Regarding the popular suggestion to not count laps between stages

gnomesayin

gnomesayin

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I know how not counting caution laps works in short track racing, where by and large fuel mileage is not a concern and planned pit stops don't exist.

However, if NASCAR didn't "count“ the caution laps between segments, how would they score a car that sits in the pits for five laps while the rest of the field goes around and around? Wouldn't a car running near the back be able to gain a fuel mileage advantage that way? You can't go laps down by not running laps that don't exist. There are myriad other scoring issues that could emerge.

I'm sure the answer is that they would come up with a completely subjective rule requiring all drivers to complete all caution laps that aren't laps, except for when they feel like making an exception, ala the 100% rule.
 
gnomesayin said:
I know how not counting caution laps works in short track racing, where by and large fuel mileage is not a concern and planned pit stops don't exist.

However, if NASCAR didn't "count“ the caution laps between segments, how would they score a car that sits in the pits for five laps while the rest of the field goes around and around? Wouldn't a car running near the back be able to gain a fuel mileage advantage that way? You can't go laps down by not running laps that don't exist. There are myriad other scoring issues that could emerge.

I'm sure the answer is that they would come up with a completely subjective rule requiring all drivers to complete all caution laps that aren't laps, except for when they feel like making an exception, ala the 100% rule.
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In your picture you looked confused..... and after reading your post I feel like Homer Simpson......
 
kymartin6 said:
In your picture you looked confused..... and after reading your post I feel like Homer Simpson......
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The concept I'm discussing isn't that complicated, should become clearer to you when addressed by others.
 
It could just be minimized.
Lap 00 Segment ends.
Pace car staged near turn two, picks up leader. Lucky dog passes pace car.
Lap 01 Pit road opens for all, wave around cars not pitting pass pace car. and line up behind previous last car on lead lap.
No stage winner interview
Lap 02 Green flag if track is more than 1 mile.
Lap 02 if track is less than 1 mile allow one more lap to allow lucky dog to get into postion.
Lap 03 Green flag on short tracks.

Discipline would be needed, but the plan could work if it were a priority.
 
gnomesayin said:
if NASCAR didn't "count“ the caution laps between segments, how would they score a car that sits in the pits for five laps while the rest of the field goes around and around?
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Closing pit road until its time for the field to pit and after would pretty much takes care of that.
 
No pitting between stages. That solves all of those problems. No reason to run all those laps waiting for everybody to pit. Only problem would be the networks not getting their TV timeouts.
 
The networks run commercials when they're damned good 'n ready.
 
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Moto-Gp ........... 104 thousand spectators today ........... no stages, but Ferris wheel was available
 
BobbyFord said:
The problem could be remedied if you remove the stooges, I mean stages.
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I always have and always will agree with that sentiment. Just curious more narrowly how people who advocate for not scoring laps that are being completed would deal with the complications.
 
gnomesayin said:
I always have and always will agree with that sentiment. Just curious more narrowly how people who advocate for not scoring laps that are being completed would deal with the complications.
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This is why I've lost interest in the sport.
IMO, the fan base is being manipulated. I refuse to be manipulated. I love the sport but I refuse to watch the races. I've been reduced to watching the final restart clips. That's all that matters.
 
gnomesayin said:
However, if NASCAR didn't "count“ the caution laps between segments, how would they score a car that sits in the pits for five laps while the rest of the field goes around and around?
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I think you have to count the laps, for the reason @gnomesayin outlined. And the break has to be long enough for TWO commercial breaks. It's like a touchdown in football... A commercial break after the extra point... Then return for the kickoff, which is usually just a touchback... Then another full commercial break before the offense takes the field. It is the price we pay for fewer commercials during green flag running. Yes, I'd like to see ZERO green flag ads, but that ain't gonna happen, so I'll settle for FEWER green flag ad breaks. JMO.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I think you have to count the laps, for the reason @gnomesayin outlined. And the break has to be long enough for TWO commercial breaks. It's like a touchdown in football... A commercial break after the extra point... Then return for the kickoff, which is usually just a touchback... Then another full commercial break before the offense takes the field. It is the price we pay for fewer commercials during green flag running. Yes, I'd like to see ZERO green flag ads, but that ain't gonna happen, so I'll settle for FEWER green flag ad breaks. JMO.
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The analogy is easy enough to understand but still isnt very acceptable imo. Football has offensive and defensive teams that naturally need the change of possession breaks. A natural platoon system with natural shifts. It is a disruption but still the same a change or formattion is naturally occurring with or without the commercial.
An official timeout would be more comparable or applicable to race control initiating a caution that isnt created by an on the track incident.

I would rather see Nascar absolutely minimize the cautions, even if that means more green flags commercials. They can always update the missed events when they return to the air.
The parts I will get to see will be better as a result.
I dont want the resets, or nascar arbitrarily juicing up the races. It is unnecessary intervention imo.

Line up 40 good cars and just let them race. There will always be an intriguing story for anyone invested in enjoying the race, even if the battle for the lead sucks. We are killing a beautiful thing for the genuine lovers, to accommodate folks that just dont get it, or aint into it. That maybe a worthy goal but one that is still elusive and a lost cause imo.
 
They would lose a lap every time the field passes them by. Simple.
 
Marcingak said:
They would lose a lap every time the field passes them by. Simple.
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How's that? Let's say Stage 1 ends on lap 80. The pits open on the next lap, what would be lap 81, but it's still lap 80 because these laps now don't count. Every car on the lead lap pits, but the last five cars on the lead lap proceed to stay in their pit stalls fine tuning their cars while the rest of the field returns and completes five circuits under yellow. The lap before the green flag flies, they return to the track and line up at the end of the longest line. How did they lose any laps? The caution laps between segments now don't count. Did NASCAR subtract a lap from their total each time the leader passed, so they've now only completed 75 laps?

I've talked myself out of this being a big deal. NASCAR would come up with some rule to discourage anyone from doing it, and that would be that. It still presents problems if you have knowledge of how race scoring works.
 
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Greg said:
The analogy is easy enough to understand but still isnt very acceptable imo. Football has offensive and defensive teams that naturally need the change of possession breaks. A natural platoon system with natural shifts. It is a disruption but still the same a change or formattion is naturally occurring with or without the commercial.
An official timeout would be more comparable or applicable to race control initiating a caution that isnt created by an on the track incident.

I would rather see Nascar absolutely minimize the cautions, even if that means more green flags commercials. They can always update the missed events when they return to the air.
The parts I will get to see will be better as a result.
I dont want the resets, or nascar arbitrarily juicing up the races. It is unnecessary intervention imo.

Line up 40 good cars and just let them race. There will always be an intriguing story for anyone invested in enjoying the race, even if the battle for the lead sucks. We are killing a beautiful thing for the genuine lovers, to accommodate folks that just dont get it, or aint into it. That maybe a worthy goal but one that is still elusive and a lost cause imo.
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I would like to agree with you, but we can't even get 20 good cars out of the 39 out there weekly. No matter what you end up with a conveyor belt of cars on the track and unfortunately with so many 1.5 mile ovals, that means awful broadcasts. Nobody wants to watch 3 hours of conveyor belt racing. These cars already have a tough enough time passing each other and if that remains the same, without the stages people are going to check out. We all need time to reset and reboot. I would be curious what people would think about the stages if they didn't toss the flag? For instance, instead of stopping the field and sending them to pit road for adjustments they just say whoever the top 10 is at lap x, y and z receives bonus points and we just keep racing.

It just becomes really mundane in the fact that the top 10 are usually separated by less then .300 of a second and what ends up happening is that these guys are running almost identical times throughout the day and even new vs. old tires eventually even themselves out and so if you are third and you fall back to .300 back of the leader it becomes almost impossible to make up that gap because by the time you get to third the tires are gone and now we are stuck watching cars essentially pace each other. The stages bring a level of recharge to the race.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
I would like to agree with you, but we can't even get 20 good cars out of the 39 out there weekly. No matter what you end up with a conveyor belt of cars on the track and unfortunately with so many 1.5 mile ovals, that means awful broadcasts. Nobody wants to watch 3 hours of conveyor belt racing. These cars already have a tough enough time passing each other and if that remains the same, without the stages people are going to check out. We all need time to reset and reboot. I would be curious what people would think about the stages if they didn't toss the flag? For instance, instead of stopping the field and sending them to pit road for adjustments they just say whoever the top 10 is at lap x, y and z receives bonus points and we just keep racing.

It just becomes really mundane in the fact that the top 10 are usually separated by less then .300 of a second and what ends up happening is that these guys are running almost identical times throughout the day and even new vs. old tires eventually even themselves out and so if you are third and you fall back to .300 back of the leader it becomes almost impossible to make up that gap because by the time you get to third the tires are gone and now we are stuck watching cars essentially pace each other. The stages bring a level of recharge to the race.
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I respectfully disagree with stages being the answer. We need more tire degradation, more HP, less down force, less repetitive 1.5 mile tracks, or more short tracks and road courses.

Stages and more caution resets are awful band aids, they are actual race stoppages to accommodate those that can't take it. I dont fault them for not liking an honest race, it is a subjective thing. I just wish they would go away, and take Brian France with them.
 
Greg said:
I respectfully disagree with stages being the answer. We need more tire degradation, more HP, less down force, less repetitive 1.5 mile tracks, or more short tracks and road courses.

Stages and more caution resets are awful band aids, they are actual race stoppages to accommodate those that can't take it. I dont fault them for not liking an honest race, it is a subjective thing. I just wish they would go away, and take Brian France with them.
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I don't disagree with you, but I think people are wishing for something that will not happen. NASCAR had to be different from what we pay $20 to go see on Saturday night at our local tracks. The 1.5 miles do that because it allows for the cars to open up. None of us are seeing 180-200 mph on our local .5 mile track. More HP is a scary thing considering all that these guys are able to get out of the cars these days. We have guys crushing lap times with 10 to go after 495 miles. The cars have to have some similarity and competitive balance to each other or we would end up with 4 guys killing everyone. I just don't know that there is a way to solve it to make the masses happy. I think it truly boils down to the fact that America in 2017 just doesn't have the attention span for NASCAR and race cars in general. So we have an organization grasping at straws trying to re-create interest in a sport that there just may not be much interest in unless you are a real fan of the sport and then you have a hardcore group of fans that get pissed off at any change that isn't "the way it used to be". Both sides are in a staring contest and it just kind of becomes personal. I don't understand why, but it does. It is a bad mix.
 
gnomesayin said:
How's that? Let's say Stage 1 ends on lap 80. The pits open on the next lap, what would be lap 81, but it's still lap 80 because these laps now don't count. Every car on the lead lap pits, but the last five cars on the lead lap proceed to stay in their pit stalls fine tuning their cars while the rest of the field returns and completes five circuits under yellow. The lap before the green flag flies, they return to the track and line up at the end of the longest line. How did they lose any laps? The caution laps between segments now don't count. Did NASCAR subtract a lap from their total each time the leader passed, so they've now only completed 75 laps?

I've talked myself out of this being a big deal. NASCAR would come up with some rule to discourage anyone from doing it, and that would be that. It still presents problems if you have knowledge of how race scoring works.
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They would still count laps but they wouldn't count towards the race total. Let's say they run 80 laps and then 4 laps under caution between segments. They would be on lap 85 but the screen will display lap 81 when they restart. Yes, they would subtract laps once cars go a lap down. It's very simple. NASCAR has done crazier things.
 
What about just closing pit road all together after stages?No pitting after a stage would make for alot of different strategies during a race.
 
Simple Fan said:
What about just closing pit road all together after stages?No pitting after a stage would make for alot of different strategies during a race.
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I actually like the strategy approach now. Some people decide to go for the stage win and stay out if a caution comes out, because those points matter. Others look at the overall win.

I know I'm in the minority but I love the stage racing.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
I actually like the strategy approach now. Some people decide to go for the stage win and stay out if a caution comes out, because those points matter. Others look at the overall win.

I know I'm in the minority but I love the stage racing.
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I wonder if you are in the minority...
At first I didn't think I would like stage racing. I can't say I "love" stage racing but I am OK with it.
At first I didn't like the playoff concept. But now I am OK with it.
I am also OK with the Lucky Dog and wave around.
I am OK with Pit Road speed limits and all that gear those pit crew members are required to wear.
They only change I seem to still have a problem with is the phantom cautions, which have significantly decreased this year.
 
Its the length of time these stage cautions take that gets me to change the channel. Seems like its overkill while they sweep the track clean, etc. There isnt a wreck to clean up after so why not a 2 lap caution and get back to green? Cautions at road courses are already way too long, speed the cars up or restart half way around the track.
They have 2 pace cars at the beginning, have 2 pace cars for each caution, one for lead lap cars and one a half lap behind for lapped cars, pit them all within the same lap and get back to racing.
 
I agree with no caution after the stage, in the late eighties there was bonus money paid for leading certain laps and there were no cautions.
 
CalTenn said:
I agree with no caution after the stage, in the late eighties there was bonus money paid for leading certain laps and there were no cautions.
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I like that....... It was called the Right Guard Challenge..... whoever was leading at halfway got 10 grand..... the race never stopped.... just kept going..... don't you think that now with all the technology and scoring loops that Nascar could know who crossed the line 1 thru 10... and just let 'em race instead of throwing a stupid caution.......... ???????????
 
Just imagine stage racing with no cautions. The strategy would be EPIC! Do you risk using up your tires to improve your position in order to gain bonus points, or do you save your stuff for the end of the race? Methinks it would create a lot more comers & goers throughout a pit cycle. As it currently stands, everyone in the top 15 is going all-out in the final 10ish laps of a run and it reduces passing opportunities because everyone is on the same strategy.
 
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