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Happy29
Guest
Really? I thought I fought them in a glorious battle with swords, shields, evil monkeys, Al Gore and all the other whatnot. :lol:
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Brand X Guy
Guest
SliverRam posted he didn't even watch the race all his info came from his daddy. Do you use the type of language you've been using here in front of your kids? You say you are all for people getting knocked on their ass for running their mouth, if that were the case you would be spending alot of time on yours. I'm not going to waste my time anymore with a bullshiater like you.
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Happy29
Guest
Who, me ?
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Brand X Guy
Guest
No, That whole message was directed at SliverRam. Sorry I didn't make that clear!
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Happy29
Guest
Thats Ok, I apologize for that
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HardScrabble
Guest
Can't see how the pursuit of criminal charges is gonna change whether or not Kurt has to have surgery. Neither does having a criminal court assign "responsibility" help the situation. Jimmy Spencer is at worse convicted of either a misdemeanor or felony.......fine and/or time. End of story. No gain for anyone unless some vindictive bent makes someone happy about it.
Between Mr. Smith, Mr Roush, Mr. Busch, and Mr. Spencer this whole deal can be worked out without involving the foolishness and circus that any court action, criminal or civil, would have to generate.
I remain confident that despite some appearances to the contrary there is more than enough honor in these men's souls to settle this without legal intervention. And there is for dem sure enough money.
I am sure the media and some fans would love to see it go to court in some fashion. Apparently those folks have a slew of mud they have no idea what to do with, it would give 'em a chance to throw it around. Can easily live without that myself and so can racing.
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Brand X Guy
Guest
Can't see how the pursuit of criminal charges is gonna change whether or not Kurt has to have surgery. Neither does having a criminal court assign "responsibility" help the situation. Jimmy Spencer is at worse convicted of either a misdemeanor or felony.......fine and/or time. End of story. No gain for anyone unless some vindictive bent makes someone happy about it.
Between Mr. Smith, Mr Roush, Mr. Busch, and Mr. Spencer this whole deal can be worked out without involving the foolishness and circus that any court action, criminal or civil, would have to generate.
I remain confident that despite some appearances to the contrary there is more than enough honor in these men's souls to settle this without legal intervention. And there is for dem sure enough money.
I am sure the media and some fans would love to see it go to court in some fashion. Apparently those folks have a slew of mud they have no idea what to do with, it would give 'em a chance to throw it around. Can easily live without that myself and so can racing.[/b][/quote]
You are mixing things together, criminal charges are about a little thing we civilized people use to keep uncivilzed people in line. The responsibilty part would be in a civil suit.
That "foolishness and circus" you refer to is called Law and Order and I'm not talking about the TV show. I don't see any "honor" in what Jimmy did and for you to talk about other people having mud they want to throw around makes no sense whatever. What does that mean?
I'm sure if this was your son/brother/father that had been sucker punched by an out of control whatever you want to call him (not gonna call names here) for speaking their mind you would feel the same? So if I disagree with somebody it's the honorable thing to do to sucker punch them? And don't give me that at the track BS, the track isn't some kind of sovereign land.
H
HardScrabble
Guest
You are mixing things together, criminal charges are about a little thing we civilized people use to keep uncivilzed people in line. The responsibilty part would be in a civil suit.
That "foolishness and circus" you refer to is called Law and Order and I'm not talking about the TV show. I don't see any "honor" in what Jimmy did and for you to talk about other people having mud they want to throw around makes no sense whatever. What does that mean?
I'm sure if this was your son/brother/father that had been sucker punched by an out of control whatever you want to call him (not gonna call names here) for speaking their mind you would feel the same? So if I disagree with somebody it's the honorable thing to do to sucker punch them? And don't give me that at the track BS, the track isn't some kind of sovereign land. [/b][/quote]
Your quote was why shouldn't criminal charges be pursued. I answered you. How am I mixing things together if I only pursue your question?
Yes a civil would be all about the money. You are trying to take the homor statement and mix it with the act. I am using the honor statement to address what I feel should happen at this point. The paragraph in which honor is mentioned makes that pretty plain. In short, I believe these people can work this out both personally and monetarily without a courts intervention. And that course of action would be preferable.
If you firmly believe that today's civil courts are about law and order, you aren't keeping up with the suits being filed there. But you are entitled to that opinion, you may have it.
As to father, son, brother, or myself for that matter....been there done that. Never had to go to court over it.
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Brand X Guy
Guest
HardScrabble- Go back to page 2 and start over. I asked two questions and you lumped them together. You haven't answered one thing I have asked. Now you want to go into a discussion about the state of our civil courts? I have replied to you point by point, if you want to have a serious discussion on this you need to answer and not make broad generalizations.
Hey, Brand X Guy, have you ever heard of the saying 'Enough is Enough'???? 
I'm not real sure you want to go there.
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Brand X Guy
Guest
Read at the top of the page, I believe it says "Discussion Forums", does yours say that? If you've had enough I suggest you turn your computer off. What is wrong with asking someone for a straight answer? Why is that too much to ask? I'd rather talk about racing too, but people keep saying it's such a great thing that Jimmy punched Kurt in the face and it was the right thing to do. Everything should be forgotten. It's Kurt's fault, it's the media's fault, it's the court's fault and now it's my fault. Back at you!!!Originally posted by majestyx@Aug 21 2003, 11:47 AM
Hey, Brand X Guy, have you ever heard of the saying 'Enough is Enough'????
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HardScrabble
Guest
I will try to go a little slower.
I assume by two questions you mean:
1 - Why shouldn't criminal charges be pursued?
My answer was and is - Because it serves no purpose. A court returns either a guilty on some charge or a not guilty. Perhaps that would make some who feel that Jimmy is a criminal feel happy, I do not share, nor do I feel the racing community shares, that belief. Did he make a mistake..yes. He has admitted as much and has expressed remorse for his actions. Both parties should at this point be "man" (for lack of a better term, could just as easily use "woman" or "humanoid" or "civilized") enough to let it lie there. Neither is wholly innocent, neither is wholly guilty.
2 - If Busch has to have corrective surgery in the future why shouldn't Spencer be responsible?
My answer was and is - Again because it is not necessary. It was in the initial answer and still remains my belief that with the monetary resources at the disposal of Mr. Smith, Mr. Roush, Mr. Spencer, and Mr. Busch along with the honor that resides within their individual souls the ability to sit down and resolve any issue with responsibility without a civil court to intervene.
If there is anything vague or obscure or incomprehensible about any of these answers I will try to clarify them for you. If it simply is not an opinion you share, that is within you and does not concern the clarity of my answers nor refute their applicability. It means simply that you do not agree with me. I will try very hard to survive that.
I assume by two questions you mean:
1 - Why shouldn't criminal charges be pursued?
My answer was and is - Because it serves no purpose. A court returns either a guilty on some charge or a not guilty. Perhaps that would make some who feel that Jimmy is a criminal feel happy, I do not share, nor do I feel the racing community shares, that belief. Did he make a mistake..yes. He has admitted as much and has expressed remorse for his actions. Both parties should at this point be "man" (for lack of a better term, could just as easily use "woman" or "humanoid" or "civilized") enough to let it lie there. Neither is wholly innocent, neither is wholly guilty.
2 - If Busch has to have corrective surgery in the future why shouldn't Spencer be responsible?
My answer was and is - Again because it is not necessary. It was in the initial answer and still remains my belief that with the monetary resources at the disposal of Mr. Smith, Mr. Roush, Mr. Spencer, and Mr. Busch along with the honor that resides within their individual souls the ability to sit down and resolve any issue with responsibility without a civil court to intervene.
If there is anything vague or obscure or incomprehensible about any of these answers I will try to clarify them for you. If it simply is not an opinion you share, that is within you and does not concern the clarity of my answers nor refute their applicability. It means simply that you do not agree with me. I will try very hard to survive that.
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Brand X Guy
Guest
Sarcasm helps nothing.
1. Then why do we have criminal laws if they serve no pupose? When somebody breaks the law all they have to do is say their sorry and show remorse?
2.So since these people have money the law should not apply to them? After Jimmy's action it is rather late to talk about honor.
You still haven't responded to many of my points but it appears that you just want to use mindless rhetoric and sarcasm to cover up the fact that you think assault is alright if someone says something not to the other ones liking.
Whizzer
Gig'em
If I might interject a thought here, since I offered the opinion Busch should drop it (meaning criminal charges or pursuit of any kind through the court system) and Hardscrabble agreed. I don't need to defend Hardscabble, but he was defending my opinion too so in this case pick on him, pick on me.
Nothing, absolutely nothing, gets served by taking this puny little chickencrap incident into either a civil court or court of criminal law. Were it to be pursued, the out come will accomplish nothing, zero, zip, nada, zilch.
The only thing damaged here is Kurt Busch's pride and Jimmy Spencer's pocketbook and pride because of the suspension.
Brand X Guy, you might think Kurt is in the right to continue with civil or legal action, but I'll guarantee this will never get into any court and in the miniscule event it should, it will prove nothing and there will be no winner except the attorneys. NASCAR will have a say before it goes to court and they will do everything thay can to discourage pursuit of any outside action.
Sometimes things like these are better left alone. This is one of them. If anything good comes of this hopefully it will be both Spencer and Busch leaned a lesson and that is worth more than any court decision.
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HardScrabble
Guest
rhetoric
n 1: using language effectively to please or persuade
2: high flown style; excessive use of verbal ornamentation
[syn: grandiosity, magniloquence, grandiloquence]
3: loud and confused and empty talk; "mere rhetoric" [syn: palaver,
hot air, empty words, empty talk]
4: study of the technique and rules for using language
effectively (especially in public speaking)
Nice emotional appeal, unfortunately that is not what was said. Seems we are talking about one case in point here. IF we choose to make a general statement, then I would wager there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of incidents involving assault, battery, and such which are never brought into a court of law. So answer a queston. Why should this one be any different? And yet one other question. What benefit would be derived to the parties, the sport or the fans by having the case brought into a criminal court of law?
Where did anyone say since they have money the law does not apply? Certainly I never said any such thing. I merely point out that all the parties have enough money to cover any expenses which might be incurred without creating a hardship on any one of them. Therefore finances are not an obstacle to reaching an understanding.
As to Jimmy's honor......It is not in my experience that an action taken in anger, in the heat of battle so to speak, can speak fully to any honor which an individual may possess. I do not take the nature of Kurt's deliberate on track actions with Jimmy to speak fully of his honor either. In truth I have in the past and will continue in the future to respect both these drivers. No action here leads me to the conclusion that either of them is uncivilized, dishonorable, loutish, or unfit for continuing their career in racing.
It would be interesting to me to hear from you what benefits you foresee deriving from further pursuits of a civil nature. So far it appears that most of your answers to my points seem to be questions.
n 1: using language effectively to please or persuade
2: high flown style; excessive use of verbal ornamentation
[syn: grandiosity, magniloquence, grandiloquence]
3: loud and confused and empty talk; "mere rhetoric" [syn: palaver,
hot air, empty words, empty talk]
4: study of the technique and rules for using language
effectively (especially in public speaking)
Nice emotional appeal, unfortunately that is not what was said. Seems we are talking about one case in point here. IF we choose to make a general statement, then I would wager there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of incidents involving assault, battery, and such which are never brought into a court of law. So answer a queston. Why should this one be any different? And yet one other question. What benefit would be derived to the parties, the sport or the fans by having the case brought into a criminal court of law?
Where did anyone say since they have money the law does not apply? Certainly I never said any such thing. I merely point out that all the parties have enough money to cover any expenses which might be incurred without creating a hardship on any one of them. Therefore finances are not an obstacle to reaching an understanding.
As to Jimmy's honor......It is not in my experience that an action taken in anger, in the heat of battle so to speak, can speak fully to any honor which an individual may possess. I do not take the nature of Kurt's deliberate on track actions with Jimmy to speak fully of his honor either. In truth I have in the past and will continue in the future to respect both these drivers. No action here leads me to the conclusion that either of them is uncivilized, dishonorable, loutish, or unfit for continuing their career in racing.
It would be interesting to me to hear from you what benefits you foresee deriving from further pursuits of a civil nature. So far it appears that most of your answers to my points seem to be questions.
Whizzer
Gig'em
DARNIT HARDSCRABBLE, your use and description of the word, "rhetoric" takes all the impact (was there any?) out of my opinion. Guess I'll have to work on that a bit and come up with some hard facts on law, both civil and criminal, plus verbage. Maybe some case history, too.
Guess my political experience was no help at all.
RHETORIC !!! BAH !!!! HUMBUG !!!!!!
Guess my political experience was no help at all.
RHETORIC !!! BAH !!!! HUMBUG !!!!!!
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HardScrabble
Guest
Truth be told I really liked the "puny little chickencrap incident " bit of insight. LOL
And your are absolutely correct in your assessment that both Kurt and Jimmy are more embarassed by the whole deal and the attention paid to it than anything else. Betting here that in your time you have either been in or close enough to a "chickencrap incident" to understand the feeling. Been on the winning and losing side of a few myself.............Frankly would rather just forget them and move on.
And your are absolutely correct in your assessment that both Kurt and Jimmy are more embarassed by the whole deal and the attention paid to it than anything else. Betting here that in your time you have either been in or close enough to a "chickencrap incident" to understand the feeling. Been on the winning and losing side of a few myself.............Frankly would rather just forget them and move on.
Whizzer
Gig'em
I raced myself in the strictly stock class for a few years and then I started races for several years at a small track in Pennsylvania and one in New York State in the late fifties and early sixties.
During that time period, the starter was the sole controller of the race and stood on the track, not up in one of those little boxes out of the way. I saw first hand the anger that sometimes accompanies a call made by the starter, which may or may not have been favorable and then had to face the consequences of the decision, which led to some pretty interesting discussions and scenarios.
Of course, being a first class possessor of the ability deliver an appropriate measure of the discharge emanating from the north end of a male bovine species traveling in a southerly direction, after these disputes, I walked away on two feet almost every time. The real problems were when it got into the pit area for some infracton questioned by one or another driver. Sometimes, and this part I never understood, parentage was discussed. There were actually occasions when genealogy was brought into the discussion and I never figured out what that had to do with on-track confrontations.
But in a more serious vein, it was all fun. I got paid twenty dollars a week to start the races and when the races were over, walked into the office, picked up my check, walked out to the beer concession, and bought twenty dollars worth of beer and put it on the picnic tables. We partied until the beer ran out. At that time, twenty dollars bought a lot of Rheingold beer. Maybe this is why I walked away most of the time.
I found in racing as in everyday life and its' conflicts, give respect and get respect in return.
Speaking of Rheingold, do you remember the Rheingold girls ???
How did I ever get on this bit of nostalgia ???
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Brand X Guy
Guest
You made a post and I have been trying to understand it. I just can't understand dismissive attitude toward an assault on somebody. You're the one that's using emotions as an excuse because Jimmy was "angry". Well hell I bet O.J. was angry so what? You think I'm making too much of it and I think you're making too little of it I guess you win. ENOUGH!!
Except for the fact that whether charges are filed will be up to the Lenawee County District Attorney and not Kurt Busch and I never said there would be benefits from a civil suit.
Except for the fact that whether charges are filed will be up to the Lenawee County District Attorney and not Kurt Busch and I never said there would be benefits from a civil suit.
Ah, nostalgia! I love hearing it!!!! 
Between you (Whizzer), Harscrabble and boB, I love it! You all have been in situations and scenarios that only some of us dream about! Thank you all so much for sharing your experiences with us!
Between you (Whizzer), Harscrabble and boB, I love it! You all have been in situations and scenarios that only some of us dream about! Thank you all so much for sharing your experiences with us!
H
HardScrabble
Guest
I raced myself in the strictly stock class for a few years and then I started races for several years at a small track in Pennsylvania and one in New York State in the late fifties and early sixties.
During that time period, the starter was the sole controller of the race and stood on the track, not up in one of those little boxes out of the way. I saw first hand the anger that sometimes accompanies a call made by the starter, which may or may not have been favorable and then had to face the consequences of the decision, which led to some pretty interesting discussions and scenarios.
Of course, being a first class possessor of the ability deliver an appropriate measure of the discharge emanating from the north end of a male bovine species traveling in a southerly direction, after these disputes, I walked away on two feet almost every time. The real problems were when it got into the pit area for some infracton questioned by one or another driver. Sometimes, and this part I never understood, parentage was discussed. There were actually occasions when genealogy was brought into the discussion and I never figured out what that had to do with on-track confrontations.
But in a more serious vein, it was all fun. I got paid twenty dollars a week to start the races and when the races were over, walked into the office, picked up my check, walked out to the beer concession, and bought twenty dollars worth of beer and put it on the picnic tables. We partied until the beer ran out. At that time, twenty dollars bought a lot of Rheingold beer. Maybe this is why I walked away most of the time.
I found in racing as in everyday life and its' conflicts, give respect and get respect in return.
Speaking of Rheingold, do you remember the Rheingold girls ???
How did I ever get on this bit of nostalgia ???
[/b][/quote]Hey you're getting this rhetoric stuff down right pat!!! LMAO
Cool, so tell us all truthful now. Didja ever wave off a start just because a driver who had hissed ya off got a good jump?????? Inquiring minds want to know.........LOL
Don't reckon I caught the Rheingold Girls......maybe a northern series thing or maybe I just wasn't paying attention. I was down South during the formative years........I remember calling Mable for a Black Label though.
Gotta run.......see ya in the funny papers
Whizzer
Gig'em
The dismissive approach comes from years of experience in dealing with people and seeing how these things turn out. No one wins. Absolutely no one.
Just like this discussion, there is no winner. There are differences of opinion and they lead us to agree to disagree.
A few years under your belt and maybe the attitude will change, but for me, I get ill and fatigued over people taking every pissant thing to court for settlement and in this situation between Kurt and Jimmy, it is pretty low on the totem pole. That is where we disgree. As I said, law suits only make lawyers rich and they rarely settle anything or sooth the inner turmoil.
And speaking of OJ, wasn't he acquited??? Talk about justice. Even got away after going into civil court. So who won there??
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Brand X Guy
Guest
That last post was kind of at Whizzer and HardScrabble both.. I'm 44 but I see you (Whizzer) must have a few years on me. Tractors huh? I went to a tractor show a few years ago, couldn't believe how similar it was to a car show but with tractors instead. It was somewhat unreal but cool anyways.