Still Unanswered Questions

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fastfordfan

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Read It ALL Not Just One Sentenance

Hendrick Motorsports and crew chief Chad Knaus deserve to smile. They deserve to have the last laugh.
Now that they have won their appeal and NASCAR officials have been overruled and embarrassed by their own judge, Hendrick officials deserve to stick out their chests and fire back at those who have criticized them in the last month.
They can demand that their detractors eat a little crow after NASCAR Chief Appellate Officer John Middlebrook rescinded the six-week suspensions for Knaus and car chief Ron Malec and overturned Jimmie Johnson’s points penalty, penalties that were originally issued by NASCAR for questionable C-posts on Johnson’s car.
The Hendrick camp must feel vindicated after many – including myself – had written and said that the team had received the appropriate penalties for their alleged infractions at Daytona.
So while the crow is simmering in a pot, what are NASCAR fans supposed to think now?
In some ways, because Middlebrook didn’t explain his decision and still allowed Knaus’ $100,000 fine to stand, we really don’t know anything more than we knew three weeks ago when NASCAR initially issued the penalties.
We don’t know exactly why NASCAR took the C-posts from Johnson’s car. Did the posts, which run from the roof to the rear deck of the car, not appear to be the appropriate thickness? Did they bow out more than what NASCAR wanted?
And if Hendrick crewmen didn’t alter them during the offseason, why did they catch NASCAR’s attention at Daytona after being approved last year?
However it went down, it appears that Middlebrook felt NASCAR penalized Hendrick unjustly. Either the violation was far from egregious in his mind or he felt Hendrick didn’t get a fair shake.
It’s mind boggling how NASCAR could falter so badly. Sprint Cup Series Director John Darby and Vice President of Competition Robin Pemberton typically don’t mess this stuff up, especially to this extreme. If penalties get changed, they typically are reduced, not slashed into a meaningless fine.
Pemberton and Darby typically are so thorough that there are few, if any, cracks in their case. They simply don’t take car parts from competitors unless they are certain those parts violate the rules or have not been approved.
It remains hard to fathom that the C-posts were unaltered and yet had been previously approved by NASCAR.
If they were exactly the same, then Hendrick had a legitimate complaint. Then again, it seems so difficult to prove that Hendrick never altered them.
Included in Hendrick’s argument: NASCAR never placed templates on the car; and NASCAR allowed 20 other teams to alter their cars at Daytona to make them legal. Included in that 20 were three teams that were specifically allowed to grind on their C-posts.
Was this just a horrible lapse in judgment, or did a NASCAR official simply make a mistake?
Were NASCAR officials determined to nail Knaus after he was overheard telling Johnson to “crack” the back of his car if he won at Talladega last October so that it wouldn’t be too low in postrace inspection? Were NASCAR officials still so incensed over that – as some have speculated – that they didn’t give Knaus the same opportunity to correct the Daytona car so it would pass inspection?
That’s possible, but doubtful. Darby specifically said NASCAR officials used gauges to determine that the Hendrick team couldn’t just grind the C-posts to correct the problem, so the parts were confiscated. The rules cited specifically cover the contours of the car and don’t mention templates. It seemed that Darby had confidence in why the C-posts were confiscated.
Maybe what persuaded Middlebrook to allow the fine to stand but rescind the suspensions and points penalty was the fact that Hendrick and Knaus were not allowed to alter their car to make it legal while NASCAR allowed other teams to do so.
Or maybe Middlebrook felt that NASCAR never proved its case. Or that NASCAR gave Hendrick an indication that the car was legal through past inspections, and then suddenly changed its position.
Some in the anti-Hendrick camp will say that team owner Rick Hendrick had an inside advantage as a longtime friend of Middlebrook. But NASCAR President Mike Helton also is a longtime friend of Middlebrook. And why would NASCAR hire someone as its final judge who has an incentive to not just rule against the sanctioning body but to undermine its authority?
This ruling did more than just go against the sanctioning body. It embarrassed NASCAR and damaged its credibility in terms of issuing penalties for future violations.
So where does NASCAR go from here? If NASCAR officials don’t change how they inspect the C-posts and other areas of the car, then they are simply being arrogant and setting themselves up to lose more appeals. They need to make sure no doubt exists when they make a ruling in the future.
That is possible. Prosecutors lose cases all the time. Judges have opinions reversed. They move on and they go on to the next trial.
But they learn. And NASCAR needs to do just that.
Meanwhile, those who believe that NASCAR must continue to treat violators with an iron fist will have to wait until the next penalty and next appeal to see if NASCAR still operates that way.
After this process, it makes one wonder whether the Hendrick team just got lucky, was treated unfairly or was simply the unfortunate victim of a horrible mistake by NASCAR officials.
This ugly incident has cast some doubt on NASCAR and created questions about its credibility because now fans are mad at NASCAR for either treating Hendrick unfairly or for simply bungling the inspection process and not getting the alleged infraction and penalties right.
The bottom line is this: We don’t know if Knaus and Hendrick got what they deserved. And after the next penalty, we won’t know if the penalty fits the alleged crime.
The stunning reversal and the lack of explanation in this ruling just creates more confusion instead of delivering any clarity on what went wrong – either on the car or in the inspection process.
 
You about summed it up F3 well, for me anyway. There are a few of questions which bother me though.
(1) Since Helton and Middlebrook were friends NA__AR must have realized that Middle brook was also a friend of Hendrick. Why then did they allow him to hear the appeal?
(2) In the interest of ethics, why didn't Middlebrook recuse himself from hearing the case?
(3) What qualifications does Middlebrook have to hear technical cases such as this one? I don't see being a former suit at GM necessarily being a qualifier. Having him judge this case makes about as much sense as having me judge a dog show.
(4) Now that alledgedly, Hendrick has "Rubbed NA__AR's nose in it," could he be further penalized financially for actions damaging to NA__AR's credibility, such as the remarks made in the past by Newman, Kyle Busch and Hamlin which drew them fines?
 
Great read. While we may eventually get a few answers I doubt we'll ever know the whole story. But I will say that it's been interesting to see ask if this play out.
 
I hope we can put all this stupidity behind us. It really was a non issue . Nascar has every right to impose penalties as they see fit . They can amend the rule book as needed to cover each new infraction.Sorry but it has to be that way.Some old guy saw fit to reduce the penalty . Great .Over and done till next week.
 
My only issue with the whole thing is that the car was wither legal or illegal. I find the elimination of the points & suspension yet upholding the monetary fine to be quite confusing. I'm not sure what Middlebrook is saying in his findings. If everything is on the up and up with the car then why the fine at all? There wouldn't have been a fine if all was OK. Not really having any of the facts I'm under the assumption that the car was illegal but either not being placed under the template or never having hit the track was truly the deciding factor. Middlebrook sat in on the original appeal along with the other three. In the original appeal he does not get a vote, he only gets to hear/see the evidence. The other three that did get a vote all agreed with the original penalties. They all heard the same evidence. Why the different view? Kinda strange IMO yet this same sort of thing happens every day in jury rooms all across the country. We all look at these things differently.

I'm not buying the whole NASCAR's credibility is damaged idea. Most of the people that I've talked to about this simply feel that Chad got away with one as do I. I think NASCAR will continue to call it as they see it. I also think that it's only a matter of time and we'll all be seeing Chad in the same situation again. History has a way of repeating itself and Chad's no exception.
 
The fine and probation means that they brought something to the track that was a bit off.

The overturning of the points and suspension comes from the fact that they were the only team that wasn't allowed to fix what NASCAR didn't like.
 
My only issue with the whole thing is that the car was wither legal or illegal.

Exactly. Legal or illegal is just like being pregnant, you are or you aren't. No such thing as just a little bit.
If legal why was the fine upheld? If illegal why give the points back?
 
Exactly. Legal or illegal is just like being pregnant, you are or you aren't. No such thing as just a little bit.
If legal why was the fine upheld? If illegal why give the points back?


So once again someone is telling a lie
WHO?
 
Exactly. Legal or illegal is just like being pregnant, you are or you aren't. No such thing as just a little bit.
If legal why was the fine upheld? If illegal why give the points back?

Because that would be consistent with the recent past.

Everybody who thinks this wasn't fair, needs to look at how NASCAR handled the whole JGR oil pan deal.

They got just fined with money. NO points, NO CC suspension.

It's really that easy.

CONSISTENT RULING. Middlebrooke understand that I think.

AND BTW, when Darby said "I don't like the way that car looks", he scrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrewed the pooch.

Blame Darby if anybody.
 
It was a face saving move for both sides. na$car somehow knew the car was illegal or had reason to believe it was but screwed up and couldn't prove it. HMS knew that and pressed the issue to get the points and chad back. The 100k fine means nothing to HMS. Call it a plea bargain, pay the fine and charges are dropped.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it......:)

Next time look for the car to be taken back to the R & D center and dissected piece by piece.
 
Next time look for the car to be taken back to the R & D center and dissected piece by piece.

They did that before it left for Daytona. They didn't "find" anything until an old HMS employee tipped Darby off.

Or are you talking about nascar taking the "random" car back, being the 48?
 
It was a face saving move for both sides. na$car somehow knew the car was illegal or had reason to believe it was but screwed up and couldn't prove it. HMS knew that and pressed the issue to get the points and chad back. The 100k fine means nothing to HMS. Call it a plea bargain, pay the fine and charges are dropped.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it......:)

Next time look for the car to be taken back to the R & D center and dissected piece by piece.
 
There's no doubt the C-pillars where Illegal and modified by the team, those body panels are one of the ones that NASCAR says May not be Altered period dosent matter if the templates fit them or not.
Yes other teams where allowed to "Grind" on parts including c-pillars to make them fit the template thats nothing new happens every race. The 48 cars c-pillars where modified in such a way that grinding would not fix the issue and the template was'nt a factor in the modification, so NASCAR confiscated them and then set penaltys and fines.
Later after Hendrick appealed Middlebrook decided the Points protion of the penalty's was to severe and reduced the penalty's to monentary and probation. He Did Not say the modification was legal he just lowered the fine.

I don't see why everyone is making such an issue about this it's pretty clear what went on.

The Rumors I've heard, are that the panels where modified to allow venting of hi pressure areas under the rear window area.
 
The great thing about NASCAR is that there is always the next race. Something will happen this weekend that will cause this discussion to die.

Also it's supposed to rain all weekend and someone will blame NASCAR for it.
 
There's no doubt the C-pillars where Illegal and modified by the team, those body panels are one of the ones that NASCAR says May not be Altered period dosent matter if the templates fit them or not.

Really? Why were we, and NASCAR watching the 48 team grind and modify the NEW and LEGAL covers before putting them on the car? These aren't snap on pieces.

Just a big 'HUH?' on that one. o_O
 
Read Sig line see below

I knew I would be dissapointed trying to engage you in an intelligent conversation, but I figured I would give you a crack at it. I don't take it personally, because it's just the way you are. Say silly stuff. Get called on it. Act like a turd. :D
 
Because that would be consistent with the recent past.

Everybody who thinks this wasn't fair, needs to look at how NASCAR handled the whole JGR oil pan deal.

They got just fined with money. NO points, NO CC suspension.

It's really that easy.

CONSISTENT RULING. Middlebrooke understand that I think.

AND BTW, when Darby said "I don't like the way that car looks", he scrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrewed the pooch.

Blame Darby if anybody.
NA,NA,NA,NAH
HENDRICK FANS - 10
HENDRICK HATERS - 0 [ZIPPO]
LMAO
 
Also it's supposed to rain all weekend and someone will blame NASCAR for it.

I don't know where you get your info but Mark Kriski said that Friday and Saturday will be clear, although cooler than today. The rain (if any) is forecast to arrive Sunday in the mid-afternoon.

As for blaming NA$$CAR... Hells Yeah!! :punkrocke
 
So once again someone is telling a lie
WHO?
That is just silly. Noone is telling anything other than the truth. There are people on this forum trolling , trying to make contaversy when there is none. An infraction was found. A penalty was imposed . An appeal board upheld the infraction and penalty . It was taken to an old guy , he upheld the infraction but reduced the penalty . Where is the problem ? If they take it to the supreme court and they find there was still an infraction, but reduce the penalty further , there is still no issue.Who cares.
 
Because that would be consistent with the recent past.

Everybody who thinks this wasn't fair, needs to look at how NASCAR handled the whole JGR oil pan deal.

They got just fined with money. NO points, NO CC suspension....

But the JGR ruling stood and wasn't overturned by some hack in a suit. And, the JGR oil pans never saw the racetrack. The deal with the JGR pans is that the were not submitted for approval prior to being installed.
 
But the JGR ruling stood and wasn't overturned by some hack in a suit. And, the JGR oil pans never saw the racetrack. The deal with the JGR pans is that the were not submitted for approval prior to being installed.

Not submitted. woW. They took an oil pan and turned it into something that an oil pan is not. So they actually submitted something new with no approval at all.

The 48 gets yanked out of line because Darby got a new laser beam installed in the sweet sunglasses?

Darby shot himself in the foot, and JGR never needed to get a penalty reversed in the first place you ace. They got monetary penalties. Nothing more. Not even close to 25 points and a 6 week suspension.

All of the hub-bub don't matter. It's over with, and everybody can cry all they want about this and that, meanwhile...... Back at the ranch...............

the 48 team will be handily working on what they have in the best way they can. :cool:
 
There's no doubt the C-pillars where Illegal and modified by the team, those body panels are one of the ones that NASCAR says May not be Altered period dosent matter if the templates fit them or not.
Yes other teams where allowed to "Grind" on parts including c-pillars to make them fit the template thats nothing new happens every race. The 48 cars c-pillars where modified in such a way that grinding would not fix the issue and the template was'nt a factor in the modification, so NASCAR confiscated them and then set penaltys and fines.
Later after Hendrick appealed Middlebrook decided the Points protion of the penalty's was to severe and reduced the penalty's to monentary and probation. He Did Not say the modification was legal he just lowered the fine.

I don't see why everyone is making such an issue about this it's pretty clear what went on.

The Rumors I've heard, are that the panels where modified to allow venting of hi pressure areas under the rear window area.

Why is it so clear what went on? I want to know. I'm not a damn engineer like you Flash, with all your hotshot connections to the racing industry ;)

I would like to hear more about this Flash.

Are you saying that the shape of the metal was altered? ....or the actual physical properties of the metal were altered?

First thing I thought of when you said to vent: LAAAAAAAAASER driven holes. Like the kind in the hilt of a cigarette. Pretttttyyyy coooool. So tiny you can't even see them. What an idea. You would think the paint would cover them, but if you did it after paint somehow, that would be the ticket.

Yeah, another bonehead idea, anybody else got one more hairbrained than mine?
 
I highly doubt the thing had holes in it. What has been said is that they were shaped to control how much air hits the spoiler. MWR got caught trying to control the air hitting the spoiler, but they shaved down the windshield edge to do it.
 
Not submitted. woW. They took an oil pan and turned it into something that an oil pan is not. So they actually submitted something new with no approval at all.

The 48 gets yanked out of line because Darby got a new laser beam installed in the sweet sunglasses?

Darby shot himself in the foot, and JGR never needed to get a penalty reversed in the first place you ace. They got monetary penalties. Nothing more. Not even close to 25 points and a 6 week suspension.

All of the hub-bub don't matter. It's over with, and everybody can cry all they want about this and that, meanwhile...... Back at the ranch...............

the 48 team will be handily working on what they have in the best way they can. :cool:
lol dude ,arguein with a Ford guy's,like arguein with a billy goat.
 
The fine and probation means that they brought something to the track that was a bit off.

The overturning of the points and suspension comes from the fact that they were the only team that wasn't allowed to fix what NASCAR didn't like.
This.... it's over ....move on. They will get caught again and hopefully NASCAR don't mess it up.
 
This.... it's over ....move on. They will get caught again and hopefully NASCAR don't mess it up.

Agreed. Chadski is one of the few Crew Chiefs who is willing to test the Grey Area of the rule book - despite all of the scrutiny. Might he cross the moveable NA$$CAR boundary again? Quite possibly! Make thet, HELLS YEAH!

Any CC worth his salt is going to take advangage of every millimeter the rules allow for, if he wants to keep his job, that is.

Chadski is the ony one who has the balls to "push the envelope" knowing that he is under the microscope. Plus, he knows that HIS boss, Mr. H will have his back.

This is nothing but GOOD for NA$$CAR!!!
 
1:15et today, (Friday) - Mike Helton speaks about #48 infractions - SiriusXM NASCAR Radio for those of you that have access.
 
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