new question

ted@economy

ted@economy

in the interest of equal time
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
8,893
Points
643
Location
canada
There seems to be a total disconnect on here about the value of team and crew chief to a driver . Some say that if a driver has the talent , he can make the chase with a new team in total disarry . e.g. Keven Harvick and Kurt Busch next year . This is in spite of the fact that top notch drivers like Brad , Carl and Jeff Gordon(almost ) couldn't make the chase on talent alone .
On the other hand , when the Jimmie Johnson record of championships comes up , the automatic reply is , " Well that's all Chad and the team".
I know there have been some flashes of amazing feats like Kenseth this year , but , historically , hasn't great driving required a great crew chief and a great team?
 
Great driving is what wins races BUT races must include a great crew chief to make judgement calls. Racing post 1980's a driver alone might have won a race but in this era of racing fuel mileage, pit stops (short pit or no) tires changes (one side or both sides) fuel mileage (come in for a "splash" or gamble) and getting everything together makes racing more of a team sport. I wish we could have seen Jimmy Johnson and Dale Earnhardt, Sr. race. I think that would have Jimmie Johnson doubters how talented Johnson is since so many use Earnhardt, Sr., as the standard all other drivers are compared too.
 
NASCAR is just like any other team sport, you're only as good as your worst player.
 
There's no question that some drivers are better than others.

Therefore, a driver like Johnson isn't likely to fall of out the chase simply because Knaus isn't on the box. The sky didn't fall on the #24 team when Evernham left and the fact that you, me or half the planet dislikes a certain driver, doesn't reflect one iota on how good that driver actually is.

The BEST drivers find a way to the top, no matter the pitfalls and KEEP themselves there. The rest play supporting roles.

Excuses, blame and/or popularity don't win races or championships - ability and determination do, however.
 
#17D500winner said:
There's no question that some drivers are better than others.

Therefore, a driver like Johnson isn't likely to fall of out the chase simply because Knaus isn't on the box. The sky didn't fall on the #24 team when Evernham left and the fact that you, me or half the planet dislikes a certain driver, doesn't reflect one iota on how good that driver actually is.

The BEST drivers find a way to the top, no matter the pitfalls and KEEP themselves there. The rest play supporting roles.

Excuses, blame and/or popularity don't win races or championships - ability and determination do, however.
Click to expand...
How do you explain Kenseth's performance this year and lack of performance last year?
 
BobbyFord said:
How do you explain Kenseth's performance this year and lack of performance last year?
Click to expand...
I think there are exceptions to every rule Bobby , could it happen again? Don't think so . In the case of Kevin and Kurt , they aren't even going to established teams .
 
Its all the team.. the driver tells them what the car feels like.. and they make it better... not the driver.. if they get to the track and you have the driver with no team, or a team that doesnt work well together... ur not gona win a race... period. Doesn't matter how good you are if the car wont handle.. and a driver ain't about to fix it by himself... and thats not even talking about the crew guys... lol how many races are won and lost in the pits? So that rear tire changer that just changed a tire faster than he ever has before... did more than the driver to win that race.. but no one cares... the crew chief that calls for 2 tires.. etc.... no team.. no success. I dont care if your Danica or Jimmie Johnson.. without the right team behind them and working well with them.. they have nothing.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Its all the team.. the driver tells them what the car feels like.. and they make it better... not the driver.. if they get to the track and you have the driver with no team, or a team that doesnt work well together... ur not gona win a race... period. Doesn't matter how good you are if the car wont handle.. and a driver ain't about to fix it by himself... and thats not even talking about the crew guys... lol how many races are won and lost in the pits? So that rear tire changer that just changed a tire faster than he ever has before... did more than the driver to win that race.. but no one cares... the crew chief that calls for 2 tires.. etc.... no team.. no success. I dont care if your Danica or Jimmie Johnson.. without the right team behind them and working well with them.. they have nothing.
Click to expand...
Joey is another guy who did very well in his first year with a new team. The team was already established ,at least ,but he did overcome ,maybe it's becoming easier.
 
The fact that Kenseth won 7 races this year tells me that some of the other teams may need to step it up a bit. Kenseth may be a decent driver but he isnt a Kyle Busch by any means IMO

Crew chiefs really do matter and being stuck with a mediocre one for several years must really suck :(
How many more years is Kyle going to have his :rolleyes:
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Its all the team.. the driver tells them what the car feels like.. and they make it better... not the driver.. if they get to the track and you have the driver with no team, or a team that doesnt work well together... ur not gona win a race... period. Doesn't matter how good you are if the car wont handle.. and a driver ain't about to fix it by himself... and thats not even talking about the crew guys... lol how many races are won and lost in the pits? So that rear tire changer that just changed a tire faster than he ever has before... did more than the driver to win that race.. but no one cares... the crew chief that calls for 2 tires.. etc.... no team.. no success. I dont care if your Danica or Jimmie Johnson.. without the right team behind them and working well with them.. they have nothing.
Click to expand...

Amen to that Sliced .............. you nailed it right there :)
 
So we all seem to agree that chemistry within a team is important. How many years does it take to figure out that there is no chemistry within a team and that the crew chief (who may be a friend of the driver) needs to go bye bye
 
Kyle18fan said:
The fact that Kenseth won 7 races this year tells me that some of the other teams may need to step it up a bit. Kenseth may be a decent driver but he isnt a Kyle Busch by any means IMO

Crew chiefs really do matter and being stuck with a mediocre one for several years must really suck :(
How many more years is Kyle going to have his :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Kyle is another guy who didn't make the chase in 2012 , in spite of the fact that he is a very talented driver . Proving , I think ,that it takes a lot more than just talent.
 
BobbyFord said:
How do you explain Kenseth's performance this year and lack of performance last year?
Click to expand...

With the exception of two years, Kenseth has been in the top ten, 10 years out of the last 12. 6 of those years he has been in the top 5. So I don't see where all this hype about his lack of performance and how great the switch to Gibbs hoopla is all about. He wins five races this year..great..He has been a top performer for years.
 
StandOnIt said:
With the exception of two years, Kenseth has been in the top ten, 10 years out of the last 12. 6 of those years he has been in the top 5. So I don't see where all this hype about his lack of performance and how great the switch to Gibbs hoopla is all about. He wins five races this year..great..He has been a top performer for years.
Click to expand...
What other year besides 2013 did Kenseth get 7 Cup wins?
 
Kyle18fan said:
So we all seem to agree that chemistry within a team is important. How many years does it take to figure out that there is no chemistry within a team and that the crew chief (who may be a friend of the driver) needs to go bye bye
Click to expand...
Hard to say.. it depends on the situation I guess. The owner has a lot of time and money invested in these guys and has to look at it from every angle to decide who to put where, who needs to go etc. I dont envy them for that at all lol.
 
StandOnIt said:
With the exception of two years, Kenseth has been in the top ten, 10 years out of the last 12. 6 of those years he has been in the top 5. So I don't see where all this hype about his lack of performance and how great the switch to Gibbs hoopla is all about. He wins five races this year..great..He has been a top performer for years.
Click to expand...
There's the difference though. He's winning now. He was always a quiet good finisher, he reminded me of Biffle for a while. Always getting top 5's and 10's.. and a couple wins a season. This year he won the most races in spite of the switch to a new team and made headlines. Thats why "he's better now".. he never got better. Just found better people to work with and won more.
 
ted@economy said:
Kyle is another guy who didn't make the chase in 2012 , in spite of the fact that he is a very talented driver . Proving , I think ,that it takes a lot more than just talent.
Click to expand...
2012 was a tough year for Kyle with all the mechanical issues that he had. DNFing 3 races in a row hurts a bit.
 
Kyle18fan said:
2012 was a tough year for Kyle with all the mechanical issues that he had. DNFing 3 races in a row hurts a bit.
Click to expand...
You sound like me about Joey this year.... it reeeally doesn't matter though. No one remembers all that... they remember the final points standings.. and usually not that far back ;)
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Hard to say.. it depends on the situation I guess. The owner has a lot of time and money invested in these guys and has to look at it from every angle to decide who to put where, who needs to go etc. I dont envy them for that at all lol.
Click to expand...

I dont envy them either, but the "maybe it will be better next year" approach doesnt seem to work too well
 
SlicedBread22 said:
You sound like me about Joey this year.... it reeeally doesn't matter though. No one remembers all that... they remember the final points standings.. and usually not that far back ;)
Click to expand...

I remember all the crap that happens to my favorite driver Sliced, but tend to forget all about Joey :laugh:
Does Joey still race :waver:or did he quit after he married his sister ???
 
Kyle18fan said:
I remember all the crap that happens to my favorite driver Sliced, but tend to forget all about Joey :laugh:
Does Joey still race :waver:
Click to expand...
Exactly.. but I know all about what happened with Joey... you think I care why Kyle didn't make the chase in 2012 though? Nope... everyone is biased and pays more attention to the people who win more.. and their driver.. but if their driver isn't the one winning a lot, they're the only ones watching them... and yes.. Joey still races and next season he's taking those 2 wins back from Kyle ;)
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Exactly.. but I know all about what happened with Joey... you think I care why Kyle didn't make the chase in 2012 though? Nope... everyone is biased and pays more attention to the people who win more.. and their driver.. but if their driver isn't the one winning a lot, they're the only ones watching them... and yes.. Joey still races and next season he's taking those 2 wins back from Kyle ;)
Click to expand...

Be careful Sliced---------------- holding your breath for long periods of time can be hazardous :XXROFL:
 
SlicedBread22 said:
There's the difference though. He's winning now. He was always a quiet good finisher, he reminded me of Biffle for a while. Always getting top 5's and 10's.. and a couple wins a season. This year he won the most races in spite of the switch to a new team and made headlines. Thats why "he's better now".. he never got better. Just found better people to work with and won more.
Click to expand...

If that makes ya feel better, go with it. Pretty fickle to me. Kenseth has a long history of top ten final season finishes or better, many years of more top fives than this year and also more top ten finishes.
 
StandOnIt said:
If that makes ya feel better, go with it. Pretty fickle to me. Kenseth has a long history of top ten final season finishes or better, many years of more top fives than this year and also more top ten finishes.
Click to expand...
Doesn't make a difference to me. Im just saying that's why everyone thinks he's so much better now.. because he's winning more and competed for a championship with a new team.
 
Kyle18fan said:
The fact that Kenseth won 7 races this year tells me that some of the other teams may need to step it up a bit. Kenseth may be a decent driver but he isnt a Kyle Busch by any means IMO

Crew chiefs really do matter and being stuck with a mediocre one for several years must really suck :(
How many more years is Kyle going to have his :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
" Kenseth may be a decent driver" I would say he is one of the top ten in the sport. Top 5 in most peoples opinion
 
There is no real secret. The crew chief decides how much adjustment the car needs and has the crew make changes. The tough part is trying to interpret what the driver is telling him. If the driver can't describe what he wants accurately, the CC can only make a guess. So a good team has a driver that can accurately describe what he wants, a CC that can make those adjustments with precision according to how the track is changing, and a crew that makes those adjustments quickly without mistakes. Drivers, CC's, and crews can only do so much by themselves, but clear communication between everyone on the team is a must.
 
You have to have everything right to win.
A great driver, CC, team, equipment, chassis motors etc. You dont have to be the absolute best in any given category, and it would be impossible to have the best of everything but you better be close in all areas.

There are also intangibles, and chemistry. Some great drivers wouldn't win as much In the 48 with Chad, and Jimmie would do worse with some other great teams. All the people and pieces have to match.

Thats what makes debates about best drivers impossible to resolve, every situation has enough difference to make measurements impossible.
 
They should have a random drawing each week and allow teams to select their drivers from a pool. JK, but it would be fun if they did that once just to see what happens.
 
BobbyFord said:
How do you explain Kenseth's performance this year and lack of performance last year?
Click to expand...

I don't consider 13 top 5's, 19 top 10's and 3 wins a lack performance so there's nothing to explain - at least for my part :)

As for his increased performance in 2013, listening to what he has to say when he gets out of the #20 tells me the reason why.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#17D500winner said:
I don't consider 13 top 5's, 19 top 10's and 3 wins a lack performance so there's nothing to explain - at least for my part :)

As for his increased performance in 2013, listening to what he has to say when he gets out of the #20 tells me the reason why.
Click to expand...
So...it has nothing to do with the team and chemistry?
 
ted@economy said:
I think there are exceptions to every rule Bobby , could it happen again? Don't think so . In the case of Kevin and Kurt , they aren't even going to established teams .
Click to expand...

Off topic, but what does it take to be a "established team"?
 
Smoke14 said:
Off topic, but what does it take to be a "established team"?
Click to expand...
My best answer would be a crew chief that demands performance and knows how to get the best out of his car and driver each week. Also he would be half psychologist to relate to team members( actually no different than a coach) when he does that he gets better performance and results each week. Lastly he has a system for the way they do things, a system each one understands and buys into. That my friends is the formula for success as I see it.( yes I am in the coaching field myself). :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom