SMT Data---Why?

Revman

Revman

Denny beat your favorite driver....again!
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So, why is SMT data available in NASCAR? Why would we make throttle tracings and brake pressure available to all? Gabehart consistently feeds Denny data about what other drivers are doing. In a driver-centric series, why the hell would we want to share secrets? Let the drivers figure it out for themselves. I also learned that the digital dash gives the driver information such as throttle application which assists in fuel savings. Why? How does this enhance the formula of NASCAR?
 
Revman said:
So, why is SMT data available in NASCAR? Why would we make throttle tracings and brake pressure available to all? Gabehart consistently feeds Denny data about what other drivers are doing. In a driver-centric series, why the hell would we want to share secrets? Let the drivers figure it out for themselves. I also learned that the digital dash gives the driver information such as throttle application which assists in fuel savings. Why? How does this enhance the formula of NASCAR?
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Can't say I disagree. Would be fun to see how it goes for a few years without it.
 
Revman said:
In a driver-centric series
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Getting further and further away from this. Kevin Harvick dominates 2020 with 9 wins and 20 top 5s. NASCAR amends a wheel well rule, and Kevin Harvick can’t even smell the top 10 most days in 2021. Drivers drive the cars, but the engineers are winning races. What do engineers want to see?

You guessed it.
Revman said:
data
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ChexOrWrex said:
Getting further and further away from this. Kevin Harvick dominates 2020 with 9 wins and 20 top 5s. NASCAR amends a wheel well rule, and Kevin Harvick can’t even smell the top 10 most days in 2021. Drivers drive the cars, but the engineers are winning races. What do engineers want to see?

You guessed it.
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I hear you, but NASCAR fights that right? They want this to be in the driver's hands....Why make that kind of data so accessible, and blur the line between the greats and the average? I mean that **** costs money....Did anybody think of this? I will also add that I have never been able to figure out the digital dash. Initially, it was to emulate what is in a street car, but my dash doesn't look like that...
 
Revman said:
I hear you, but NASCAR fights that right? They want this to be in the driver's hands....Why make that kind of data so accessible, and blur the line between the greats and the average? I mean that **** costs money....Did anybody think of this? I will also add that I have never been able to figure out the digital dash. Initially, it was to emulate what is in a street car, but my dash doesn't look like that...
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Because the highlighted sentence above is wrong. NASCAR doesn’t care whos hands the racing is in. The only hands they care about are the ones with money in them, and those hands are calling the shots.

And it’s turned into a mess of trying to create closer racing while following the evolution of auto racing technology.

If they did it right, they’d have the same data they do now but with cars that rely more on mechanical grip than aerodynamic.
 
Let me know when Toyota gets pulled into thread, this then I'll check back.

It's ok, I can wait three more posts.
 
I have to agree that for as long as NASCAR fought letting the teams have ANY data, their own or otherwise during during the actual event itself, I am more than a little surprised that all of this data is allowed to be collected and distributed to everyone. I think ONE of the reasons they a do it is to try to prevent any one team from getting too much of an advantage in certain areas by letting EVERYONE know where they are making their lap times, and figure it will help keep the competition close. I also wouldn't be surprised if NASCAR felt the teams were spending too much time and money trying to collect that data in more clandestine ways (look at all the pictures of other cars they take) and figured it would be cheaper to just give out all of that data. Personally, I would be in favor of removing ALL the data and letting the teams figure this stuff out for themselves. At the top level of ANY sport, I generally don't agree with ANYTHING that makes it EASIER (as in less skill level) to compete. It's why I am so opposed to things like single lug wheels, sequential shifters, digital dashes etc.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Because the highlighted sentence above is wrong. NASCAR doesn’t care whos hands the racing is in. The only hands they care about are the ones with money in them, and those hands are calling the shots.

And it’s turned into a mess of trying to create closer racing while following the evolution of auto racing technology.

If they did it right, they’d have the same data they do now but with cars that rely more on mechanical grip than aerodynamic.
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This is it.

And there's plenty of evidence to support it with a bit of critical thinking.

1. Look at the entire sports world. It's all geared moreso towards entertainment and money.

The NFL, the MLB all push offense.

The NBA literally created defensive rules that favor offensive perimeter players so we get more scoring.

Nascar creating an aero/money dependent package is just their version of ticky tak fouls and offensive oriented officiating.

I also find it curious that between the years of 2000-2013, we had TWO drivers, Carl Edwards in 08, and Gordon in 07, finish with at least 27 top 10s. Since 2014 (gen 6 car), it's happened every season. And in more recent seasons (aero package), multiple drivers.

We hear drivers complain about air bubbles, how easy it is to drive the car, etc.

And through their ridiculous fan "surveys", try to create biased data that says fans want Daytona at every track.

Unfortunately, they've convinced some naive fans, and plenty of new fans that speedway racing is wide open 180mph. Most of us, or at least I epitomize NASCAR racing as mile and a half to 2 mile speedway racing where the drivers race tirewear and little grip in the corners to make speed in ways that allows good handling to overcome raw speed some times.

To me, THATS the nascar I grew up on. short tracks and super speedways are treats. Nascar has always been about speedway racing with cars that don't want to turn when a driver mashes the gas pedal at apex, or want to turn too much, and NASCAR is doing everything they can to convince fans that this is what they want, when it isn't about the fans or drivers.

NASCAR will always be 850hp. Im rewatching old seasons, recently finished Atlanta 09 (won by Kahne) and watching them rip down the backstretch feels like an entire different series.

It's about commercialism and entertainment. There's no such thing as entirely authentic competition across any discipline on television, other than track and field, imo.

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Formerjackman said:
I have to agree that for as long as NASCAR fought letting the teams have ANY data, their own or otherwise during during the actual event itself, I am more than a little surprised that all of this data is allowed to be collected and distributed to everyone. I think ONE of the reasons they a do it is to try to prevent any one team from getting too much of an advantage in certain areas by letting EVERYONE know where they are making their lap times, and figure it will help keep the competition close. I also wouldn't be surprised if NASCAR felt the teams were spending too much time and money trying to collect that data in more clandestine ways (look at all the pictures of other cars they take) and figured it would be cheaper to just give out all of that data. Personally, I would be in favor of removing ALL the data and letting the teams figure this stuff out for themselves. At the top level of ANY sport, I generally don't agree with ANYTHING that makes it EASIER (as in less skill level) to compete. It's why I am so opposed to things like single lug wheels, sequential shifters, digital dashes etc.
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I totally agree with this. What I hate is that the data is being used to even the playing field even when it comes to talent. Case in point, Denny was unique at Martinsville....now, not so much. Why? Because his competitors have access to what he is doing (and, of course, brake technology enters into this). The point being that I don't like that technology has done this. I love listening to Gabehart, Hamlin, and Lambert on the radio, but not so much when all Gabehart is doing is breaking down what others are doing. Sometimes I wonder if this is due to the lack of practice. What was once uncovered in practice laps now needs to be found on the SMT?
 
jaqua19 said:
This is it.

And there's plenty of evidence to support it with a bit of critical thinking.

1. Look at the entire sports world. It's all geared moreso towards entertainment and money.

The NFL, the MLB all push offense.

The NBA literally created defensive rules that favor offensive perimeter players so we get more scoring.

Nascar creating an aero/money dependent package is just their version of ticky tak fouls and offensive oriented officiating.

I also find it curious that between the years of 2000-2013, we had TWO drivers, Carl Edwards in 08, and Gordon in 07, finish with at least 27 top 10s. Since 2014 (gen 6 car), it's happened every season. And in more recent seasons (aero package), multiple drivers.

We hear drivers complain about air bubbles, how easy it is to drive the car, etc.

And through their ridiculous fan "surveys", try to create biased data that says fans want Daytona at every track.

Unfortunately, they've convinced some naive fans, and plenty of new fans that speedway racing is wide open 180mph. Most of us, or at least I epitomize NASCAR racing as mile and a half to 2 mile speedway racing where the drivers race tirewear and little grip in the corners to make speed in ways that allows good handling to overcome raw speed some times.

To me, THATS the nascar I grew up on. short tracks and super speedways are treats. Nascar has always been about speedway racing with cars that don't want to turn when a driver mashes the gas pedal at apex, or want to turn too much, and NASCAR is doing everything they can to convince fans that this is what they want, when it isn't about the fans or drivers.

NASCAR will always be 850hp. Im rewatching old seasons, recently finished Atlanta 09 (won by Kahne) and watching them rip down the backstretch feels like an entire different series.

It's about commercialism and entertainment. There's no such thing as entirely authentic competition across any discipline on television, other than track and field, imo.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
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Its always been about entertainment, from day one.
 
Revman said:
I totally agree with this. What I hate is that the data is being used to even the playing field even when it comes to talent. Case in point, Denny was unique at Martinsville....now, not so much. Why? Because his competitors have access to what he is doing (and, of course, brake technology enters into this).
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I mean, maybe. He still had to race against guys like Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon. Then guys like Kyle Busch, Chase Elliott, Joey Logano and MTJ found their way around Martinsville - and Kyle Busch has said that he learned Martinsville from Denny Hamlin. Plus the cars and packages are changing. The SMT data sharing has only been here since when, 2018? I don’t think it’s that big of a player... yet. It has the potential to lower competition gaps. The drivers still have to go out a mimic the data, which is probably much harder to do than to just drive the car by feel.
 
Spotter22 said:
They dont know what shock, spring, swaybar, camber,caster,brake bias, upper control arms, lower control arms, how much bite each other is running.
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Throttle and brake traces... Steering input, that's about it with SMT.

Setup notes is a different game. All drivers have their own style of driving and how they do things, so I see SMT as nothing more than an graph that tell you how guys are going doing what they are doing. At most you'll hear, "Hey, our teammate is doing this into corner entry. If you apply less/more brake at a later or earlier point, apply more or less wheel at x point, etc." Crew chiefs all give different feedback trying to mimic faster teammates or company cars and such.

It's helpful, but it's not like giving setup notes. Also even setups notes will only be so effective due to drivers style of driving. Some drive more off the right-rear or right-front, etc.

I really did enjoy watching the detailed information in Raceview, but I like deciphering things like that. Hell, you already know all of this, I apologize for rambling.
 
Spotter22 said:
Its always been about entertainment, from day one.
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Yeah. I don't think this data is necessarily as revealing as Rev may be wondering. It may reveal some insight about the goal, but the team still need to figure out ways if the car driving in a way that the driver can utilize that data

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Kiante said:
Throttle and brake traces... Steering input, that's about it with SMT.

Setup notes is a different game. All drivers have their own style of driving and how they do things, so I see SMT as nothing more than an graph that tell you how guys are going doing what they are doing. At most you'll hear, "Hey, our teammate is doing this into corner entry. If you apply less/more brake at a later or earlier point, apply more or less wheel at x point, etc." Crew chiefs all give different feedback trying to mimic faster teammates or company cars and such.

It's helpful, but it's not like giving setup notes. Also even setups notes will only be so effective due to drivers style of driving. Some drive more off the right-rear or right-front, etc.

I really did enjoy watching the detailed information in Raceview, but I like deciphering things like that. Hell, you already know all of this, I apologize for rambling.
Click to expand...
Its all good bud.
 
I agree with the premise of the original post. Making this data available to everyone does water down the best driver skills and team setup skills. And don't try to tell me having such data isn't important. I remember a huge intra-team scandal a few years ago when Lewis Hamilton (IIRC) tweeted out a graph of traces. He was widely criticized for revealing proprietary data.

The problem is that the big-money teams were *already* spending tons of dollars to collect partial data on their competitors, while other teams couldn't afford the cost and thus were disadvantaged. For example, speed, RPM, and throttle traces were being approximated from computer programs that analyzed the soundtracks from in-car cameras.

The TV networks wanted some basic real-time telemetry, and Nascar wanted to give it to them to enhance the broadcast. Given that a few rich teams were able to get what they wanted at substantial cost, Nascar decided to make it available to all teams at zero cost. This makes sense to me, unless there is some way to prevent all teams from having this data (while TV can still get what they need).
 
jaqua19 said:
Yeah. I don't think this data is necessarily as revealing as Rev may be wondering. It may reveal some insight about the goal, but the teams still need to figure out ways to get the car driving in a way so that the driver can utilize that data

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Talk to text butchered this originally.

Fixed.

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