So you want to try starting a team in the truck series...

[aunty dive]

Quite the difference in ride height.....

The ride height is nearly identical. The difference is that one car is fitted with aerodynamic appendages that the other doesn't have.

 

[aunty dive]

That the race where Erik Jones beat Kyle Busch and his Sprint Cup superteam? Or the race where hometown racer Johanna Long beat Landon Cassill for the win?

The reference is to high dollar teams showing up with 2 fresh cars in a Cup transporter ready to go against people with far fewer resources. No different than any other series anywhere.

There's no need to be smug about it.

 

[aunty dive]

Drivers and crew chiefs talk about aerodynamics at Martinsville and Bristol for ****'s sake. When aerodynamics matter on a half mile track with a flat ******* surface, we have a problem.

They talk about what they know.

Aerodynamics are in play everywhere, including 5 Flags.

 

[HoneyBadger]

The reference is to high dollar teams showing up with 2 fresh cars in a Cup transporter ready to go against people with far fewer resources. No different than any other series anywhere.

There's no need to be smug about it.

I've snarked in the past about that being the race where teams spend $30,000 for a shot at $20,000.

Remember who you're talking to when talking about short track racing. It's got its fair share of cost control problems as well. Biggest problem there, just like in NASCAR, is that short tracks don't do anything to try to cut costs because, when they do, the rich people complain about it.

 

[HoneyBadger]

They talk about what they know.

Aerodynamics are in play everywhere, including 5 Flags.

In a contact sport, a car is knocked out of contention if they touch another car on track because a small dent will cost them a tenth of a second per lap because of aerodynamics. That's absurd and you know it.

Get the cars off the ground and cut the spoilers off that way this aerodynamic crap doesn't matter as much.

 

[aunty dive]

I've snarked in the past about that being the race where teams spend $30,000 for a shot at $20,000.

Remember who you're talking to when talking about short track racing. It's got its fair share of cost control problems as well. Biggest problem there, just like in NASCAR, is that short tracks don't do anything to try to cut costs because, when they do, the rich people complain about it.

I spent 20 years racing on short tracks. Try to remember that.

It appears that we actually agree on this issue ... which has never changed over decades. Nor will it.

 

[HoneyBadger]

I spent 20 years racing on short tracks. Try to remember that.

It appears that we actually agree on this issue ... which has never changed over decades. Nor will it.

I think tracks should quit catering to the guys with money when it comes to rules just like NASCAR should quit catering to the superteams. Penske, Gibbs, Roush and Hendrick are still gonna be at the races, nothing changes that.

In a time where the economy has taken a hit, the cost of racing went up because people who could afford it drove it up. And now, many of those guys can't afford it anymore.

 

[aunty dive]

In a contact sport, a car is knocked out of contention if they touch another car on track because a small dent will cost them a tenth of a second per lap because of aerodynamics. That's absurd and you know it.

Get the cars off the ground and cut the spoilers off that way this aerodynamic crap doesn't matter as much.

I didn't say it isn't absurd.

In 1976, taping the hood / front fender seams and half of the grille opening on a car that was the then equivalent of one of today's top level super late models was worth 3 - 4 tenths in qualifying at Evergreen Speedway in Washington state. 5/8 mile.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[aunty dive]

I think tracks should quit catering to the guys with money when it comes to rules just like NASCAR should quit catering to the superteams. Penske, Gibbs, Roush and Hendrick are still gonna be at the races, nothing changes that.

In a time where the economy has taken a hit, the cost of racing went up because people who could afford it drove it up. And now, many of those guys can't afford it anymore.

Good ideas.

What should sanctioning bodies do ensure that high dollar runners aren't catered to?

 

[HoneyBadger]

Good ideas.

What should sanctioning bodies do ensure that high dollar runners aren't catered to?

Implement cost cutting measures and stick with them. Every time NASCAR does this, the high dollar teams complain until they're done away with.

On the short track level, if tracks stuck to their guns, the big money teams would suck it up. They already are being forced to here, since South Boston put together an extremely competitive rules package.

 

[2 Sweet]

The ride height is nearly identical. The difference is that one car is fitted with aerodynamic appendages that the other doesn't have.

Yep. That's what I said. Err meant.

I don't sometimes use words good.

 

[LewTheShoe]

Implement cost cutting measures and stick with them. Every time NASCAR does this, the high dollar teams complain until they're done away with.

You can b!tch about aerodynamics like all the other Time Machine Whiners on here, but the laws of physics, like the laws of economics, cannot be repealed. And race teams cannot be forced to un-learn things once they have learned them. After going the wrong way for quite some time, Nascar is finally on the right path for managing aerodynamics, I believe. Cup racing is dramatically improved this year, and further improvements seem to be in the pipeline.

Without good racing, Nascar has nothing over the long term. I'm interested to hear your list of specific, actionable cost cutting measures that Nascar should implement that will enhance the racing product and improve the economics of the teams.

 

[ReturnTrip]

When HMS dropped their truck and busch programs I stopped watching both series. Maybe Rick was discouraged that Jeff and Jimmie weren't pathetic enough to drive in the minor leagues like Kyle.

 

[HoneyBadger]

You can b!tch about aerodynamics like all the other Time Machine Whiners on here, but the laws of physics, like the laws of economics, cannot be repealed. And race teams cannot be forced to un-learn things once they have learned them. After going the wrong way for quite some time, Nascar is finally on the right path for managing aerodynamics, I believe. Cup racing is dramatically improved this year, and further improvements seem to be in the pipeline.

Without good racing, Nascar has nothing over the long term. I'm interested to hear your list of specific, actionable cost cutting measures that Nascar should implement that will enhance the racing product and improve the economics of the teams.

For XFINITY and Trucks ... Run at short tracks and have halfway breaks instead of live pit stops.

 

[Team Penske]

In the past when a driver was interviewed I listened to his opinion.

Drivers today don't have an opinion ( maybe Brad which is refreshing) but most of their time is spent listing all their sponsors and thanking their teams for all their hard work.

TV is killing the sport and the show producers know nothing.

 

[aunty dive]

For XFINITY and Trucks ... Run at short tracks and have halfway breaks instead of live pit stops.

Would short tracks pay purses equal to those paid by tracks on the current schedule?

Cost cutting is effective if they do. Meaningless if they don't. We both know the answer to my question.

 

[LewTheShoe]

For XFINITY and Trucks ... Run at short tracks and have halfway breaks instead of live pit stops.

Would short tracks pay purses equal to those paid by tracks on the current schedule?

Cost cutting is effective if they do. Meaningless if they don't. We both know the answer to my question.

I'd enjoy a separate identity for these series, but there is also the question of TV. Producing a quality broadcast at a companion event costs relatively little compared to a stand alone event. And TV money is an important component of the purses and points funds in both Xfinity and Trucks.

Xfinity is the 2nd leading motor racing series in America in terms of TV audience. Other than the Indy 500 itself, Xfinity gets about double the ratings, plus about double the number of races. Not sure halftime breaks would be good for such a major league event. I don't claim to know... but not convinced on that.

I can imagine the uproar on social media the first time a driver is injured hitting a non-SAFER wall.

Andy, is the shift away from stand alone short track events something that happened because "the high dollar teams complain until they're done away with?"

 

[Zerkfitting]

The article is brutally honest. Driver Tommy Martin expressed himself very well. His comment that it isn't a fair sport (due to the costs) hit the mark.

 

[Acs]

The saddest thing is, he got wrecked out the weekend after writing this article. That's not going to help his finances.

 

[ted@economy]

The charters are worth millions.

Never having been a racer , I am at a loss to understand the economics of this . If I am a new owner and want to enter a car or truck , wouldn't I be better off investing my money in a great crew , crew chief and equipment rather than in a charter ? The fields aren't close to being filled , so making the race is not a problem. How is my money better off being spent on a charter?

 

[aunty dive]

Never having been a racer , I am at a loss to understand the economics of this . If I am a new owner and want to enter a car or truck , wouldn't I be better off investing my money in a great crew , crew chief and equipment rather than in a charter ? The fields aren't close to being filled , so making the race is not a problem. How is my money better off being spent on a charter?

Better to be a businessman than a racer in this case. The charter comes with a guaranteed revenue stream far in excess of what is available to teams without one. The prize money is no longer publicized for that reason.

If you wanted to start up and succeed, you'll need the great crew, crew chief and equipment and a charter.

 

[LewTheShoe]

^ Agree with Auntie. My guess is that Wood Bros. did not invest in a charter because they are unsure of future full time participation, after their Blaney/Penske deal ends.

 

[Acs]

Didn't the two former MWR charters go for around 5 mil each? That was with 2 ready buyers and 2 charters on the open market. This offseason, we have FRR and likely Penske looking to expand and no easy charters on the market. I don't see any way these charters will decline in value

 

[ted@economy]

I thought the guaranteed starting spot was worth something , but I guess that wasn't the main thing .

 

[LewTheShoe]

I thought the guaranteed starting spot was worth something , but I guess that wasn't the main thing .

That was never the main thing, although many news stories focused on the guaranteed starting spots. The main thing was always the distribution of cash.

 

[jws926]

^ Agree with Auntie. My guess is that Wood Bros. did not invest in a charter because they are unsure of future full time participation, after their Blaney/Penske deal ends.

They were not allowed to get a Charter, Charters were only available to teams that ran full time in the last three years, so if Wood Brothers Racing runs full time in 2017/18( which I think they are planning on) , they will be eligible for a charter.

 

[ted@economy]

That was never the main thing, although many news stories focused on the guaranteed starting spots. The main thing was always the distribution of cash.

So that's the reason they can't get full fields anymore ? Not enough money left in the pot for back markers? Sweet!

 

[aunty dive]

They were not allowed to get a Charter, Charters were only available to teams that ran full time in the last three years, so if Wood Brothers Racing runs full time in 2017/18( which I think they are planning on) , they will be eligible for a charter.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. There are 36 ... if they want one at some point, they'll have to find a seller.

 

[aunty dive]

So that's the reason they can't get full fields anymore ? Not enough money left in the pot for back markers? Sweet!

There are 4 spots available every week. They've been 1 car short three times this season.

 

[jws926]

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. There are 36 ... if they want one at some point, they'll have to find a seller.

Lets say poor choice of wording, in 2019, WBR will be an eligible team for a charter, so as of right now, yes, they will have to buy one from another team, unless NASCAR expands the charters to 37 teams.

 

[aunty dive]

Lets say poor choice of wording, in 2019, WBR will be an eligible team for a charter, so as of right now, yes, they will have to buy one from another team, unless NASCAR expands the charters to 37 teams.

They won't be eligible then either, unless someone forfeits for non-performance. The limit is 36.

 

[jws926]

They won't be eligible then either, unless someone forfeits for non-performance. The limit is 36.

We are saying the same thing but using different words, in 2019, WBR will be allowed to buy another teams charter if one wants to sell, or like you said, a team forfeits.

But going by the criteria used for the charters, they have to run at least three full time seasons, so, that means as of right now WBR is not eligible for a charter, but they would be in 2019( eligible doesnt mean guaranteed, and I think thats maybe what you thought I was saying)

Or maybe NASCAR will expand the charters to 37 teams, NASCAR is always changing things, so right now, nothing is written in stone.

 

[aunty dive]

We are saying the same thing but using different words, in 2019, WBR will be allowed to buy another teams charter if one wants to sell, or like you said, a team forfeits.

Or maybe NASCAR will expand the charters to 37 teams, NASCAR is always changing things, so right now, nothing is written in stone.

I'm afraid we're not. The Woods can buy an available charter right now, if they choose to do so. You and I could do the same thing. The key word is available ... there has to be a willing seller.

NASCAR cannot make 1 or more additional charters available while this agreement is in place without the agreement of the RTA. To do so would reduce the incomes of the original 36 in order to pay the larger purses due a charter team.

Always follow the money.

 

[jws926]

I'm afraid we're not. The Woods can buy an available charter right now, if they choose to do so. You and I could do the same thing. The key word is available ... there has to be a willing seller.

NASCAR cannot make 1 or more additional charters available while this agreement is in place without the agreement of the RTA. To do so would reduce the incomes of the original 36 in order to pay the larger purses due a charter team.

Always follow the money.

For some silly reason, I was under the impression they had to run three full season's before they could get one, my mistake.

 

[aunty dive]

For some silly reason, I was under the impression they had to run three full season's before they could get one, my mistake.

I read it all pretty carefully while it was happening.

These guys backed NASCAR into a corner and got their deal. They needed security and wanted more money and they got both, along with several other things. Not much different now than the ownership structures of other professional sports ... except that they don't own the sport itself. Yet.

 

[jws926]

I read it all pretty carefully while it was happening.

These guys backed NASCAR into a corner and got their deal. They needed security and wanted more money and they got both, along with several other things. Not much different now than the ownership structures of other professional sports ... except that they don't own the sport itself. Yet.

I kind of skipped the fine print if you will.

RTA's next move, owning part of NASCAR

 

[aunty dive]

Or all of it.

 

[Acs]

That wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen. Maybe they'll just go back to owning tracks.

 

[ted@economy]

Be interesting to speculate who , under today's charter system would be in Nascar today ...ie coming in with enough money to buy a charter . I think Carl Haas and Felix Sabates.

 

[LewTheShoe]

For some silly reason, I was under the impression they had to run three full season's before they could get one, my mistake.

Aunty is correct. For example, the 19 team and the 41 team did not meet the criteria to have charters awarded, but both teams purchased from a charter holder who wanted to sell. Neither team had even existed for three years.