Posts being edited/deleted

[2 Sweet]

Since it's unclear who is doing the majority of the ghost moderating lately, I have no choice but to bring this into the open forum.

Today, I received a notification that my post was deleted, along with a reason. First of all, I'm glad to see we are finally getting an actual notification, but the explanation I received was hogwash.....

"The only things being deleted or edited are direct attacks on members, or unacceptable language."

Are you kidding me? How many harmless posts have been needlessly edited by a mod (without notation, I might add) or removed/deleted over the last several weeks? Why can't the moderators here just admit they are taking things wayyyyyyy too far lately? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I'm simply voicing my displeasure for the good of the forum. I know I'm certainly not alone.

We aren't children, and we don't need to be treated as such. Yes, there are times when members might cross a line, and appropriate measures should be taken. But the absurd over-moderation needs to be kept in check before it turns this place into a ghost town.

 

[Magnethead]

Just to be clear, everybody on this end of the board is on the same page now. Direct Attacks and Language have always been forbidden, but wasn't always enforced. The same with off topic discussions that start to take over a thread or create an unstable atmosphere.

We're not trying to make this place a ghost town. The members and their attitude contribute to that just as much as our moderation does. This isn't a game of Good Cop/Bad Cop. Ya'll slip up, we're gonna come in like a rhumba and clean that trash up.

A fellow teacher said it best while I was on a field trip this week. "Normally I'm the nice teacher that lets you ride the side of the escalator while the other teachers look on in horror. Today, i'm your worst nightmare and I'm not afraid to sit ya'lls butts on the bus for the rest of the day."

That pretty well describes this transition of power as first Dennis stepped away, then TRL, and suddenly I'm now the top of the pyramid. The only people that are afraid of enforcement of rules, are the ones that break the rules. The ones that are all hunky-dory can care less about the enforcement because it doesn't affect them in the first place.

Food for thought.

 

[DUN24]

It's been tough to have a discussion about the new intermediate cup package without modifications to posts. Doesn't matter though, the opposite opinion of my own is frankly retarded.


Totally kidding folks, that subject is the only one I've seen 'over'moderation on.

 

[gnomesayin]

The only people that are afraid of enforcement of rules, are the ones that break the rules. The ones that are all hunky-dory can care less about the enforcement because it doesn't affect them in the first place.

That's a tired deflection used by people in power all the time to smear anyone who questions them. I've seen several of the best and most respectful posters on the forum express frustration and confusion over the bizarre editing practices of late.

 

[2 Sweet]

Just to be clear, everybody on this end of the board is on the same page now. Direct Attacks and Language have always been forbidden, but wasn't always enforced. The same with off topic discussions that start to take over a thread or create an unstable atmosphere.

We're not trying to make this place a ghost town. The members and their attitude contribute to that just as much as our moderation does. This isn't a game of Good Cop/Bad Cop. Ya'll slip up, we're gonna come in like a rhumba and clean that trash up.

A fellow teacher said it best while I was on a field trip this week. "Normally I'm the nice teacher that lets you ride the side of the escalator while the other teachers look on in horror. Today, i'm your worst nightmare and I'm not afraid to sit ya'lls butts on the bus for the rest of the day."

That pretty well describes this transition of power as first Dennis stepped away, then TRL, and suddenly I'm now the top of the pyramid. The only people that are afraid of enforcement of rules, are the ones that break the rules. The ones that are all hunky-dory can care less about the enforcement because it doesn't affect them in the first place.

Food for thought.

I'm not afraid of the "enforcement of rules" one iota. So please tell me, since you're the head honcho of the "powers that be"....who exactly is slipping up? What rules are being broken to justify the editing or deleting of comments so frequently? If someone compares the popularity of tennis to the popularity of NASCAR in a relevant thread, why is it deleted? If a member makes an ignorant statement such as "plate racing requires no skill" and someone tells them their statement is ignorant, why is the moderator changing "ignorant" to "uninformed"? Is "ignorant" such a horrifying trigger word that it's bound to ignite some sort of wild argument? "Ignorant" is not an attack. Do you really think we are so thin skinned that one would interpret this as such? Get real.

I haven't been active much over the past week or so, but I've seen several harmless posts from long time respected members such as @aunty dive @BobbyFord @Revman being deleted for NO REASON, and that's just off the top of my head. And I caught those just in my brief moments lurking over a few of the active topics, so I'm sure there were several more comments across the forum from other members that I didn't notice. What is the point?

The bottom line is that the majority of the edits and deletions lately are just plain absurd. You moderators are overstepping your bounds MUCH more than necessary, and for what reason? Do you think the extra time and effort required to police the forum in such a strict manner is a good thing? Do you think the majority of the members enjoy their comments being edited or deleted just because YOU assume that someone might, MIGHT get their panties in a wad for no reason and take offense? This over-moderation is ridiculous, plain and simple. If you continue to treat us like children and abuse your power, many of us will leave, rest assured. None of us want that to happen.

"Food for thought."

 

[Magnethead]

I have instructed the staff to start leaving deleted posts such that I can go back and review them (right now that's a big problem, I can't cross-check). TRL used to do this, but she was the only one that did so I believe (granted, modding this forum was an 8 hr/day job for her). I do look at posts that are reported, and review the edit history to make sure things aren't completely oblique. I'm yet to see anything out of line on that front.

Again, what's been deleted I couldn't cross-check, but that's being addressed. I have had to edit several posts myself.

I don't want to say that I am caving to the bratty millennials, because I already deal with these brats and their parents/kids at work (pick a sub-generation). But when I see a post reported and it's addressing a direct attack, I'm not fond of that. I'm not fond of implied attacks, either. Part of it is also that I spend just as much time working with the legal team at work as I do in a classroom. Seeing legal this and legal that kind of gets your attention, especially in today's F'd up world.

I was actually shocked when I logged on tonight to zero reported posts since midnight.

TRL always used the adage "If you won't say it to your grandmother, don't say it on the forum". Just because your grandmother is Kitty Forman doesn't give you a pass on that.

Calling each other fools and idiots is at the shallow end of the list of infractions. There have been a few, let's say, ..obnoxious... users that I have given a non-too-kind "words of encouragement" treatment to.

 

[StandOnIt]

I haven't seen much of a problem this week IMO. This below is a good practice if it is enforced, because it will eliminate the off topic steering of threads into a cluster which is recognized in many public forums as trolling.
Direct Attacks and Language have always been forbidden, but wasn't always enforced. The same with off topic discussions that start to take over a thread or create an unstable atmosphere.

 

[2 Sweet]

I have instructed the staff to start leaving deleted posts such that I can go back and review them (right now that's a big problem, I can't cross-check). TRL used to do this, but she was the only one that did so I believe (granted, modding this forum was an 8 hr/day job for her). I do look at posts that are reported, and review the edit history to make sure things aren't completely oblique. I'm yet to see anything out of line on that front.

Again, what's been deleted I couldn't cross-check, but that's being addressed. I have had to edit several posts myself.

I don't want to say that I am caving to the bratty millennials, because I already deal with these brats and their parents/kids at work (pick a sub-generation). But when I see a post reported and it's addressing a direct attack, I'm not fond of that. I'm not fond of implied attacks, either. Part of it is also that I spend just as much time working with the legal team at work as I do in a classroom. Seeing legal this and legal that kind of gets your attention, especially in today's F'd up world.

I was actually shocked when I logged on tonight to zero reported posts since midnight.

TRL always used the adage "If you won't say it to your grandmother, don't say it on the forum". Just because your grandmother is Kitty Forman doesn't give you a pass on that.

Calling each other fools and idiots is at the shallow end of the list of infractions. There have been a few, let's say, ..obnoxious... users that I have given a non-too-kind "words of encouragement" treatment to.

I would like to add, I've been a moderator on multiple forums over the years, and an admin. I know it's not always easy. So why are are the mods here making it so hard on themselves?

You know that saying, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"....well, in my opinion, F that. I'm sure members like mopardh9 were the type that likes to report posts all the time or cry to the moderation via PM about this and that, and you folks were right to ban him. Why cater to the crybabies?

I think there are way too many posts being edited and deleted for no good reason lately. That's all. Just please, PLEASE try to lighten up. That's all that I ask. I think we would all be better off as a result.

 

[2 Sweet]

One last thing I want to touch on........

"If you won't say it to your grandmother, don't say it on the forum"

Sorry, but that's laughable. First, my grandmother wouldn't discuss 90% of the stuff that's said on this forum. Second, we can all talk to each other, rib each other, criticize each other, and argue with each other in a sensible manner without the forum exploding into chaos. Again, no need to handle us with kid gloves. Every conversation doesn't need to revolve around a giant tea party with all the members playing pattycakes and singing Baa Baa Black Sheep.

 

[Magnethead]

I would like to add, I've been a moderator on multiple forums over the years, and an admin. I know it's not always easy. So why are are the mods here making it so hard on themselves?

You know that saying, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"....well, in my opinion, F that. I'm sure members like mopardh9 were the type that likes to report posts all the time or cry to the moderation via PM about this and that, and you folks were right to ban him. Why cater to the crybabies?

I think there are way too many posts being edited and deleted for no good reason lately. That's all. Just please, PLEASE try to lighten up. That's all that I ask. I think we would all be better off as a result.

Once we get to a system where I can see what has been deleted, I'll have a better idea of where the forum stands. Right now being unable to cross-check, I'm taking words that correct actions were taken.

I'm only on here an hour or 2 a day at most. First thing I look at is the reported posts for the day, then PM's and notifications. That's still substantially longer than the owner (0 hours per week unless it's completely offline) since he has alot of other things going on. We were spoiled when TRL would spend 8-12 hours a day on here, and I was more of a techy/"go fix this" role. Now that's i'm basically running the house, i'm trying to learn...how to run the house with only 2 people helping clean it up, and they don't have much time either.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying, the captain is incapacitated and the first officer is currently flying the plane somewhat unsupervised and I'm doing what I can to fix that. It's not easy.

 

[2 Sweet]

Once we get to a system where I can see what has been deleted, I'll have a better idea of where the forum stands. Right now being unable to cross-check, I'm taking words that correct actions were taken.

I'm only on here an hour or 2 a day at most. First thing I look at is the reported posts for the day, then PM's and notifications. That's still substantially longer than the owner (0 hours per week unless it's completely offline) since he has alot of other things going on. We were spoiled when TRL would spend 8-12 hours a day on here, and I was more of a techy/"go fix this" role. Now that's i'm basically running the house, i'm trying to learn...how to run the house with only 2 people helping clean it up, and they don't have much time either.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying, the captain is incapacitated and the first officer is currently flying the plane somewhat unsupervised and I'm doing what I can to fix that. It's not easy.

Fair enough. I can live with that. Thanks for the response, I appreciate the dialogue.

 

[jws926]

Once we get to a system where I can see what has been deleted, I'll have a better idea of where the forum stands. Right now being unable to cross-check, I'm taking words that correct actions were taken.

I'm only on here an hour or 2 a day at most. First thing I look at is the reported posts for the day, then PM's and notifications. That's still substantially longer than the owner (0 hours per week unless it's completely offline) since he has alot of other things going on. We were spoiled when TRL would spend 8-12 hours a day on here, and I was more of a techy/"go fix this" role. Now that's i'm basically running the house, i'm trying to learn...how to run the house with only 2 people helping clean it up, and they don't have much time either.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying, the captain is incapacitated and the first officer is currently flying the plane somewhat unsupervised and I'm doing what I can to fix that. It's not easy.

It sounds like you need help, this forum is too busy for one person that isnt able to spend more than few hours on to keep the peace , just my 1.5 cents.

Over moderation will kill a forum.

 

[2 Sweet]

It sounds like you need help, this forum is too busy for one person that isnt able to spend more than few hours on to keep the peace , just my 1.5 cents.

Over moderation will kill a forum.

Agreed.

For the record, I have volunteered to be a moderator on this forum, thru PM's to the upper authority and also in the public forum. I really couldn't care less if my services are wanted or not, but I am always willing to help if called upon.

 

[jws926]

Agreed.

For the record, I have volunteered to be a moderator on this forum, thru PM's to the upper authority and also in the public forum. I really couldn't care less if my services are wanted or not, but I am always willing to help if called upon.

Ive openly volunteered too, we are just not in the right circle

 

[Magnethead]

I have been made aware of a few suggestions by PM. Until I know where we stand, I'm not in a good spot to say "Hey strangers, let's try to unify polar opposite opinions on how to mod a forum". It's on my to-do list. Right now we're rolling with 2 of the longest-tenure users. TRL still lurks and gives me feedback on what she sees, but she doesn't have any power since resigning as 'forum mom'.

I know @BobbyFord isn't too fond either here lately. We're trying to work things out. The argument has been made previously that contributors that help pay to keep the lights turned on here, and I agree with that.

It's just a matter of weighing tenure vs contribution and not making a wild swing. We've basically gone from great-moderation to no-moderation to over-moderation. The last thing I want to do is soften moderation up, but then have too many moderators.

Something most don't know is also that right now, new user sign-up is frozen. The house is barely staying clean as it is, nobody has time to vet 5-10 new member applications a day (most of which are foreign spam).

It's not perfect. But we're trying to get to a good place.

 

[Johali]

I don't see a problem with the moderation. I mess up and the post disappears or gets edited. I just smile and move on. Unlike some others, I know and acknowledge that I am responsible for my own actions. I know that if I follow the rules then I'll enjoy the forum more. I like it just fine the way it is and so do most of the members here. Only a few want things changed to suit themselves. The other forums that some on here speak of (I was a member of some of them and they went to hell when a few started bitching about not getting their way with things) are no longer around because the owners just got tired of dealing with a handful of troublemakers. Some on here were mods at the defunct forums so what does that tell you? It tells me that their way wasn't working. There's a reason for that. It's that the powers that be just got tired of a few bitchers and moaners complaining about everything that was wrong with the board. Trying to keep a clean family friendly place to talk racing with friends isn't easy. Saying you have to be thick skinned to be on a board is ridiculous. We have kids come on here. I don't want to see this one disappear like so many others. The door swings both way's, it's got an entrance and an exit that anyone who isn't happy is welcome to use. A few using the open forum to try and rally a revolt against people that work hard to try and keep this place clean is pathetic. This is my opinion.

 

[2 Sweet]

Saying you have to be thick skinned to be on a board is ridiculous. We have kids come on here. I don't want to see this one disappear like so many others. The door swings both way's, it's got an entrance and an exit that anyone who isn't happy is welcome to use. A few using the open forum to try and rally a revolt against people that work hard to try and keep this place clean is pathetic. This is my opinion.

That's not at all what I'm trying to do.

I'm not suggesting we all have the free reign to sling **** at one another. Gnomesayin's post sums it up pretty well.....

I've seen several of the best and most respectful posters on the forum express frustration and confusion over the bizarre editing practices of late.

 

[Revman]

I will keep it simple...1) This thread should have been out there a long time ago. Dialogue is good. 2) I think that posters should moderate themselves. Step out of line. Handle it with a DM. DM refused....Then DM to Mod. I believe very strongly that members should work stuff out on their own. I believe very strongly that most of the time when things get a bit out of hand, it is because the written world can easily be misperceived. Part of the fun of this is jabbing back and forth. From the outside, this can look like a violation of Terms of Use, but it couldn't be further from that. @Magnethead mentioned the F'ed up world. I do not agree. The vast majority of people on this planet are really awesome. This board represents this very well. Chill. Everything will be okay. Toyota will sweep the weekend, Kyle Busch will win his 200th next weekend, Toyota will win the Manufacturers Championship, and Kyle Busch will be your 2019 Champion....and the world will be a better place because of it all!!!! "Everything is Great!"

 

[Johali]

I will keep it simple...1) This thread should have been out there a long time ago. Dialogue is good. 2) I think that posters should moderate themselves. Step out of line. Handle it with a DM. DM refused....Then DM to Mod. I believe very strongly that members should work stuff out on their own. I believe very strongly that most of the time when things get a bit out of hand, it is because the written world can easily be misperceived. Part of the fun of this is jabbing back and forth. From the outside, this can look like a violation of Terms of Use, but it couldn't be further from that. @Magnethead mentioned the F'ed up world. I do not agree. The vast majority of people on this planet are really awesome. This board represents this very well. Chill. Everything will be okay. Toyota will sweep the weekend, Kyle Busch will win his 200th next weekend, Toyota will win the Manufacturers Championship, and Kyle Busch will be your 2019 Champion....and the world will be a better place because of it all!!!! "Everything is Great!"

And let the inmates run the asylum. Shirley you jest.

 

[Greg]

One last thing I want to touch on........



Sorry, but that's laughable. First, my grandmother wouldn't discuss 90% of the stuff that's said on this forum. Second, we can all talk to each other, rib each other, criticize each other, and argue with each other in a sensible manner without the forum exploding into chaos. Again, no need to handle us with kid gloves. Every conversation doesn't need to revolve around a giant tea party with all the members playing pattycakes and singing Baa Baa Black Sheep.

Every unmoderated forum that l have seen has turned into the Middle East.
It only takes one member determined to create problems to ruin it for everyone else.

 

[2 Sweet]

Every unmoderated forum that l have seen has turned into the Middle East.
It only takes one member determined to create problems to ruin it for everyone else.

Who is asking for an unmoderated forum?

I said this in the original post in case you missed it.....

Yes, there are times when members might cross a line, and appropriate measures should be taken

 

[Johali]

Every unmoderated forum that l have seen has turned into the Middle East.
It only takes one member determined to create problems to ruin it for everyone else.

Yes indeed. There's only a few that are unsatisfied with the moderation. What they don't want to acknowledge is that we all, that is at one time or another, we all feel that one or more of our posts have been unfairly deleted/edited. But we smile and move on because It's only a thang.

 

[2 Sweet]

@Magnethead I just want to say thank you again for the replies you provided in this thread. I know some members think I'm just whining and complaining for the hell of it, and if that's how they feel, then that's fine. Hopefully you didn't see it that way because it's really not my intent to cause any trouble.

You didn't owe me a response, but you chose to give a very honest, transparent, and thorough explanation from your side of things. That is very respectable and I truly appreciate it.


Cheers,
Steve aka "2 Sweet"

 

[Revman]

And let the inmates run the asylum. Shirley you jest.

You already do.

 

[Johali]

You already do.

I'm just another denizen.

5-4-3-2

 

[DanicaFreak]

Yes indeed. There's only a few that are unsatisfied with the moderation. What they don't want to acknowledge is that we all, that is at one time or another, we all feel that one or more of our posts have been unfairly deleted/edited. But we smile and move on because It's only a thang.

Thats just it. come to RF, you accept its moderated. simple as that. you want to go sling mud, visit the podium or another site,

 

[Towmater]

Personally, I like the direction that moderation has taken. Why? It has been evenly applied. Favorites aren’t being played anymore. It is no longer one sided. That’s a giant breath of fresh air.

 

[be9ak7ts16]

First off, 2sweet and jws would be excellent choices for moderators. Second off, people report posts? I've been here since the last ice age and have never reported a post. I have commented on deleteable posts and gotten my posts deleted but I move on because they more than likely deserved deletion. Roll with the punches, were all adults here, act like it. We are not going to always agree, and you may get your nose rubbed in it..

 

[2 Sweet]

Too many posts still being edited or deleted for absolutely no reason. I guess that's just the way it's always gonna be around here. What a shame.

 

[2 Sweet]

So instead of continuing to complain about this, I'll offer some feedback......

- Break the rules, get a warning. Repeat offenders may be subject to the banhammer, even if it's temporary.
- No posts should be deleted unless they are spam, or "not safe for work". Occasionally there are exceptions, but there is rarely a case when a post actually needs to be removed.
- No posts should be edited unless you're fixing something, e.g. the member can't figure out how to embed a link/picture/etc. Removing parts of a post or anything that changes the context is an abuse of power.
- If an off-topic or hostile pissing match ensues, a simple warning ("take it to PM") or a thread ban will put a stop to it. If they continue their **** flinging elsewhere on the open boards, 24-hr ban from the entire forum.

Set a precedent, and folks will fall in line. Editing/deleting posts without reason is absolutely the worst way to moderate a forum.

 

[BobbyFord]

I don’t know…I think the moderation here works. This place has been here for a long time. No ads, no BS. Sure some posts get deleted. Beats the hell out of any other racing forum on the internet.
It ain’t broke.