so what is going to be the new points system?

[virtualbalboa]

I miss the days when the Truck series was the home of senior journeymen instead of a development step. I'd love to see it restricted to drivers with a minimum of five years Cup or second-tier experience. I don't think we'll see the Trucks return to barnstorming smaller tracks; TV likes to have them at the same tracks as Cup since that where the coverage assets are already deployed.

I have no idea how to feel about any of this these days. On one hand I understand the notion of why the Trucks should be a support series and that making them a true standalone didn't really succeed. This is a racing series which hasn't effectively changed the chassis specs in 30 years and you could hang a new body on a roller from 1996 and hit the track (after some safety modifications, of course). On the other hand, things are different now in terms of how many people own sedans (nearly none) vs. how many own SUVs and trucks (virtually everyone), how many people are watching Grand National/O'Reilly, how many people are watching NASCAR period, all that. And ultimately, you gotta spend a little to make a little. What has NASCAR actually invested in the Truck Series? Not "what have manufacturers joining the series invested in the Truck Series?" but NASCAR. It ain't all that much and it's apparent.

 

[StandOnIt]

I miss the days when the Truck series was the home of senior journeymen instead of a development step. I'd love to see it restricted to drivers with a minimum of five years Cup or second-tier experience. I don't think we'll see the Trucks return to barnstorming smaller tracks; TV likes to have them at the same tracks as Cup since that where the coverage assets are already deployed.

When was that exactly? Guys like Kurt Busch and Greg Biffle were terrorizing the Truck series back in the 90's. Of course they didn't stay in the series long, a precursor of what it now the norm of talent finds it's own level for the most part.
Economics says that sponsors want their name on trucks running in the front of the pack, older or younger doesn't matter so much if the talent is there.
An older guy like Dario is going to run at Long Beach and you were quick to point out his record in Nascar. I think you answered your own question.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

Economics says that sponsors want their name on trucks running in the front of the pack, older or younger doesn't matter so much if the talent is there.

I'm just pipe-dreaming.

An older guy like Dario is going to run at Long Beach and you were quick to point out his record in Nascar. I think you answered your own question.

Dario doesn't have one year of experience in Cup or Busch, much less five.

 

[StandOnIt]

I'm just pipe-dreaming.

Dario doesn't have one year of experience in Cup or Busch, much less five.

I think you missed the fact that the talent level in the Truck series isn't what it used to be. When a 4 time Indy champion, 3 time 500 winner bombs out in the Truck series. Kyle Busch is going to take a run at it in the Truck series soon when Brexton gets old enough. That should be a good indicator.

 

[Naitch]

I agree with all of this and I think ultimately our disagreement is just one of nuance and language. We fundamentally believe exactly the same thing (which in fairness; what we believe is objective reality).

Imagine if The France Family had taken, I dunno, half the money they do now from the media deal off the top and instead of putting it in their pockets or investing it in things completely unrelated to NASCAR, they put it into the sport again. That's over $50 million a year now. Not earth shattering sums or anything, but probably multiples of the budget that the Lucas Oil Late Models runs under for example. Instead ARCA still pays 10K to win and we wonder why there's nowhere for older drivers to go or why the development ladder is so jacked up.

There's a reason why every other sports sanctioning body invests in youth sports to some degree. If you want to find the best talent, you have to create an environment where it can grow and thrive. There are valid criticisms about things like youth hockey and baseball being too prohibitively expensive for middle class families, but it pales in comparison to where we are with stock car racing.

To @StandOnIt's point, open wheel dirt does require some race craft, but I would argue that the ability to run a heavy stock car (even at the late model level) is different than a much lighter sprint car. Stock cars, whether on dirt or asphalt, are clunky, heavy and require different mechanics to keep straight and pointed in the right direction. There are certain things that you can only learn by driving a stock car. How do you set up a pass? How do you preserve your stuff so you're there at the end? There has been an overall decline in race craft over the last couple of decades and I think it traces to the lack of a real development ladder for drivers to learn that. Drivers today are more aggressive, have less patience, and are prone to overdriving. Even Kyle Larson, who is one of the best raw talents the sport has ever seen, frequently falls victim to this.

There's also something to be said about learning these things from the perspective of leading a race, which is where I think NASCAR massively ****** up by allowing 2000s level Buschwacking to go on as long as it did. I don't buy the argument that drivers necessarily learn more by racing against more experienced Cup guys. You might learn more about how to race in traffic, which is valuable, but it does nothing to teach you the finer points of being a leader. How do you control a restart? How do you pick your way through lapped traffic? How do you set up a pass for a win? When it was Cup guys battling amongst themselves for wins, a whole generation was stuck in their shadow. The balance we have now is fine. Grand National guys do benefit from racing with Cup guys and Cup guys do bring eyes (which means dollars) to the lower level series, but when they take up a third to half the field, it's a problem.

I've said this before here, but I don't think it helps when guys like Larson are out here promoting open wheel dirt. We need eyes on our grassroots. We need sponsors showing up to Friday night late model races. Dale Jr. does a great job but he's only one guy. There's a lot of raw talent out there that will never be found because they don't have the equipment to keep moving up.

 

[StandOnIt]

I've said this before here, but I don't think it helps when guys like Larson are out here promoting open wheel dirt. We need eyes on our grassroots. We need sponsors showing up to Friday night late model races. Dale Jr. does a great job but he's only one guy. There's a lot of raw talent out there that will never be found because they don't have the equipment to keep moving up.

I have no idea your version of grass roots when you say we. If you look at the numbers of "grass roots" racing, who is doing it and what kind it is, unless you have a really large pair of blinders on, getting into dirt racing and having facilities to do so is far more easy and economical to do and has way more fans spread out all over the U.S.A. than any other form of racing. There are upwards of 700 to 800 dirt tracks in the U.S. according to the National Speedway directory.

 

[Naitch]

I have no idea your version of grass roots when you say we. If you look at the numbers of "grass roots" racing, who is doing it and what kind it is, unless you have a really large pair of blinders on, getting into dirt racing and having facilities to do so is far more easy and economical to do and has way more fans spread out all over the U.S.A. than any other form of racing. There are upwards of 700 to 800 dirt tracks in the U.S.

I don't think it's going out on a limb to say that open wheel dirt is not the grassroots of stock car racing, a related but different discipline. We need more support for dirt and asphalt late model racing. You can learn transferable skills in open wheel dirt but for those of us who like racing of the four fendered variety, the options are fairly limited.

 

[StandOnIt]

I don't think it's going out on a limb to say that open wheel dirt is not the grassroots of stock car racing, a related but different discipline. We need more support for dirt and asphalt late model racing. You can learn transferable skills in open wheel dirt but for those of us who like racing of the four fendered variety, the options are fairly limited.

In that case I agree. Pavement ovals have around half as many tracks as dirt racing has. Considering that Larson, Bell, Reddick, Blaney and Briscoe all came from the dirt ranks, I do think you protest too much about car control problems that dirt racers have in moving to pavement lol.

 

[StandOnIt]

A large part of the "grass roots" pavement problem is that they don't have a car they can go anywhere with it and race and be legal. They have so many sub models of late models racing on down, they can't interchange them from track to track, series to series.
Another problem that will never be solved is the surface. Because the surface it is so uniform from track to track, the car tuning is more important than the driver input in many cases.

 

[virtualbalboa]

There's a reason why every other sports sanctioning body invests in youth sports to some degree. If you want to find the best talent, you have to create an environment where it can grow and thrive. There are valid criticisms about things like youth hockey and baseball being too prohibitively expensive for middle class families, but it pales in comparison to where we are with stock car racing.

Agreed and agreed that NASCAR can and should do more.

To @StandOnIt's point, open wheel dirt does require some race craft, but I would argue that the ability to run a heavy stock car (even at the late model level) is different than a much lighter sprint car. Stock cars, whether on dirt or asphalt, are clunky, heavy and require different mechanics to keep straight and pointed in the right direction. There are certain things that you can only learn by driving a stock car. How do you set up a pass? How do you preserve your stuff so you're there at the end? There has been an overall decline in race craft over the last couple of decades and I think it traces to the lack of a real development ladder for drivers to learn that. Drivers today are more aggressive, have less patience, and are prone to overdriving. Even Kyle Larson, who is one of the best raw talents the sport has ever seen, frequently falls victim to this.

My only concern here is that this at least gives the appearance that you are citing dirt racing as responsible for the attitude of the drivers. I would argue that it is just a result of them being extremely young and generally inexperienced. You have drivers who basically never wind up in a position where they are asked to preserve equipment whether it be karts, bandoleros, legends, or late models and they never learn to. Dirt has aggression because of race distance. I've seen literal children behind the wheel of late models driving them in exactly the fashion you would expect a child to drive a full size race car.

There's also something to be said about learning these things from the perspective of leading a race, which is where I think NASCAR massively ****** up by allowing 2000s level Buschwacking to go on as long as it did. I don't buy the argument that drivers necessarily learn more by racing against more experienced Cup guys. You might learn more about how to race in traffic, which is valuable, but it does nothing to teach you the finer points of being a leader. How do you control a restart? How do you pick your way through lapped traffic? How do you set up a pass for a win? When it was Cup guys battling amongst themselves for wins, a whole generation was stuck in their shadow. The balance we have now is fine. Grand National guys do benefit from racing with Cup guys and Cup guys do bring eyes (which means dollars) to the lower level series, but when they take up a third to half the field, it's a problem.

Here's a thought: not saying I'm right or anything, but it's a thought. Here's the Rookie of the Year winners from 1999-2007 (basically the commercial peak):

Every single one of them won multiple races. 4 of them won Cup titles: Hamlin and Kahne have certainly been competitive for them an in a full points system maybe would have been champ. Now how about the next few years?

There are certainly very good names here on the list and potentially future champions too. But there's also some people who were very soon out of full time rides and were never particularly competitive.

I've said this before here, but I don't think it helps when guys like Larson are out here promoting open wheel dirt. We need eyes on our grassroots. We need sponsors showing up to Friday night late model races. Dale Jr. does a great job but he's only one guy. There's a lot of raw talent out there that will never be found because they don't have the equipment to keep moving up.

Well, Larson doesn't have late model roots. If NASCAR wants to be the pinnacle of American motorsports, then it's going to have diverse backgrounds for the drivers. That's just how it goes. I don't ever recall this even being a thing that was a concern in history. You want Kyle Larson to race stock cars? Pay him to race stock cars.

 

[virtualbalboa]

A large part of the "grass roots" pavement problem is that they don't have a car they can go anywhere with it and race and be legal. They have so many sub models of late models racing on down, they can't interchange them from track to track, series to series.

If only there was a large sanctioning body, perhaps one which is in charge of major league stock car racing!

 

[StandOnIt]

If only there was a large sanctioning body, perhaps one which is in charge of major league stock car racing!

Or at least get their stuff together and agree on certain classes.

 

[virtualbalboa]

Or at least get their stuff together and agree on certain classes.

They've been given decades and the best they could do was the template body. NASCAR can wait another 75 years if they want, though by then, who knows what would even be left.

 

[StandOnIt]

They've been given decades and the best they could do was the template body. NASCAR can wait another 75 years if they want, though by then, who knows what would even be left.

I'm not talking about Nascar in this case. There are classes of cars running 70's and 80's Monte Carlo bodies and calling them street stocks, and others running just the front A arms, and tube chassis and metal bodies and calling theirs street stocks and they race the same night on tracks a few miles apart. Those are the problems I am speaking of in comparison to the lower dirt racing classes that are pretty uniform across the U.S.
You can go buy a micro Outlaw dirt car in California and take it cross country and race it no problem.

 

[virtualbalboa]

I'm not talking about Nascar in this case. There are classes of cars running 70's and 80's Monte Carlo bodies and calling them street stocks, and others running just the front A arms, and tube chassis and metal bodies and calling theirs street stocks and they race the same night on tracks a few miles apart. Those are the problems I am speaking of in comparison to the lower dirt racing classes that are pretty uniform across the U.S.
You can go buy a micro Outlaw dirt car in California and take it cross country and race it no problem.

Creep of classes isn't anything new or isolated to dirt racing and cuts to a different issue (using the pits as a revenue generator for oval tracks). Again, NASCAR is NASCAR. If they want to rethink the way they are interacting with the local tracks and how they are overseeing or not overseeing weekly racing in this country, they can and I think it would be in our collective best interests. It might mean that Ben Kennedy has to wait an additional 6 months on delivery of a yacht though, so I know that might be a deal breaker.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

Stock cars, whether on dirt or asphalt, are clunky, heavy and require different mechanics to keep straight and pointed in the right direction. There are certain things that you can only learn by driving a stock car. How do you set up a pass? How do you preserve your stuff so you're there at the end?

Respectfully, can't a lot of that now be learned in simulation? Obviously it isn't a total replacement for on-track experience but from what I've heard over the last five years, it goes a long way to bridging the cap between top tier dirt and Truck/Busch.

 

[StandOnIt]

Respectfully, can't a lot of that now be learned in simulation? Obviously it isn't a total replacement for on-track experience but from what I've heard over the last five years, it goes a long way to bridging the cap between top tier dirt and Truck/Busch.

Yeah for sure. They use simulators in the Trucks and O'Reilly also. Corey Day said he was spending a lot of time on the simulator. I think if people are paying attention this year in O'Reilly watching Corey Day's first full year, I think you will see a competitive driver in a very short time being successful on the pavement as well as the dirt. Sure he has more to learn. At 20 he is still learning on any track he races on. So far 11 races in the O'Reilly series with a top 5 and 2 top 10's. Not bad for a complete green rookie.

 

[donthaveanickname]

I miss the days when the Truck series was the home of senior journeymen instead of a development step. I'd love to see it restricted to drivers with a minimum of five years Cup or second-tier experience. I don't think we'll see the Trucks return to barnstorming smaller tracks; TV likes to have them at the same tracks as Cup since that where the coverage assets are already deployed.

Isn't it becoming more of a series for journeyman drivers again?
Haley is returning to trucks this year after several years in Cup, Hemric is a former Cup driver, Eckes is coming back from Xfinity as well.
Friesen and Enfinger are veteran truck drivers. Even some younger drivers like Ankrum and Gray have been in the series for many years.

 

[Spotter22]

I would do the first 26 as regular points, then the top 16 race regular points till the end. No win and you're in.

The points system would be the Latford system of 1975

 

[Speedbowl14]

To decide, NASCAR is probably going to have some blind kid throw a featherless dart at a spinning wheel and wherever it lands, that will be your champion points format.