Not much of a difference IMO.

Interesting stat but my question is how many races/year did they run and was it cup teams dipping into NW or NW teams getting cup drivers? I have less of a problem with what Kevin Harvick is doing this year, yes it is a Childress helped team but it's not RCR like what Carl/Roush and Kyle/JGR are doing

 

[Digger]

You keep bringing up Austil Dillon and acting like hes where hes at because of his grandpa and ignore the fact that he has ALOT of talent. This is a poor example. He probably wont even break into the Cup with RCR(given the contracts RCR has Dillon will probably break in with Earnhardt Ganassi or a lower tier team like Front Row).

15 34 31 Austin Dillon/Welcome NC RCR Chevrolet 100 Running

Yep, he's the second coming of Dale Earnhardt.

Honestly, in the quality of equipment he was in, he should've led every lap of that race and won it easily. Or, at the least, finished in the top 5.

 

[speedwayphoto]

a little different take on this..........
Cuppers coming in and beatin the "lil guys" is nothin new. If ya look back at the books, you will see name like Weatherly, Turner, Flock, etc back in the day..... then you will see names like Earnhardt, Waltrip, Pearson, etc durin the formative years, then when it began gettin big ( not long after it became the "Busch Series", you still had Earnhardt, Martin, Gant, etc double dippin. So the stars comin in is nothin new.......
where I think the problem is comes from a couple of different directions. First, the fans......... ( and please dont take this one personally if you are new to NASCAR.....) but there are some new fans who could care less...... they barely know who drives what in Cup, and they are NOT goin to watch a "lesser" race. They Want to see "THE RACE", ie, the 500, not the minor league saturday race. They are the ones NASCAR seems to want to cater to. The newbie fans who are there because its the "latest fad"....The real fans, the ones who went on Saturdays back in the day dont show up as much, because quite frankly, NASCAR has done a heck of a job in runnin them off. Bring back the days of Ingram, Ard, Gant, Houston and the rest fightin it out ( on and off the track) at places like South Boston, Hickory, Myrtle Beach, etc..... Won't happen, because NASCAR would prefer that even the companion races be showcased at premier facilities. Like it or not, the Busch series, and before that, the Sportsman series showcased young talent and wiley veterans who were hungry and fought over every spot...... hopin to get the "call" to the Sunday show...... Now its full of top notched Cup teams like Edwards and Bush and Harvick who are there to race. Don't penalize those guys because they are racers....... But I will say it does bother me some of these guys ( I wont mention names, but its not hard to figure out...) who have cup rides, and arent doin much there, but are just good enough to make the NNS races, and fill spots there that would be much better served with younger, hungrier talent.
Another problem with NNS.... there is no consistency...... I remember when you watched a drivers for several years make a name for themselves in Busch, then they moved up. With that, you got to know the drivers, you got rivalries, you got excitement..... it helped BOTH series...... now it seems like a driver wins a race at some track, and suddenly Gibbs, Hendrick, or whoever signs them, they show up at a truck race or two, maybe an ARCA race, and wham, they are in Cup.......
So how do ya fix it??? Be danged if I know.......lol. I think it needs to be looked at tho, but I doubt it will get fixed. The horse is already out of the stable. Money runs the show now, and so many changes have been made, it will never be like it was........ but hey, I am just thankful that I got to see alot of it....... and still get to enjoy it at a local level. and no, I'm not one of these that will turn my back on NASCAR for what it has become, but neither am I one who will be silent when I think they are headed in the wrong direction ( even if few or any ever listen to me, and even less care what I say......lol)