"New" restarts vs. "Old" restarts

dpkimmel2001 said:
So, is it just the second place guy or do we let everyone choose which lane they want by the running order? What running position does that practice stop at? Just the second place guy? Top 10? 20? Maybe we could do a fan vote after each caution? That, sounds messed up. We'd be watching these teams take extra caution laps while the field all decide where they'd like to start.

Okay, maybe the fan vote is a bit much? Boy, I sure hope Brian or one of his cronies aren't reading this.
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No it should not be just the 2nd place car, as ztevans noted early on in the thread, local tracks have already figured this out. If I only referenced the 2nd place car earlier on I just was trying to keep a post simple, or just being inarticulate.

A fan vote? What seems silly to me is the current haphazard process that is like Russian roulette. The first car out of the pits only gets to control their destiny. Everyone else is left to a spin the will fate depending on the pit exit being odd or even. And the idea of slowing down to come out of the pits in the right order is loaded with problems. In many cases a cluster of cars is approaching the exit line, we don't need cars almost stopping to get staged correctly.

Another thing about the fan vote is that it is currently more aligned with the current B/S. Both are not a part of rewarding who earns it on the track. You come out of pits and get staged in the wrong line and just watch the other line get an automatic advantage. With today's Aero dependency and push problems the best time for passing is immediately following a caution. It could be a green white checker as well, or with just a handful of laps to go, and all of a sudden we are left to odd and even pit exist positions being a significant part of the outcome.

A car was strong but late in the race he came out of pits in the wrong sequence and got indexed into the wrong line. So other cars that were slower and also had slower pit stops in the better lane drove by him and finished better, that's the BS imo.

If they can't fix that I would rather go back to single file. I am not not anti double file, but I didnt need the fluffing to begin with and I have never wanted them to skew the results even if I disliked who was winning. I would rather see the best car win by a 'boring' margin than having some thrill seeking appeasements injected into the race.
We should be in the buisness of having the results represent who is best. Manufactured artificial breaks should not be part of the process.
 
Greg said:
That is messed up when a driver wants to have a slower pit stop.
Just let him give up the undesirable lane, and start one row back in the lane he prefers. I don't get the idea that a car that is one position back is allowed to have a more desirable restarting position. The leader should have the best starting position, 2nd place should have the 2nd best position etc. If the second place car believes he is better served to start in p3 directly behind the leader he should have that right imo without any pit road shenanigans.
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True. 1st gets lane choice over 2nd, 2nd chooses before 3rd, 3rd chooses before 4th, et. You're describing lane choice for the entire field, and I agree. Small tracks do it every week and it works great.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I just have to wonder where the heck has everyone been that they never noticed that there was an advantage in one lane or another on restarts? We've been doing this for 5 years now and it's now some sort of issue that we have to change back?

Plain and simple, single file restarts sucked. We saw year after year in the All Star race the double file restarts and liked them. Not all but most fans wanted to see them throughout the year and NASCAR did just that. We see some great racing because of it. Some tracks more than others there is a more preferred line. That's not transparent to the teams/drivers.

Some driver or drivers whine about it and all of the sudden it becomes the latest emergency in the sport. Something that has to be changed. Maybe the drivers need to quit whining about it and do something about it. Be the leader of the race when the caution comes out. Then they'll have there choice.
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My thoughts were in place prior to the Atlanta race, I have not even got to give that race my full attention yet. Worked 12 hours every day Saturday thru Tuesday and I am still catching up on the DVR.

Five years? A good point. Greg does the best he can to explain the way racing should be to the masses, and explain some of the errors in the Brians Cup Series when he sees them. But Greg can't do everything.
 
FenderBumper said:
True. 1st gets lane choice over 2nd, 2nd chooses before 3rd, 3rd chooses before 4th, et. You're describing lane choice for the entire field, and I agree. Small tracks do it every week and it works great.
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With 43 cars? How's that coordinated so that NASCAR can relay to the entire field where everyone would like to start after each caution comes out?

I think this whole subject is ridiculous. I guess I'll just be satisfied to be in the minority on that.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
With 43 cars? How's that coordinated so that NASCAR can relay to the entire field where everyone would like to start after each caution comes out?

I think this whole subject is ridiculous. I guess I'll just be satisfied to be in the minority on that.
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It's highly technical, but I'll try to explain. They put a cone in the middle of the track. As cars come around single file, they either go low or high. Once they all pass the cone, nascar has it's new starting order.

I for one don't like seeing races decided by lane roulette, but that's just me. I guess some like it, but I prefer watching the fast cars have a chance to race for the win.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
With 43 cars? How's that coordinated so that NASCAR can relay to the entire field where everyone would like to start after each caution comes out?

I think this whole subject is ridiculous. I guess I'll just be satisfied to be in the minority on that.
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Yep. It sounds complicated, but once you see it once it's actually less complex than what NASCAR currently has and would add an element of strategy. I'm okay with what they have, but if they're going to change, the answer is obviously this IMO.

EDIT: quoted the wrong post on my phone. Wanted to quote the post directly above mine. Speaking of complicated things....
 
They should invert the top ten cars on all restarts and think about going triple file on certain tracks just to add more action on restarts after waiting 30 minutes for the caution because Jiff's hair hurt.
 
Greg said:
My thoughts were in place prior to the Atlanta race, I have not even got to give that race my full attention yet. Worked 12 hours every day Saturday thru Tuesday and I am still catching up on the DVR.
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Yep, I remember Gordon fooling around on pit road at Kansas earlier in the year to drop back a spot and get into the preferred line on the restart.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Yep. This is just the flavor of the moment.
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I felt like it was a pretty unique point of view and an opinion/conversation I've personally never seen on this forum or really anywhere..

dpkimmel2001 said:
With 43 cars? How's that coordinated so that NASCAR can relay to the entire field where everyone would like to start after each caution comes out?

I think this whole subject is ridiculous. I guess I'll just be satisfied to be in the minority on that.
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What subject? The only people talking about inverting every row and making a mockery of the whole thing are the people that think it's totally asinine for NASCAR to do things they way they had done them for 50+ years...

When double-file restarts debuted, I was very excited about it. I enjoyed them for a long time. But as time has gone on, it seems like rather than excitement, it produces more of a ****show and common frustration than anything else. I'm probably biased because my favorite driver sucks going through the gears on most occasions.. Whatever tho. JMO.
 
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once this wonderful new chase format begins ....
......i predict all this conflict on dbl file restarts will soon disappear !
 
hawg dawg said:
once this wonderful new chase format begins ....
......i predict all this conflict on dbl file restarts will soon disappear !
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True that. I will rage if I watch a Championship season go to crap in race one or two..
 
DUN24 said:
So I've kind of been thinking about this for awhile.. but after watching the 24 passing cars in the top 10 over and over again, yet trapped two laps down waiting for an off sequence caution that happen, I've got some sh!t to say!!!


I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm not a fan of double file restarts, for a couple of reasons.....


A) a lot of tracks have a massively preferred line. Killing restart chances for either even or oddly positioned drivers... Creating a bullsh*t Brian France lottery.

C)"racing" your lap back is a whole lot more respectable than just not pitting and getting to drive around the pace car...

C) Watching leaders deal with lap cars while trying to take advantage of fresh tires is exciting. And when a fast car gets trapped he can make big moves on restarts...

I can go on but you get the point.

Thoughts?
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The "old" restarts were double file too. Except cars one lap down or more started on the inside (at most tracks).
Not sure why you're against double file restarts, but then say you like to watch leaders deal with lap cars. Those leaders have to get beside the lapped cars before they can pass them.
Dealing with traffic is part of racing, including on restarts.
Restart position is not a Brian France lottery. You line up in the position that you created via passing on the track or in the pits. Mr. France has nothing to do with it.
I agree that getting your lap back via passing the leader is more respectable than taking a "wave around" or getting a "lucky dog". But they had to quit racing back to the line on cautions because it was too dangerous, and they needed to create more opportunities for teams to recover from earlier problems. I've learned to live with the "wave around" and "lucky dog", but I'd prefer a revision to the rule that says you can only get one of each during a race.
 
gone said:
The "old" restarts were double file too. Except cars one lap down or more started on the inside (at most tracks).
Not sure why you're against double file restarts, but then say you like to watch leaders deal with lap cars. Those leaders have to get beside the lapped cars before they can pass them.
Dealing with traffic is part of racing, including on restarts.
Restart position is not a Brian France lottery. You line up in the position that you created via passing on the track or in the pits. Mr. France has nothing to do with it.
I agree that getting your lap back via passing the leader is more respectable than taking a "wave around" or getting a "lucky dog". But they had to quit racing back to the line on cautions because it was too dangerous, and they needed to create more opportunities for teams to recover from earlier problems. I've learned to live with the "wave around" and "lucky dog", but I'd prefer a revision to the rule that says you can only get one of each during a race.
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What mattered was that everyone on the same lap started in the same line.

I just found this but last year Keselowski also said double-file restarts are "bogus": http://bradracing.com/races/gobowlingcom-400/double-file-restarts-whats-big-deal
 
Yeah everybody on the same lap started in the same line, but the OP complained about fast cars getting trapped behind lapped cars on restarts... the old style restarts almost guaranteed that.
 
FLRacingFan said:
What mattered was that everyone on the same lap started in the same line.

I just found this but last year Keselowski also said double-file restarts are "bogus": http://bradracing.com/races/gobowlingcom-400/double-file-restarts-whats-big-deal
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Huh? I think Brad chose the worst possible example to make his point. Kasey is leading and rolling to a win when the yellow comes out. Jeff restarts 2nd, without lane choice, and takes the lead. :confused: Next yellow comes out, Jeff has lane choice, but Kasey takes the lead. :confused: Kasey, the guy who had an 8 second lead before all this happens, wins the race. :confused:

What's the problem, Bradster?
 
How about all of the times during the single file restart era where the 2nd place guy would steal the lead because the leader was hung up with a lapped car that was holding him up on the restart? Or how if you were running, say, 10th at the time of caution, you were functionally knocked back to 20th on a restart?
 
gone said:
Yeah everybody on the same lap started in the same line, but the OP complained about fast cars getting trapped behind lapped cars on restarts... the old style restarts almost guaranteed that.
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No, I was complaining about the advantage one row got over the other when lead lap cars start side by side every restart... I like the idea of cars one lap down on the inside. It allows faster cars to contend for their laps back and helps even the playing field for lead lap cars(nose to tail, on the outside)

My problem isn't "dealing with traffic" I'm good with that.

My problem is the advantage either the high line or low line gets on restarts half the time.
 
Re: Choice cone

What happens if EVERYONE chooses one line and then some guy running in 20th says "what the hell?" and takes the less favored line in hopes of just falling in line somewhere and making up a ton of ground?
 
I didn't care for the lucky dog rule but I understand the homage to the gentleman's agreement to let drivers by during a caution. Back then there was a greater disparity of equipment and giving a driver a lap back probably wasn't going to affect the race. I'm fine with the lucky dog rule now because we have all have had our favorite drivers benefit from the rule.

The worst example of the lucky dog was when Jeff Gordon got 5 laps back during a race from 5 cautions (he was the only car a lap down each time) - I think he either won the race or had a good finish.

I like Gone's suggestion that you get one lucky dog per race. I like the wave around rule.
 
FenderBumper said:
Huh? I think Brad chose the worst possible example to make his point. Kasey is leading and rolling to a win when the yellow comes out. Jeff restarts 2nd, without lane choice, and takes the lead. :confused: Next yellow comes out, Jeff has lane choice, but Kasey takes the lead. :confused: Kasey, the guy who had an 8 second lead before all this happens, wins the race. :confused:

What's the problem, Bradster?
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I didn't get that either, but one of the other tweets is dated after the Dover race Jimmie get penalized during. Not sure about the other one.

He said this after Blaney beat Busch at Bristol a couple of weeks back too:

Brad Keselowski ‏@keselowski Aug 22
Kyle's right, double file restarts are unfair to leader, but that's the rule... @Kcape1: what are your thoughts on the last restart?
 
The Nature Boy said:
Re: Choice cone

What happens if EVERYONE chooses one line and then some guy running in 20th says "what the hell?" and takes the less favored line in hopes of just falling in line somewhere and making up a ton of ground?
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He starts on the outside of row one. I think you answered your own question. :whoopee:

That's part of the strategy that makes it a fun rule, though. At a place like Atlanta this week (or most of the short tracks that use this rule), being on the inside of row two is much better than the outside of row one. But what is the tradeoff between, say, inside row four and outside row one? And since it's all happening on the fly as you approach the cone, you have to make the decision based on what cars are doing right in front of you.

TV will probably never go for it, though. What do you mean we have to come back from commercial a lap early?
 
ztevans said:
He starts on the outside of row one. I think you answered your own question. :whoopee:

That's part of the strategy that makes it a fun rule, though. At a place like Atlanta this week (or most of the short tracks that use this rule), being on the inside of row two is much better than the outside of row one. But what is the tradeoff between, say, inside row four and outside row one? And since it's all happening on the fly as you approach the cone, you have to make the decision based on what cars are doing right in front of you.

TV will probably never go for it, though. What do you mean we have to come back from commercial a lap early?
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I can SEE where it might be exciting but I'm pretty sure if it were to happen, it would be bashed as a Brian France gimmick.

I'm not a fan though of the possibility that some guy running 25th can luck into a top 10 because he took a risky lane choice and got lucky when a caution came out before he got shuffled back.
 
FLRacingFan said:
I didn't get that either, but one of the other tweets is dated after the Dover race Jimmie get penalized during. Not sure about the other one.

He said this after Blaney beat Busch at Bristol a couple of weeks back too:

Brad Keselowski ‏@keselowski Aug 22
Kyle's right, double file restarts are unfair to leader, but that's the rule... @Kcape1: what are your thoughts on the last restart?
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At least Brad is consistent, even if his example sucks.
 
Restarts are one of Nascar's least type of problems.. lets fix the cars downforce and tires problem first.
Best answer yet!!! Been saying it all year!!!!
 
The Nature Boy said:
I can SEE where it might be exciting but I'm pretty sure if it were to happen, it would be bashed as a Brian France gimmick.

I'm not a fan though of the possibility that some guy running 25th can luck into a top 10 because he took a risky lane choice and got lucky when a caution came out before he got shuffled back.
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Everything is bashed as a Brian France gimmick, even though very few of his gimmicks are his original work. Just shows that most NASCAR fans don't watch other forms of motorsports to know about a knockout postseason (NHRA), knockout qualifying (F1), or cone restarts (probably a short track within shouting distance of your house).
 
I much prefer current double-file restarts, as all of the good cars are bunched up closer together than they would be single-file.
 
Zerkfitting said:
I didn't care for the lucky dog rule but I understand the homage to the gentleman's agreement to let drivers by during a caution. Back then there was a greater disparity of equipment and giving a driver a lap back probably wasn't going to affect the race. I'm fine with the lucky dog rule now because we have all have had our favorite drivers benefit from the rule.

The worst example of the lucky dog was when Jeff Gordon got 5 laps back during a race from 5 cautions (he was the only car a lap down each time) - I think he either won the race or had a good finish.

I like Gone's suggestion that you get one lucky dog per race. I like the wave around rule.
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If his car was that strong he would've gotten his laps back under the old system too by passing the leaders.
 
Lazyking said:
Restarts are one of Nascar's least type of problems.. lets fix the cars downforce and tires problem first.
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I agree it is not the biggest problem but that doesn't mean there is no problem.
Especially when inflated by the use of recreational or planned debris cautions.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Re: Choice cone

What happens if EVERYONE chooses one line and then some guy running in 20th says "what the hell?" and takes the less favored line in hopes of just falling in line somewhere and making up a ton of ground?
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Probably something like what happened to us when we did this during a Tuesday Night Thunder Legends car race at Charlotte a few years ago.
At Charlotte during the Tuesday Night Thunder Series the cars run on a track that is part of the front stretch, part of pit road, and two connecting turns. It's flat so most drivers prefer the inside line.
They started using a "Choose" system for race restarts. This night had light rain on and off, and the track was slick.
As usual we were running near the back of mid-pack, about 14th or 15th. We had a late caution that would create a green-white-checker finish.
Everybody in front of us stayed inside. Our driver always tried the outside, but was surprised to end up on the outside front row.
He was able to hold on to finish fourth, which was our best ever.
A bunch of teams that usually beat us were upset. Even the TV announcers were surprised (saying "who is this guy?"). But everything was done per the normal rules - you snooze you lose.
A couple of those teams stayed mad at us for the rest of the season. But most of them congratulated us.

So after that long answer, in summary you are right: a back marker can get a great gift finish. It forces some drivers to take a chance or accept a lower finish. By the way, from then on more drivers took a chance on the outside too.
 
gone said:
Probably something like what happened to us when we did this during a Tuesday Night Thunder Legends car race at Charlotte a few years ago.
At Charlotte during the Tuesday Night Thunder Series the cars run on a track that is part of the front stretch, part of pit road, and two connecting turns. It's flat so most drivers prefer the inside line.
They started using a "Choose" system for race restarts. This night had light rain on and off, and the track was slick.
As usual we were running near the back of mid-pack, about 14th or 15th. We had a late caution that would create a green-white-checker finish.
Everybody in front of us stayed inside. Our driver always tried the outside, but was surprised to end up on the outside front row.
He was able to hold on to finish fourth, which was our best ever.
A bunch of teams that usually beat us were upset. Even the TV announcers were surprised (saying "who is this guy?"). But everything was done per the normal rules - you snooze you lose.
A couple of those teams stayed mad at us for the rest of the season. But most of them congratulated us.

So after that long answer, in summary you are right: a back marker can get a great gift finish. It forces some drivers to take a chance or accept a lower finish. By the way, from then on more drivers took a chance on the outside too.
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I don't even care how your post applies to whatever the original topic is, I liked it because it's a cool story. Thanks for sharing!
 
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