Rubbin' is racin'.....

[97forever]

Nowhere.

It's primarily a by-product of the Great Image Himself:

Yep.....scared to say it,arent we?Nah.

It's Dale Earnhardt who gave rise to this mis-spoken slogan.Oh,I know.All the old guys did it,right?Back in the years of Fireball and the other Junior(Johnson,that is),they rubbed and raced hard right?

Partially.They certainly had heated battles that did in fact include the occasional 'roughing up' of their rivals.They did get fired up and race hard.BUT the best never made a habit of deliberately knocking the competition out of the way.As a rule of thumb,Petty,Allison and Pearson actually raced pretty cleanly most of the time.The old highlights of the famed 'battles' were the exception....not the rule.

Unlike the Earnhardt era bumping.We all watched this stuff.Driver X couldn't pass Driver Y.Not without a little 'cage-rattling' that is.Can't outrun them or out drive them?No problem:rubbin is racin after all!And in cult-like fashion this kind of 'racing' was slowly put across as being the real deal!

Fly the flag with the big B.S on it now.It's time to set hard and fast rules against this kind of 'driving'.No INTENTIONAL contact should ever be allowed.Not on the first lap,not on the last.Not to keep from going a lap down,not at all.Not even to retaliate.
This sport needs to realize that real racers don't have to drive like that.Folk hero tactics aside.

Yeah,I watch it in the 'hog' division at the local track where the speeds hit 95 and the cars are old Torinos and Malibus.I watch the drunks and the fights and the breast-flashing too.But NASCAR WC series isnt our favorite local track.This is a sport that needs some respect from the mainstream----even as far it has come in that regard in the last few years.
So I think this crash mentality needs to be snuffed out.Keep the fire and the passion,of course,but stop the deliberate acts of crashing.

All just my opinion.To crash or not to crash??Which way would you vote?

Hey...I should have done one of those polls!

 

[Lap3Forever]

as my dad said. a old dirt track racer (USAC, AMA, ECT ECT)

Bump em' and Pass em'

 

[DeeDee]

97forever, you really make some excellent points. I like an exciting race, a little nudge from time to time, well that adds a little excitment. What I don't like is there are a few drivers that don't know how to just race, therefore they do more rubbin' than actual racin'. It's gotten out of hand. There's a big difference between rubbin' and wrecking.

 

[Ward Burton]

If you need to wreck someone to make a pass, you might as well let them stay ahead of you, that means that THEY have the better car.

 

[4xchampncountin]

:bslfag:

I love to see a bump-n-run for the lead. That is excitement and real balls-out racing to me. If you don't like contact, run open wheel. I for one don't care much for the open-wheel stuff for that precise reason. That is exactly why I love the short tracks. I hate it when a guy gets just a little contact at a place like Charlotte, Dega or Daytona and their day is done. They have no shot at winning at that point. Bring on the bangin' as long as it has to do with the lead. Banging someone to keep from going a lap down is complete BS. Banging a guy for 30th place makes no sense either.

 

[boB]

"Rubbin' is Racin'" is a line from probably the worst racing movie ever filmed, "Days of Thunder".

Any intentional contact on the race track is an act of sheer stupidity on the part of any driver who feels that "rattlin' his cage" is the way to race.
It is not only sheer stupitiy, it is dangerous and while some fans feel it is exciting, it will probably be allowed to continue until a fatality results.

At one time the NASCAR Winston Cup Series officials would blackflag anyone using those tactics and let them sit in the pits for a few laps to cool off. They called it the "Penaltybox". DW, Geoffrey Bodine, Dale Earnhardt, and IIRC Tim Richmond were some of the more frequent visitors. They were by no means the only drivers who made those visits.
I guess NASCAR gave up the idea because those "great" drivers weren't able to sit in the penalty box and still win races.

In short, there is absolutely no place in auto racing for intentional contact between cars.
If you feel otherwise, I'm sorry....

 

[97forever]

Originally posted by 4xchampncountin@May 20 2003, 06:24 PM
:bslfag:

I love to see a bump-n-run for the lead. That is excitement and real balls-out racing to me. If you don't like contact, run open wheel. I for one don't care much for the open-wheel stuff for that precise reason. That is exactly why I love the short tracks. I hate it when a guy gets just a little contact at a place like Charlotte, Dega or Daytona and their day is done. They have no shot at winning at that point. Bring on the bangin' as long as it has to do with the lead. Banging someone to keep from going a lap down is complete BS. Banging a guy for 30th place makes no sense either.

Yeah.Don't misunderstand please:I loved the finish between Craven and Busch,for instance,good,close racing at it's best.Hard driving and hard fought.

But it's not to much of a leap to see a different outcome to that same race where Kurt/Ricky intentionally crashes the other driver out of contention.THAT scenario is what I hate.

 

[97forever]

boB:

 

[Sleeper]

OH, I suppose you all want to take Checking out of Hockey and hitting the quarterback out of football.

I don't like the tactics that some drivers use and then brag how they needed a caution so they put someone into the wall (hmmm #97) ..... and I don't like to see the kind of stuff that Spencer and Bush got into at Indy.

BUT! and it is a BIG But. Ya can't go penalizing drivers for getting someone loose to make a pass on a one groove track. Ya can't go making NASCAR type decisions on "Intention" without knowing the facts.

Lots of racing accidents are the result of poor decisions or faulty equipment not intentional acts. Lets cut these drivers a break and NOT go letting NASCAR decide what is intentional and what is not.

If you want that kind of racing go watch the IRL or CART. Full body cars can take a little "RUB" and it is part of the race. Always has been and always should be. The drivers can take care of themselves. They have a way of sorting out the problem cases in the garage.

 

[97forever]

Hey...welcome to the forum Sleeper.This is a great place so enjoy.

You make a fair point about 'intention'.It shouldnt be up to NASCAR to have to tell each driver what is or isn't 'intent'.Any adult in a race car should be able to figure that out.I would wager that a lot MORE accidents could have been prevented with just a bit of restraint on the drivers part.Let's take the infamous Earnhardt/Labonte 'cage-rattling' of a few years ago.Was that the fault of faulty equipment?Of course not.Poor decisions then?A tricky way of putting it.It could be argued that every 'intentional' wrecking of a competitor is a poor decision!But we know full well I am not talking about one-groove race tracks or loosening someone up...I am talking about just such as occured in this example.

Cutting drivers a break for that type of incident is just wrong.And while full body cars may be able to take a little "rub"...why is it neccesary that they do so?

 

[4xchampncountin]

OK...So last years night race at Bristol when Jeff Gordon gave Rusty Wallace the old bump-n-run with around 6 laps to go and went on to win the race.

Was that...

A. Exciting

B. Wrong

C. The exact same thing Rusty would have done if he had the chance (remember that he, in effect, said as much in the post-race interview)

 

[97forever]

uh----B.

 

[97forever]

Or to elaborate...last year at Bristol Jeff pulls the old bump and run on Rusty.

Wallace loses control in this scenario though.

Smashes hard drivers side into the wall.Debris everywhere.Wallace with a mild concussion and two broken ribs.Misses three races.

Is that:

A.Still exciting?

B.wrong now?

C.Would have been wrong had Rusty have done the same thing?

 

[4xchampncountin]

I'll have to go with A and C and I would bet you are in the extreme minority in your opinion on this issue. But, you are entitled to it.

 

[4xchampncountin]

Originally posted by 97forever@May 21 2003, 03:09 AM
Or to elaborate...last year at Bristol Jeff pulls the old bump and run on Rusty.

Wallace loses control in this scenario though.

Smashes hard drivers side into the wall.Debris everywhere.Wallace with a mild concussion and two broken ribs.Misses three races.

Is that:

A.Still exciting?

B.wrong now?

C.Would have been wrong had Rusty have done the same thing?

Actually I would say that would be an unfortunate side effect of racing on a short track with 42 other cars.

 

[97forever]

Ok.I will drink to that too buddy! (Since I think I was responding at the same time you were :lol: )

 

[EJL]

Originally posted by ward22@May 20 2003, 07:50 PM
If you need to wreck someone to make a pass, you might as well let them stay ahead of you, that means that THEY have the better car.

excatly

 

[rctoyguy]

Some good points made all around - but I agree with everything 97 has said...

If you have to bump someone to get around them, then you shouldn't be around them. There will be incidental contact - the 97-32 incident is a good example. The problem is with the intentional cases, like the 24-2 and the 3-5 that have been mentioned.

In the 24-2 case, just because Rusty said he would have done the same thing don't make it right.

 

[paul]

Originally posted by 4xchampncountin@May 20 2003, 11:09 PM
I'll have to go with A and C and I would bet you are in the extreme minority in your opinion on this issue. But, you are entitled to it. 

Sorry but he's probably in the vast majority.

"Rubbin" is death in any other kind of racing except for NASCAR.

Why does NASCAR need 40+ cars in every race when only 5-8 of them have a chance in hell of winning? Because people love to see the crashes.

 

[de7xwcc]

Originally posted by 97forever@May 21 2003, 03:04 AM
uh----B.

so i guess your boy in the 97 was wrong when he did the bump and run on Jimmy to win his first at BMS.
if you don't like the bump and run and think beatin and banging are wrong 1. you picked the wrong driver, and 2. may be you should be watching F1 or something.
NASCAR is becoming to sanitized and politically correct. I really don't know how long you have been a fan but i know the racin was much more fun to watch in the late 70's till about 1990. IMHO
i guess we can agree to disagree on this topic

 

[paul]

Originally posted by de7xwcc@May 21 2003, 01:24 PM

NASCAR is becoming to sanitized and politically correct.

Are you one of the people that dislikes Stewart and Busch?

They're as unsanitized and un-PC as it gets, and get booed from the fans on a daily basis.

The squeaky clean Jr has 99% of the fans behind him, most of whom are the same people booing the other two, so I think you can thank your fellow Jr fans for helping create that sanitized environment. NASCAR sees who the fans want to see in victory lane, and supress those that are a direct challenge to him.

 

[de7xwcc]

Originally posted by paul+May 21 2003, 05:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (paul @ May 21 2003, 05:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--de7xwcc@May 21 2003, 01:24 PM

NASCAR is becoming to sanitized and politically correct.

Are you one of the people that dislikes Stewart and Busch?

They're as unsanitized and un-PC as it gets, and get booed from the fans on a daily basis.

The squeaky clean Jr has 99% of the fans behind him, most of whom are the same people booing the other two, so I think you can thank your fellow Jr fans for helping create that sanitized environment. NASCAR sees who the fans want to see in victory lane, and supress those that are a direct challenge to him. [/b][/quote]
GOD NO i like the 20, 97, 7, 29, 31 etc. Just because i was a DE fan don't mean im a jr fan, sure he is OK but i like someone with a little more passion. How in the world could you read my post and think anything else ? I said NASCAR was to sanitized and politically correct

 

[Whizzer]

Originally posted by ward22@May 20 2003, 10:50 PM
If you need to wreck someone to make a pass, you might as well let them stay ahead of you, that means that THEY have the better car.

JGordon "moving" Rusty up the hill or Busch "helping" Spencer find his own line are a part of racing. In both cases it was obvious the outcome went to the drivers with the fastest cars and the moves were acceptable. Pretty much anything goes on the last lap, within reason.

Knocking someone out of the way and wrecking them is different.
The key here is in the final laps of a race, with the faster car, a slight nudge is what racing is about. Getting nudged from the lead by a faster car is the penalty for blocking and when a slower car is in the lead, blocking with two laps to go, the second place guy with the fastest car has to make a decision.

Even nice guys think about it and in the case of Johnny Benson versus Kurt Busch at Martinsville, Benson admitted he tried, yet he did not have the fastest car as proven in the final laps.

To tap or not to tap, that is the question. With two laps to go, what would you justify if your favoite driver were riding in second place and you knew his car was faster than the lead car???

 

[4xchampncountin]

Very good points Whizzer

 

[97forever]

True,a good point.But a classic example of hard racing vs. bump-style wrecking is Newman/Busch last year.Hard and exciting but both guys drove to the finish.A case of two cars being pretty equal,with one attempting to pass,one attempting to not let the other pass----without any un-neccesary 'cage-rattling'.

Contrary to popular belief races can be both exciting and dramatic without those reckless antics.Certainly Busch(as a good example]could have taken out Newman or Jarrett or Craven in those three close fought second place finishes.Or taken himself out,maybe,but the point is the racing was still exciting as it was.

And the 'one-groove' race track is just another cop-out used as a feeble justification by those that would rather bump than drive.Why is the final lap any different than the other 499?Could drivers not pass on any of those laps without smack and run tactics?

The 'no way to pass' track is just a fallacy in my opinion.

So to answer directly,my driver in second,two laps to go in the fastest car...what to do?Out drive him,out respond him,out smart him.Just don't needlessly wreck him.

Just another take on it,not to sound argumentive.

 

[Gollum]

Emotions run high on the track. If you have the faster car and try to get around someone two or three times and he blocks you. About any driver out there is going to give a good hard love tap to get by. It has been part of Nascar forn the begining and will continue to be. No matter how much we debate it.

 

[Windsor377]

My feeling on the matter is this. If some one "rubs" my car, I'm going to "rub" their jaw.

 

[toddgee24]

well i think windsor is being fined with actions detremental to the sport lol,just like harvick for showing his emotions with biffle, and biffle wrecked him didnt rub him, oh ya i forgot, no emotions allowed any more

 

[Gordon Fan]

Originally posted by 97forever@May 20 2003, 08:09 PM
Or to elaborate...last year at Bristol Jeff pulls the old bump and run on Rusty.

Wallace loses control in this scenario though.

Smashes hard drivers side into the wall.Debris everywhere.Wallace with a mild concussion and two broken ribs.Misses three races.

Is that:

A.Still exciting?

B.wrong now?

C.Would have been wrong had Rusty have done the same thing?

Oh, you mean like Richmond when Rusty punted Jeff into the wall?

 

[97forever]

Originally posted by Gordon Fan+May 22 2003, 09:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Gordon Fan @ May 22 2003, 09:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--97forever@May 20 2003, 08:09 PM
Or to elaborate...last year at Bristol Jeff pulls the old bump and run on Rusty.

Wallace loses control in this scenario though.

Smashes hard drivers side into the wall.Debris everywhere.Wallace with a mild concussion and two broken ribs.Misses three races.

Is that:

A.Still exciting?

B.wrong now?

C.Would have been wrong had Rusty have done the same thing?

Oh, you mean like Richmond when Rusty punted Jeff into the wall? [/b][/quote]
It's wrong,IMO,regardless of who wrecks whom.

The notion that somehow racing isn't 'real' without the bumping/wrecking is just a media myth being force fed to the fans.It's just not needed and popularized primarily by Earnhardt Sr. and his cult-hero status.

 

[Windsor377]

Originally posted by toddgee24@May 22 2003, 09:32 PM
well i think windsor is being fined with actions detremental to the sport lol,just like harvick for showing his emotions with biffle, and biffle wrecked him didnt rub him, oh ya i forgot, no emotions allowed any more

LOL!

 

[4xchampncountin]

Originally posted by 97forever+May 23 2003, 02:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (97forever @ May 23 2003, 02:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Gordon Fan@May 22 2003, 09:43 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--97forever

@May 20 2003, 08:09 PM
Or to elaborate...last year at Bristol Jeff pulls the old bump and run on Rusty.

Wallace loses control in this scenario though.

Smashes hard drivers side into the wall.Debris everywhere.Wallace with a mild concussion and two broken ribs.Misses three races.

Is that:

A.Still exciting?

B.wrong now?

C.Would have been wrong had Rusty have done the same thing?

Oh, you mean like Richmond when Rusty punted Jeff into the wall?

It's wrong,IMO,regardless of who wrecks whom.

The notion that somehow racing isn't 'real' without the bumping/wrecking is just a media myth being force fed to the fans.It's just not needed and popularized primarily by Earnhardt Sr. and his cult-hero status. [/b][/quote]
I resent the implication that I don't have a mind of my own. I certainly do and I enjoy beatin'-n'-bangin' more than most. I would much rather see guys beating on each other for 500 laps to decide who the better driver is than to watch 500 miles of manufactured crap called a plate "race".

 

[paul]

Why is it not exciting unless the cars are smashing into each other? Why is a pass not as much fun for you unless the drivers are just trying to push each other out of the way?

 

[4xchampncountin]

Originally posted by paul@May 23 2003, 03:23 AM
Why is it not exciting unless the cars are smashing into each other? Why is a pass not as much fun for you unless the drivers are just trying to push each other out of the way?

That's not exactly what I am saying. I enjoy a clean race as much as the next guy as long as the drivers decide the winner. Sometimes the best way for a driver to decide to win is to want it bad enough to bump a slower car out of the way as Jeff did at Bristol. If Rusty was truely faster, Jeff would not have had the chance to bump him. I just really enjoy watching 2 seasoned driver's try to outwit and outdrive each other to the flag.

 

[paul]

Originally posted by 4xchampncountin@May 22 2003, 11:28 PM
Sometimes the best way for a driver to decide to win is to want it bad enough to bump a slower car out of the way

Hmm...here's a crazy thought...

How about passing him?

I mean, I've seen it done in every other type of motorsport in the history of the world so I know the actual idea exists, not only in theory but in practice as well.

 

[pbunch]

Originally posted by paul@May 22 2003, 10:23 PM
Why is it not exciting unless the cars are smashing into each other? Why is a pass not as much fun for you unless the drivers are just trying to push each other out of the way?

Paul,most fans do not understand the feel a a good pass,or understand the talent that it takes to make that move. A crash has a lot more attention given to it than a good move in the media circus of today.

 

[paul]

pbunch, how are ya? Ever gonna grace us with more than just a few posts a month anymore? Could use ya around here.

 

[pbunch]

Originally posted by paul@May 22 2003, 11:22 PM
pbunch, how are ya? Ever gonna grace us with more than just a few posts a month anymore? Could use ya around here.

Been thinkin about doing just that Paul,How the heck have you been?

 

[slick-nick]

Originally posted by paul+May 22 2003, 10:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (paul @ May 22 2003, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--4xchampncountin@May 22 2003, 11:28 PM
Sometimes the best way for a driver to decide to win is to want it bad enough to bump a slower car out of the way

Hmm...here's a crazy thought...

How about passing him?

I mean, I've seen it done in every other type of motorsport in the history of the world so I know the actual idea exists, not only in theory but in practice as well. [/b][/quote]
I agree with what paul is saying... believe it or not, sometimes I don't.. but this time I do. I love auto racing.. not the WWE version of it. I know accidents can happen, but to just run into another driver like Gordo did to Ward in the Winston.. its just uncalled for. No point of bump drafting at Lowes.. he could of passed him clean, no harm.. no foul.

 

[pbunch]

A race like the winston will breed those kind of passes.The dollor signs are popping into the big wallet drivers.