Show me the debris - Are you 'needy'?

dpkimmel2001

dpkimmel2001

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Lot's of calls this week about the showing of debris after a debris caution. I just read this article from Jeff Gluck and thought maybe some of you might be interested.....

NASCAR: People Who Want To See Reason For Debris Cautions Are 'Needy'

After Saturday night's NASCAR race at Richmond, third-place finisher Tony Stewart questioned the late debris caution thrown by NASCAR – a caution which cost him the race win.

Stewart said the caution was thrown for a plastic bottle that was "out of the groove" on the backstretch and had been "sitting there for eight laps."

NASCAR, though, said there was a piece of aluminum on the track and the caution was warranted. FOX didn't show the debris on TV, but one of NASCAR's top officials said Tuesday night it wasn't necessary to do so.

"Sometimes, some people are a little more needy than others and they want to see that for whatever reason," NASCAR vice president of competition Robin Pemberton told reporters attending a function at Charlotte Motor Speedway. "And whatever their thought process and beliefs with the governing body (are), they think they need proof.

"Sometimes you see (the debris) and sometimes you don't, and that's based on TV coverage, basically."

But Pemberton said FOX "didn't do anything wrong" and he doesn't mind TV not showing the reason for debris caution because, "I don't have an issue with (the reason for the caution)."

He also said NASCAR does not keep the debris as evidence of why it called the caution.

"We don't inventory it, we don't tag it and put it a library anywhere or anything," he said. "It's just trash."

So what was the debris at Richmond? Pemberton said there may have been a water bottle on the track, but there was also a beer can or piece of aluminum that had been run over.

"A lot of times, you call it for one thing and then you pick that up and anything else that's in the vicinity," he said.
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Story from here.
 
Mike Bagley of MRN Radio and Sirius NASCAR Radio's TMD called for the following.....

All debris must be presented to the crowd by a NASCAR official much like Simba was at the beginning of "The Lion King."
 
I agree with NASCAR. As someone who can't stand conspiracy theorists and their ridiculous theories I'm glad NASCAR is basically telling them to go fly a kite. If drivers like Tony want to try and ruin NASCAR's credibility then he should do so at his own peril.
 
Matthew2470 said:
I agree with NASCAR. As someone who can't stand conspiracy theorists and their ridiculous theories I'm glad NASCAR is basically telling them to go fly a kite. If drivers like Tony want to try and ruin NASCAR's credibility then he should do so at his own peril.
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NASCAR has credibility? They have a long history of throwing fake cautions.
 
Matthew2470 said:
I would like to see documented proof of this. Unless you are a conspiracy theorist and have no proof. In that case I am really not interested.
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Does it have to be Notarized? Unfortunately, not everything NASCAR does is documented and signed in triplicate.

That being said, I have seen races where they send the guy out with the shovel to scoop up the hot dog wrapper/Water bottle. If you would like me to sign an affidavit for you, I can make those arrangements.
 
sloggie said:
Does it have to be Notarized? Unfortunately, not everything NASCAR does is documented and signed in triplicate.

That being said, I have seen races where they send the guy out with the shovel to scoop up the hot dog wrapper/Water bottle. If you would like me to sign an affidavit for you, I can make those arrangements.
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I would like that.
 
I'll get the squegee so they can bottle the oil on the track to show you.
 
In all seriousness, this problem isn't going away for NASCAR. The NBA has a similar problem with their Referees with the gambling scandal. These things take on a life of their own, and the controversy will not go away over time.
 
Matthew2470 said:
I would like to see documented proof of this. Unless you are a conspiracy theorist and have no proof. In that case I am really not interested.
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I have to take issue with this. While it may be impossible to document there is no doubt that it did happen from time to time... I do think that the incidence of it happeneing have lessened in recent years, however.
 
If NASCAR really is serious about going green, they should save and catagorize any debris that causes a caution. That way, they could recycle it during a later race.




Oh, THAT kind of green.
 
This has been NASCAR's biggest credibility issue imo. I am not a conspiracy type, NASCAR isn't trying to favor anyone. Neither do I believe any race sanctioning body is perfect and overall NASCAR has done a great job. I also believe Moody in regards to this particular case.


But this has been a flaw, thankfully matters have improved. However NASCAR has earned a black eye, and they have fluffed or juiced races in the past.


NASCAR has always had an military like approach. You just don't challenge the hierarchy, just say yes sir and deal with it.
They expect drivers and the fans to always see their brilliance.


But skeptics over phantom cautions do have cause, just not much for 2012.
 
Going thru some old pics, and I found this from Loudon a few years ago.
When I made the sign, I didn't know it would gain a cult following...
Thecampinggang.jpg

Seems appropriate enough...
 
Anyone who has watched Nascar racing has seen debris being knocked around as cars slow down when the caution flag comes out .Sometimes it gets knocked off the track ,sometimes up into the stands , sometimes through the grill of one of the cars . My point is ...it is not always where it was when the caution flag came out .If Nascar is charged with the task of producing a picture of the debris ,they may have to red flag the race till they find it . Is everyone okay with that?
 
MAGICMILER said:
Going thru some old pics, and I found this from Loudon a few years ago.
When I made the sign, I didn't know it would gain a cult following...
Thecampinggang.jpg

Seems appropriate enough...
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I like that. Now you can add '...or not' to the bottom.
 
MAGICMILER said:
Going thru some old pics, and I found this from Loudon a few years ago.
When I made the sign, I didn't know it would gain a cult following...
Thecampinggang.jpg

Seems appropriate enough...
Click to expand...
What a great looking bunch of race fans having a good time with a couple a three adult beverages.
 
I'd be a fool if I was to think that Nascar wouldn't take advantage of any situation which may lead to more a exciting product being presented to the public.

Caution flags are a perfect example and, IMO, are sometimes a judgement call that Nascar can make based on the requirements of the situation. The very same way they take advantage of Earnhardt Jr's popularity, Carl Edwards' car nearly flying into the crowd, the "big one" at plate tracks and the loss of tempers at short tracks. They simply do not allow those opportunities to slip away or leave things to chance.

So how could I think that they wouldn't use cautions as a means to an end? I can't.
 
I was one who thought Nascar and TV should make every effort to show the debris . I was reminded of two things , first ..if the debris was gone ,either blown away or knocked away by the time the safety truck arrived ,wouldn't that give the conspiracy people even more ammunition...Second , anyone who wants to listen to the track officials channel on XM radio can find out what and where the debris is , who reported it and what Nascar did to confirm the sighting . In other words , the proof is already available but the conspiracy folks choose to ignore it.
 
ted@economy said:
I was one who thought Nascar and TV should make every effort to show the debris . I was reminded of two things , first ..if the debris was gone ,either blown away or knocked away by the time the safety truck arrived ,wouldn't that give the conspiracy people even more ammunition...Second , anyone who wants to listen to the track officials channel on XM radio can find out what and where the debris is , who reported it and what Nascar did to confirm the sighting . In other words , the proof is already available but the conspiracy folks choose to ignore it.
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Very true.
 
#17D500winner said:
I'd be a fool if I was to think that Nascar wouldn't take advantage of any situation which may lead to more a exciting product being presented to the public.

Caution flags are a perfect example and, IMO, are sometimes a judgement call that Nascar can make based on the requirements of the situation. The very same way they take advantage of Earnhardt Jr's popularity, Carl Edwards' car nearly flying into the crowd, the "big one" at plate tracks and the loss of tempers at short tracks. They simply do not allow those opportunities to slip away or leave things to chance.

So how could I think that they wouldn't use cautions as a means to an end? I can't.
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Well said. NASCAR wants more of the above, which is why they said 'have at it'.
 
There's no conspiracy. It's Nascar's product and they control it. The same manner in which Trump and Gates control their interests.
 
sloggie said:
NASCAR has credibility? They have a long history of throwing fake cautions.
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Okay all you language buffs . My question is ..What is it called when someone states a hypothesis as if it were a proven fact .Example .. Everyone knows winning a restrictor plate race is just luck. Example ..Nascar has a long history of throwing fake cautions . There was a third really good one today but I can't find it . Anyway , is there a word for this practice ?
 
ted@economy said:
I was one who thought Nascar and TV should make every effort to show the debris . I was reminded of two things , first ..if the debris was gone ,either blown away or knocked away by the time the safety truck arrived ,wouldn't that give the conspiracy people even more ammunition...Second , anyone who wants to listen to the track officials channel on XM radio can find out what and where the debris is , who reported it and what Nascar did to confirm the sighting . In other words , the proof is already available but the conspiracy folks choose to ignore it.
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Not everyone has Sirius-XM Radio.

FOX and NBC used to show the debris every time, back when they made an effort to show the races. But now, FOX can hardly show the race, who thinks they'd show debris.
 
Focusing on those who want debris evidence is a brilliant way to make most skeptics look like kooks.


No I don't want evidence, I want an adult relationship and sees the foolishness of creating a tagging system and a documented ledger. I also realize that you will never please everyone, don't be foolish enough to try.


But reasonable people do have there doubts, and they should also know that race control is tough business, and you have to err on the side of safety.



But let's not pretend that the convenient cases have not occurred enough times to raise eyebrows. Let's also try not to demagogue honest skeptics, unless you have a NASCAR license and are subjected to shut up fines, it should not be taboo to admit the obvious.


Again I am not arguing for Stewart/Richmond or for court room exhibits . I am speaking of history and an honest acknowledgement.


Put it all on the kooks needing exhibits for shielding if needed, but those preferred battle lines are not that simple.
 
Stewart's post-race comments fueled the fake caution fire...should he in some way be reprimanded? Much in the same way as Keselowski, Hamlin and Newman have been in the recent past.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Not everyone has Sirius-XM Radio.
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Gee Andy , I thought as a reporter , you might be answering my language question for me . Instead I get this evasive silliness ? The fact that not everyone has Sirius/XM has no bearing on the fact the the evidence is available for anyone to hear if they choose to listen . They won't .
 
ted@economy said:
Gee Andy , I thought as a reporter , you might be answering my language question for me . Instead I get this evasive silliness ? The fact that not everyone has Sirius/XM has no bearing on the fact the the evidence is available for anyone to hear if they choose to listen . They won't .
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You can "choose to listen" if you pay for SiriusXM Radio or pay for Trackpass. I'm not sure if you've noticed this or not, but the economy isn't all that great right now and people don't have that kind of money to throw around.
 
Stewart Fan said:
LOL, yeah lets make sure no driver is allowed to have personality anymore.
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They seem to have tempered the 3 drivers I mentioned. Although, the irony of the EFI system coming back to bite Keselowski may have him believing in Karma ;)
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
You can "choose to listen" if you pay for SiriusXM Radio or pay for Trackpass. I'm not sure if you've noticed this or not, but the economy isn't all that great right now and people don't have that kind of money to throw around.
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Wether or not people listen for the evidence or choose to comprehend the evidence , doesn't change the fact that the evidence is on public display . If they choose to plug their ears , it doesn't make it not there.
 
ted@economy said:
Wether or not people listen for the evidence or choose to comprehend the evidence , doesn't change the fact that the evidence is on public display . If they choose to plug their ears , it doesn't make it not there.
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So, fans should go above and beyond and pay money to get basic race information. Give me a ****** break. Realistically, I don't think it's too much that the networks show debris for a debris caution. I mean, I know we're dealing with FOX and TNT who can't even show basic lead changes but still... this is common sense stuff the networks should be doing anyways.

If there's a penalty in football, the networks will analyze the replay several times over and explain what the penalty was or why it was a bull**** call. If it was any other sport, the networks would show you the basic stuff going on.
 
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