Show me the debris - Are you 'needy'?

Got to love the classic American distrust of authority.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
So, fans should go above and beyond and pay money to get basic race information. Give me a ******* break. Realistically, I don't think it's too much that the networks show debris for a debris caution. I mean, I know we're dealing with FOX and TNT who can't even show basic lead changes.
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I agree that the networks are lazy , inept and poorly informed to not show such a game changing thing as debris . It's like not showing the infraction when a penalty is called . Stupid . For anyone to think that Nascar would throw a caution just to bunch up the field is even stupider . Do I think that we fans NEED to see the debris ..no. I am happy to take Nascar's word on it.
 
ted@economy said:
I agree that the networks are lazy , inept and poorly informed to not show such a game changing thing as debris . It's like not showing the infraction when a penalty is called . Stupid . For anyone to think that Nascar would throw a caution just to bunch up the field is even stupider . Do I think that we fans NEED to see the debris ..no. I am happy to take Nascar's word on it.
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You can NOT be serious.......
 
kkfan91 said:
Got to love the classic American distrust of authority.
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I guess you would've been okay with SOPA passing, which was a bill that would literally allow big businesses to shut down small business' websites by claiming copyright without proof, and created a stunning lack of due process. I guess you're also you're okay with indefinite detentions without due process (even for American citizens) or assassinations of American citizens overseas without due process.
 
Stewart Fan said:
You can NOT be serious.......
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Absolutely . Can't happen. Too many drivers , spotters , tv crews , on track announcers , mrn reporters , and fans at the track would have to be involved to make that conspiracy work . But we are each entitled to an opinion ,right ?
 
ted@economy said:
Okay all you language buffs . My question is ..What is it called when someone states a hypothesis as if it were a proven fact .Example .. Everyone knows winning a restrictor plate race is just luck. Example ..Nascar has a long history of throwing fake cautions . There was a third really good one today but I can't find it . Anyway , is there a word for this practice ?
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S.W.A.G. = Scientific Wild-Ass Guess?
 
ted@economy said:
Absolutely . Can't happen. Too many drivers , spotters , tv crews , on track announcers , mrn reporters , and fans at the track would have to be involved to make that conspiracy work . But we are each entitled to an opinion ,right ?
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Indeed we are and I respect your opinion even if it didn't come across like that. However, can you honestly say that in Nascar's entire existence they have NEVER thrown a fake caution?
 
Stewart Fan said:
Indeed we are and I respect your opinion even if it didn't come across like that. However, can you honestly say that in Nascar's entire existence they have NEVER thrown a fake caution?
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Not to my knowledge , but I'm guessin that you have proof of one.
 
ted@economy said:
Absolutely . Can't happen. Too many drivers , spotters , tv crews , on track announcers , mrn reporters , and fans at the track would have to be involved to make that conspiracy work . But we are each entitled to an opinion ,right ?
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All of those competitors are subjected to fines, it ain't Stepford but they know the rules.


You ain't gonna cover a lot of races either without knowing the chain of command. I respect most of them but loyalty is as important as the hard reporting, maybe more.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
I guess you would've been okay with SOPA passing, which was a bill that would literally allow big businesses to shut down small business' websites by claiming copyright without proof, and created a stunning lack of due process. I guess you're also you're okay with indefinite detentions without due process (even for American citizens) or assassinations of American citizens overseas without due process.
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Don't put words in my mouth Andy. But you sound like an insane conspiracy theorist (as do must Americans when they talk about government).
 
I bet some of these posters are undercover government agents who have taken bribes from Carls' front teeth.
 
kkfan91 said:
Don't put words in my mouth Andy. But you sound like an insane conspiracy theorist (as do must Americans when they talk about government).
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That's not "insane conspiracy theorist" stuff, those are facts. Your government thanks you for being a good, obedient little sheeple.
 
ted@economy said:
Okay all you language buffs . My question is ..What is it called when someone states a hypothesis as if it were a proven fact .Example .. Everyone knows winning a restrictor plate race is just luck. Example ..Nascar has a long history of throwing fake cautions . There was a third really good one today but I can't find it . Anyway , is there a word for this practice ?
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One could refer to them as "scientists" I suppose...
Typically, a scientist devises a hypothesis and then sees if it ``holds water'' by testing it against available data (obtained from previous experiments and observations). If the hypothesis does hold water, the scientist declares it to be a theory.
 
And why is everyone being called a conspiracy theorist if people think NASCAR throws out cautions for mystery debris? That's not exactly the same thing as thinking that the government staged 9-11.
 
Some pretty good posts until someone decides to take them in a political direction. Take that crap over to where it belongs. Here's the link for those of you that lost your way.

As far as the topic of showing or not showing the debris goes. I'm not one that questions every debris caution and I don't really grasp the concept of those that do. I sure as heck wouldn't be watching this sport if I were constantly questioning the sanctioning body and thought that what I am watching is being manipulated. People continue to call the sport and those that officiate or run it corrupt and yet they watch anyway.

For those of you that feel that any/some/most of these debris cautions are nothing more than some sort of manipulation then I have to ask, what for? If they do it to aid someone then why didn't I see some sort of caution last week to get Kyle Busch and Earnhardt Jr. line up for a g/w/c restart? If they do it simply to add a little excitement to an otherwise long, drawn out event then why didn't I see several thrown at Texas a few weeks ago. Why not some more at Bristol, Fontana, etc.....? Double wide restarts can be pretty exciting.

I think they should at least make an attempt to show the debris only because it is something that affects the race but I don't think that it is going to change anyone's mind about why they are thrown. The next problem will be is that race fans will start questioning whether or not the debris is caution worthy. Another problem will be when the camera doesn't catch the moment that the track worker is actually picking up the debris off of the track. I mean if you don't see it it doesn't exist, right? Kinda like "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Here's a thought..... maybe the safety vehicles can carry the debris and drive to a specific location to place the piece/pieces on display for the masses to see. No, that won't work either. It'll still be questioned. It's a NO WIN situation IMO.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Some pretty good posts until someone decides to take them in a political direction. Take that crap over to where it belongs. Here's the link for those of you that lost your way.

As far as the topic of showing or not showing the debris goes. I'm not one that questions every debris caution and I don't really grasp the concept of those that do. I sure as heck wouldn't be watching this sport if I were constantly questioning the sanctioning body and thought that what I am watching is being manipulated. People continue to call the sport and those that officiate or run it corrupt and yet they watch anyway.

For those of you that feel that any/some/most of these debris cautions are nothing more than some sort of manipulation then I have to ask, what for? If they do it to aid someone then why didn't I see some sort of caution last week to get Kyle Busch and Earnhardt Jr. line up for a g/w/c restart? If they do it simply to add a little excitement to an otherwise long, drawn out event then why didn't I see several thrown at Texas a few weeks ago. Why not some more at Bristol, Fontana, etc.....? Double wide restarts can be pretty exciting.

I think they should at least make an attempt to show the debris only because it is something that affects the race but I don't think that it is going to change anyone's mind about why they are thrown. The next problem will be is that race fans will start questioning whether or not the debris is caution worthy. Another problem will be when the camera doesn't catch the moment that the track worker is actually picking up the debris off of the track. I mean if you don't see it it doesn't exist, right? Kinda like "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Here's a thought..... maybe the safety vehicles can carry the debris and drive to a specific location to place the piece/pieces on display for the masses to see. No, that won't work either. It'll still be questioned. It's a NO WIN situation IMO.
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If drivers are going to question it, you can be sure that fans will as well.

If cameras can find Kim Burton, surely they can find a tubby track worker and a truck with flashing lights, no?
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Some pretty good posts until someone decides to take them in a political direction. Take that crap over to where it belongs. Here's the link for those of you that lost your way.

As far as the topic of showing or not showing the debris goes. I'm not one that questions every debris caution and I don't really grasp the concept of those that do. I sure as heck wouldn't be watching this sport if I were constantly questioning the sanctioning body and thought that what I am watching is being manipulated. People continue to call the sport and those that officiate or run it corrupt and yet they watch anyway.

For those of you that feel that any/some/most of these debris cautions are nothing more than some sort of manipulation then I have to ask, what for? If they do it to aid someone then why didn't I see some sort of caution last week to get Kyle Busch and Earnhardt Jr. line up for a g/w/c restart? If they do it simply to add a little excitement to an otherwise long, drawn out event then why didn't I see several thrown at Texas a few weeks ago. Why not some more at Bristol, Fontana, etc.....? Double wide restarts can be pretty exciting.

I think they should at least make an attempt to show the debris only because it is something that affects the race but I don't think that it is going to change anyone's mind about why they are thrown. The next problem will be is that race fans will start questioning whether or not the debris is caution worthy. Another problem will be when the camera doesn't catch the moment that the track worker is actually picking up the debris off of the track. I mean if you don't see it it doesn't exist, right? Kinda like "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Here's a thought..... maybe the safety vehicles can carry the debris and drive to a specific location to place the piece/pieces on display for the masses to see. No, that won't work either. It'll still be questioned. It's a NO WIN situation IMO.
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I like the way you directed the political yap yap to the right forum, good job.
I don't think our differences are as great as this thread might suggest.


I believe most 90 % or more of the cautions are legit. I just think they have used a few in the past to tighten up the field, but with no intention to help or hurt a driver.
For whatever ever reason that's not the case this year, and I am happy to see longer runs.


No sanctioning body is perfect and they all need a little grace or benefit of the doubt.
Look at the way Cart screwed up, with the Bobby Unser and Mario Andretti 500 and that was before the series was split. F1s Bernie is greasy to say the least.
I have also seen just about every local promoter I have known make some questionable choices.


So I can honestly say I think Nascar is the best (I will get hyped up sometimes, or full of crap and rant, but I don't live that way).


I know there are some who will complain about every thing and have nothing good to say. I get fed up with them. Thankfully this forum has a good etiquette policy, and good moderators, it restrains me from saying what I really think of the constant complainers.
 
Excerpt from an article out today.....

Immediately after the race Tony Stewart – the driver who had the most to lose from the caution – cried foul, claiming the “debris” was nothing more than a water bottle that wasn’t in the racing groove.

His word was taken by many as gospel, which of course reignited the debate whether NASCAR throws “phantom debris” cautions, tightening the field for better racing.

But at least three drivers, including Kevin Harvick and Carl Edwards – who was black-flagged on the previous restart and not happy with NASCAR – had radioed in, complaining of debris in various areas of the track.

In any case, driver discontent is interesting, and that became the lingering issue after the race.
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Read the rest here.
 
Greg said:
I believe most 90 % or more of the cautions are legit. I just think they have used a few in the past to tighten up the field, but with no intention to help or hurt a driver.
For whatever ever reason that's not the case this year, and I am happy to see longer runs.
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+10

No doubt that NA$$CAR has thrown "Competition Cautions" or "Phantom Debris Cautions" in the past as a means of "Juicing" the races. Any long-time NA$$CAR Fan has seen it. But now that all of the attention is being paid to these "incidents" they have become less common. And that is a GOOD thing!

FOX is very good at placing in-car cameras in racecars. And I like many of the images that are provided by those cameras. I have to agree with Andy that FOX tends to rely on those cameras too much during their telecasts, however.

But my point is that since FOX and technology have mastered this, why not mount an in-car camera on every track clean-up vehicle?

In case you couldn't tell there was a bit of :sarcasm: in that previous stament...
 
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