The Elephant in The Room

SpeedPagan

SpeedPagan

The iRacing Guru
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NASCAR has been on a crusade of sorts to cut cost in the sports, mainly thanks to the Race Team Alliance. However, I think both organization are missing the biggest expenditure for any racing team, Engineering, Research and Development This is where most of the money is spent because it's where teams can find that extra 10th of a second so that they can be out front. I have yet to see anyone address this giant elephant in the room, but that's may be because there's no way to address it. NASCAR has to walk a fine line between turning their multiple series into a spec racing series such as IROC, or just letting the team go hog-wild on what they can do with the car. Maybe the reason they're not addressing it is because there's no way to address it without drastically changing the sport, maybe for the better, maybe for the worse.

Thoughts?
 
A good driver can conquer any R and D. The better drivers get their good rides based on prior experience winning in lower tier R AND D
 
4tires17gals said:
A good driver can conquer any R and D. The better drivers get their good rides based on prior experience winning in lower tier R AND D
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Ehh, I wouldn't go quite that far. I think a driver can only be as good as their equipment will allow them to be. If they can win in "lower tier" equipment, it sort of proves that perhaps that equipment isn't really so low tier after all.
 
The switch to engineering-based racecar construction, aero and chassis dynamics development, the use of simulation software programs, computational fluid dynamics and finite element analysis and shops filled with pull-down rigs, 8 post shakers and VIMM machines occurred years ago.

It is the foundation of car preparation, in-race setup changes, fuel and tire strategy and every other important element of race operations in every professional (and most high level amateur) auto racing series around the globe.

Don't wanna pay? Simple ... don't play.
 
Joey Logono got his ride partially by winning in Banderjerrios when he was 13 in poor cars. Jeff Fuller drove horrible modifies.
Hermie Sadler even drove a V6!
 
BobbyFord said:
Without R&D, top teams would be start and park teams. This is racing, spend money or get beat. You get what you pay for. I don't believe that NASCAR is serious about cost cutting in the Cup Series.
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Agree.

I don't believe that NASCAR cares. The charter cars will be there every week and they will decide amongst themselves how much they are willing to spend.
 
Nascar can only use tools like tighter rules on body measurements , taller spoilers , smaller restrictor plates . The owners now have an association if they think they have any useful ideas.
 
Cost cutting has been a complete disaster for Indy car, and is responsible for the significant decline in formula one. Right now start parking is profitable, and being a contender is profitable, hopefully NASCAR avoids falling for the cost cutting trap.
 
joe h said:
Cost cutting has been a complete disaster for Indy car, and is responsible for the significant decline in formula one. Right now start parking is profitable, and being a contender is profitable, hopefully NASCAR avoids falling for the cost cutting trap.
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It is a disaster, but it's also very different because Indycar's cuts are because of a dramatic cut in revenue. Their television contract is just awful and sponsors are abandoning the series.
 
I like cost cutting for the preservation, but the more of it, the more spec it gets. Eventually fine tuning is all that remains, and a lot of dynamics is forever lost.
It isn't anybodies fault, the nature of the beast. It is like the downside of aging, progress isn't always glorious.
 
I don't think I've ever heard of a racing series that didn't make an effort to keep the cost of participation down .
 
the market has changed. see the thread about a title sponsor. and this current tv contract will never be matched. pretty sure the revenue stream is drying up. which is why the alliance was created. nascar will exist and the superteams will dominate.
 
BobbyFord said:
Such is the direction of NASCAR.....It's only a matter of time.
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This is true, but the current television contracts run through the 2024 season. I think that by 2019 or 2020, the viewership will be so further dilluted with ever worsening demographics for advertisers that these contracts will be widely viewed as catastrophic for both Fox and NBC. However, NASCAR and the teams are guaranteed this stable revenue through 2024. The television industry will look very different by then, and I think there will be a rude awakening when they try to negotiate another deal. That's a ways off though.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Speaking of animals and structures, the Research cat is out of the bag and opened the barn for his friend the Developement horse.
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Correct. Once smart people have learned stuff about making racecars go faster, they can never un-learn it.

BobbyFord said:
Evolve or become extinct.
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I agree. But many members here at R-F believe Nascar's path to happiness and success would have been to remain forever in 1985.
 
gnomesayin said:
This is true, but the current television contracts run through the 2024 season. I think that by 2019 or 2020, the viewership will be so further dilluted with ever worsening demographics for advertisers that these contracts will be widely viewed as catastrophic for both Fox and NBC. However, NASCAR and the teams are guaranteed this stable revenue through 2024. The television industry will look very different by then, and I think there will be a rude awakening when they try to negotiate another deal. That's a ways off though.
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these contracts are no more binding then the ones the drivers sign with the teams. no way nascar meets the numbers in the contract, so they can rewrite the deal.
 
BOWTIE GUY said:
these contracts are no more binding then the ones the drivers sign with the teams. no way nascar meets the numbers in the contract, so they can rewrite the deal.
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Wrong.

NASCAR provides content and has no numbers to "meet". Ratings are the responsibility of the broadcasters.
 
I know many of you won't like this but here's my take. NASCAR specs the car chassis, body shapes and aero for all comers and lets the teams do the rest. Engines (hp capped), gear ratios, etc are left up to the teams. No post race inspections.

Let the best crew chiefs and drivers win.
 
aunty dive said:
If they are, that's their problem.

There doesn't seem to be a reduction in the number of commercials aired every week.
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The continued reduction in ratings will eventually have a negative effect in the cost and value of advertising associated with the broadcast.
 
BobbyFord said:
The continued reduction in ratings will eventually have a negative effect in the cost and value of advertising associated with the broadcast.
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It will.

Reflected in the rate per minute. Again, that's a broadcaster issue.
 
At the request of the owner cartel , Brian will step aside and be replaced by a CEO hired by the owners. They will get back to basics and make the racing the show. The fans will still be encouraged to input their suggestions into a box on a streetcorner outside the track.
 
BobbyFord said:
The continued reduction in ratings will eventually have a negative effect in the cost and value of advertising associated with the broadcast.
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There you have it. I believe there are laws governing the maximum time that can be spent on commercials. To get past that they are now showing the race and commercials at the same time and I have noticed the advertising is starting to stream across the bottom of the screen.
All that tells me they need to show more commercials because they are getting less money per minute of commercial time. The announcers are also doing commercials while talking about the race. Not much race being shown now.

However the biggest problem Nascar has is that they sold the time to the TV stations and they have no control over what the producers put out there. The producers are the reason the broadcasts are so poor that people are going away.
 
I think the only things they need to change all involve packages that put more emphasis on the driver and less on the aero. They are going in the right directon with the downforce reductions and tire variations. I would love to see them re-engineer the cars ( get them off the ground! ) but that would add even more costs to the equation. Maybe the next gen car.

Money has always ruled racing. But these days the teams with the cash are more dominant than ever. You used to occasionally see a midpack team hit on a setup and compete for a win. Not anymore.
 
BobbyFord said:
The guy with the most resources has always been the fastest guy.
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Consistently, yes. Every time, no. Nowadays, the only parity is limited to a handful of teams.

When Nemechek won his first career race, I think he finished 30th in the points that year. This was back when guys like Gordon were winning a ton of races each year, yet you always had a couple surprises.
 
2 Sweet said:
Consistently, yes. Every time, no. Nowadays, the only parity is limited to a handful of teams.

When Nemechek won his first career race, I think he finished 30th in the points that year. This was back when guys like Gordon were winning a ton of races each year, yet you always had a couple surprises.
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"Parity" doesn't exist in any racing series. Resources have always been the prime factor in performance.
 
SpeedPagan said:
NASCAR has to walk a fine line between turning their multiple series into a spec racing series such as IROC, or just letting the team go hog-wild on what they can do with the car.
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I think that is the problem. NASCAR has been trying to walk that fine line more than ever lately, and look at the result. Either go full spec series or let the teams go hog wild with the cars, because trying to remain in the middle is certainly not working very well....and cutting costs is only going to make things worse.

IF NASCAR does want to remain in the middle I think the best step they could take is instituting a salary cap that covers everything related to R&D, crew member salaries, driver salaries, and sponsor investments. May as well go that route anyway if they want to compete with the NFL and other major sports.
 
BobbyFord said:
At this point, there is no fix for this sport. Regardless of the gimmicks, it's the same product. Changing downforce isn't going to pad the fan base. You either like stock car racing or you don't.
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NASCAR is not stock car racing...hasn't been for decades. You are right that there is no fix for this sport. But there are ways to greatly improve the product in order to retain the diehard fans while also attracting new fans. What we have now is not accomplishing either of those. It is either time to let the sport ride off into the sunset or make DRASTIC changes. I would rather risk the sport dying a quick death if drastic changes are made rather than watch it slowly die without making changes.
 
RacerrecaR said:
NASCAR is not stock car racing...hasn't been for decades. You are right that there is no fix for this sport. But there are ways to greatly improve the product in order to retain the diehard fans while also attracting new fans. What we have now is not accomplishing either of those. It is either time to let the sport ride off into the sunset or make DRASTIC changes. I would rather risk the sport dying a quick death if drastic changes are made rather than watch it slowly die without making changes.
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What are you suggesting? Whatever they're doing now isn't working.
 
aunty dive said:
"Parity" doesn't exist in any racing series. Resources have always been the prime factor in performance.
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Agreed. But at least in the past it was possible for an average team to win a race. Nowadays it's impossible without the lucky aid of the weather (Buescher for example). Even in years where Gordon won 13 out of 34 races, guys like Bobby Hamilton or John Andretti were capable of winning a race. The guys running 30th in points were capable of scoring a top 5 every now and then. Imagine Michael Annett or Brian Scott pulling that off.

The dominant teams with the most resources consistently run up front, as they should. But over the years it's reached a new extreme.
 
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