They need to switch back to the old points system...

Spike

Spike

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Under this new system, there just isnt room for error. Being caught up in a wreck or two can erase 5 good races. It is almost impossible to catch back up after a bad day.

This isnt Formula One where there are smaller fields and the difference between 1st and 22nd isnt that big. Theres a big difference between 1 and 43.

It is an experiment that is failing IMO.
 
Spike said:
Under this new system, there just isnt room for error. Being caught up in a wreck or two can erase 5 good races. It is almost impossible to catch back up after a bad day.

This isnt Formula One where there are smaller fields and the difference between 1st and 22nd isnt that big. Theres a big difference between 1 and 43.

It is an experiment that is failing IMO.
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And they need to eliminate the Chase.

Everything Brian France has done is a failure.
 
I disagree with both of you. Many of the things young Brian has brought to the series has brought life back to the series. Yes, many of the old fan base hate and detest what he is doing, but on the other hand, the old fan base has stopped filling the stands. Oh you can say that it is the new rules and points system that has contributed to that, but on the other hand, I saw the sport beginning to wane long before the Chase was even a thought in Brian's head. Brian needs to move forward even more...bring back individuality to the sport, not just in drivers and teams, but in the cars themselves. Try to get more auto makers involved, let the teams do more to make their cars more dominate. Money has evened the sport so much that these days, anyone of 30 cars can win a race. In the end, if your the driver and on the best team, you will take home the trophy.
 
I am just saying specifically the Points system. I have no problem with the Chase.

If a driver gets caught up in one wreck it can screw his entire season. A series with a 43 car field is not the place for this type of points system as it makes it near impossible to make up lost ground.
 
buckaroo said:
I disagree with both of you. Many of the things young Brian has brought to the series has brought life back to the series. Yes, many of the old fan base hate and detest what he is doing, but on the other hand, the old fan base has stopped filling the stands. Oh you can say that it is the new rules and points system that has contributed to that, but on the other hand, I saw the sport beginning to wane long before the Chase was even a thought in Brian's head. Brian needs to move forward even more...bring back individuality to the sport, not just in drivers and teams, but in the cars themselves. Try to get more auto makers involved, let the teams do more to make their cars more dominate. Money has evened the sport so much that these days, anyone of 30 cars can win a race. In the end, if your the driver and on the best team, you will take home the trophy.
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Did you forget the :sarcasm: icon?
 
I would love nothing more than for the chase to be gone but I actually like the new points system so far. I mean look how close things are! That being said if the points stay close all year......the chase isn't needed is it?
 
Stewart Fan said:
I would love nothing more than for the chase to be gone but I actually like the new points system so far. I mean look how close things are! That being said if the points stay close all year......the chase isn't needed is it?
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The points are always close after the first 5 to 10 races of the year.
 
I mean look at Denny Hamlin. One bad race dropped him 8 spots in the points and it could take him 10 to make that ground back up. Thats ridiculous.
 
I am still liking the new points system. I have run the old and new system and it really doesn't make much difference.

If Hamlin has two good weeks he will be right back in the thick of things.
 
I like this new point system. Drivers can't just cruise --- the points are too close to play it safe.

As for the Chase --- I don't like it, but it's what we have -- so I live with it.
 
Spike said:
I mean look at Denny Hamlin. One bad race dropped him 8 spots in the points and it could take him 10 to make that ground back up. Thats ridiculous.
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Disagree Shrub dropped 13 one week jumped back up 8 last week.
 
Spike said:
Under this new system, there just isnt room for error. Being caught up in a wreck or two can erase 5 good races. It is almost impossible to catch back up after a bad day.

This isnt Formula One where there are smaller fields and the difference between 1st and 22nd isnt that big. Theres a big difference between 1 and 43.

It is an experiment that is failing IMO.
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I'm going to agree, Spike. The new system gives the illusion of things being closer but, when you consider that the difference in points in the old system was 5 and 4 for the first ten finishing spots and the 3 for the remainder of the field, there isn't that much difference in the point spread.

What bothers me about this new system is that it makes NOT having a bad race very important but does nothing about making winning a priority. IF there had been a 100 point spread between 1st and 2nd at Bristol do you really believe Kyle wouldn't have gotten at least a serious tap from Flipper and Johnson would have been content to sit back and watch them finish in front of him? But, they both had a "Good points day," so they were happy with 2nd and 3rd. They can make that up in a single race if Shrub has a poor finish.

This new point system turns a race into just a big oval chess match; you don't have to win, the other guy just has to lose.

I'm with you, it's a failure. But in the end it gives NA__AR the ability to say to its detractors, "Hey, we tried something!" Too bad they didn't address the real problem.
 
The old points system rewarded drivers for consistency over the entire season without a chase thrown in. As far as I can see the new system rewards drivers for consistency. Get rid of the chase and it just might work.
 
Jeez, old system doesn't reward winning and doesn't punishes just "cruising" around, and the fans *****. New system rewards a good finish at a race and punishes "cruising", and the fan *****.

I guess the old adage is true, you can't make everyone happy all the time, someone gotta *****.
 
The problem is in the new system one bad race can do serious harm to a season. There is zero room for error.
 
They said it best on NASCAR tonight, its just too hard to make up ground if you have an unexpected poor performance.
 
nascage said:
Still way too early to see how things will play out, I think.
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Exactly. It's the same story most every year at this point of the season. The point positions fluctuate frequently just being a few races in. I don't see any need to panic. I'm not seeing anything different than years gone by.
 
Spike said:
The problem is in the new system one bad race can do serious harm to a season. There is zero room for error.
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everybody has a bad race. i can see crew chiefs taking less risks with pushing the envelope on questionable setups. wonder how point deductions on penalties are going to play out. they're much more important now.
 
SlowNeasy said:
everybody has a bad race. i can see crew chiefs taking less risks with pushing the envelope on questionable setups. wonder how point deductions on penalties are going to play out. they're much more important now.
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Gee have we had any of those yet this year, usually by now we have had a few of them. Is that a coincedence or are all the teams not playing within the rules?
 
I like it, it makes the regular season and chase tight throughout the whole the year. Guys will have to prove themselves in both. Harvick last year cruised in 1st place most of the year until the chase arrived, he then bottomed out. Some teams seem content in just making the chase, I think this will push alot of teams to go for the championship.
 
JimmieGordon2448 said:
Harvick last year cruised in 1st place most of the year until the chase arrived, he then bottomed out.
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Bottomed out? He finished 3rd in the final Chase standings, 41 points back after starting the Chase 30 points back. Heck, he only gave up 11 points over the final 10 races. I think that only illustrates the problems with the Chase format IMO. He more than crushed his competition over the year.
 
SpeedPagan said:
Jeez, old system doesn't reward winning and doesn't punishes just "cruising" around, and the fans *****. New system rewards a good finish at a race and punishes "cruising", and the fan *****.

I guess the old adage is true, you can't make everyone happy all the time, someone gotta *****.
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Can you please explain to this dumb ol' farm boy how you came to the above [bold] conclusion?
 
John Galt said:
Can you please explain to this dumb ol' farm boy how you came to the above [bold] conclusion?
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Yeah cause what Edwards and JJ did at the end of last weeks race wasn't racing for the win.I would have called it cruising and they were rewarded with 2nd and 3rd place points.
 
http://community.nascar.com/madcowr..._point_system_vs_old_:_an_in-depth_comparison

OLD POINT SYSTEM

POS - PONTS - % of maximum possible points (including bonus points, rounded up to nearest whole number therefor a 0.5% margin of error)

Maximum Points : 195


1 ) 185 - 95%

2 ) 170 - 87%

3 ) 165 - 85%

4 ) 160 - 82%

5 ) 155 - 79%

6 ) 150 - 77%

7 ) 146 - 75%

8 ) 142 - 73%

9 ) 138 - 71%

10 ) 134 - 69%

11 ) 130 - 67%

12 ) 127 - 65%

13 ) 124 - 64%

14 ) 121 - 62%

15 ) 118 - 61%

16 ) 115 - 59%

17 ) 112 - 57%

18 ) 109 - 56%

19 ) 106 - 54%

20 ) 103 - 53%

21 ) 100 - 51%

22 ) 97 - 50%

23 ) 94 - 48%

24 ) 91 - 47%

25 ) 88 - 45%

26 ) 85 - 44%

27 ) 82 - 42%

28 ) 79 - 41%

29 ) 76 - 39%

30 ) 73 - 38%

31 ) 70 - 36%

32 ) 67 - 35%

33 ) 64 - 33%

34 ) 61 - 32%

35 ) 58 - 30%

36 ) 55 - 28%

37 ) 52 - 27%

38 ) 49 - 25%

39 ) 46 - 24%

40 ) 43 - 22%

41 ) 40 - 21%

42 ) 37 - 19%

43 ) 34 - 18%

Bonuses - 5 points leading a lap (3%) and 5 points leading the most laps (3%)



NEW POINT SYSTEM

POS - PONTS - % of maximum possible points (including bonus points, rounded up to nearest whole number therefor a 0.5% margin of error)

Maximum Points : 48


1 ) 46 - 96%

2 ) 42 - 87%

3 ) 41 - 85%

4 ) 40 - 83%

5 ) 39 - 81%

6 ) 38 - 79%

7 ) 37 - 77%

8 ) 36 - 75%

9 ) 35 - 73%

10 ) 34 - 71%

11 ) 33 - 68%

12 ) 32 - 67%

13 ) 31 - 65%

14 ) 30 - 63%

15 ) 29 - 60%

16 ) 28 - 58%

17 ) 27 - 56%

18 ) 26 - 54%

19 ) 25 - 52%

20 ) 24 - 50%

21 ) 23 - 48%

22 ) 22 - 46%

23 ) 21 - 44%

24 ) 20 - 42%

25 ) 19 - 40%

26 ) 18 - 38%

27 ) 17 - 35%

28 ) 16 - 33%

29 ) 15 - 31%

30 ) 14 - 29%

31 ) 13 - 27%

32 ) 12 - 25%

33 ) 11 - 23%

34 ) 10 - 21%

35 ) 9 - 19%

36 ) 8 - 17%

37 ) 7 - 15%

38 ) 6 - 13%

39 ) 5 - 10%

40 ) 4 - 8%

41 ) 3 - 6%

42 ) 2 - 4%

43 ) 1 - 2%

Bonus Points - 1 for leading a lap (2%) and 1 for leading the most laps (2%)



Intermittent Comparison

1st : 95% (old) vs 96% (new)

2nd : 87% (old) vs 87% (new)

5th : 79% (old) vs 81% (new)

10th : 69% (old) vs 71% (new)

15th : 61% (old) vs 60% (new)

20th : 53% (old) vs 50% (new)

25th : 45% (old) vs 40% (new)

30th : 38% (old) vs 29% (new)

35th : 30% (old) vs 19% (new)

40th : 22% (old) vs 8% (new)

43rd : 18% (old) vs 2% (new)

Bonus : 3% (old) vs 2% (new)
 
http://racereport.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/nascar-points-changes-old-new/

Previous system New system
The top 12 in the driver point standings after the 26th race of the season qualified for the Chase. These 12 drivers each started with 5,000 points and then were awarded 10 bonus points for each victory.


New system
The top 10 in the driver point standings after the 26th race of the season qualify for the Chase. These 10 drivers will have their points reset and be awarded three bonus points for each victory. The 11th and 12th spot in the Chase will go to the two drivers with the most victories ranked 11th to 20th in the point standings. If there are zero drivers with victories, the 11th and 12th positions will be filled based on points. If there are multiple drivers tied in total number of victories, the tie-breaker will be total points.
 
Thank you for the time and effort you took to put forth your explanation, kelloggs. I appreciate it. That was impressive.

But, you are dealing with percentages between numbers, which is good BUT I still do not see where the new system comes even close to addressing the main problem which has plagued NA__AR for a long time, the lack on incentive to race for the win versus being satisfied with a 3th, 4th or 5th place finish and just having a "Good points day."

Maybe I'm missing something in this equation but I just don't see it. With the new system a driver is encouraged to play the entire race safe and be happy with NOT having a problem and letting his competitors put themselves out of contention.

Maybe I'm just strange but I am a fan of a race where drivers want to win that race, or want to finish as high as they can in the final order, and are willing to take chances and literally claw their way to that position, not "Just be satisfied" with successfully taken one more step toward the championship.

Thanks again for the explanation as you see it. It was educational.
 
John Galt said:
Thank you for the time and effort you took to put forth your explanation, kelloggs. I appreciate it. That was impressive.

But, you are dealing with percentages between numbers, which is good BUT I still do not see where the new system comes even close to addressing the main problem which has plagued NA__AR for a long time, the lack on incentive to race for the win versus being satisfied with a 3th, 4th or 5th place finish and just having a "Good points day."

Maybe I'm missing something in this equation but I just don't see it. With the new system a driver is encouraged to play the entire race safe and be happy with NOT having a problem and letting his competitors put themselves out of contention.

Maybe I'm just strange but I am a fan of a race where drivers want to win that race, or want to finish as high as they can in the final order, and are willing to take chances and literally claw their way to that position, not "Just be satisfied" with successfully taken one more step toward the championship.
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I totally agree.

Thanks again for the explanation as you see it. It was educational.
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You're welcome. I also feel like they don't qualify, you go home.
 
kelloggs5TLfan said:
You're welcome. I also feel like they don't qualify, you go home.
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I agree and reward each driver 500 points for their first win during regular season. If they did this NASCAR would not have to reset the points for the chase.
 
I still think it's really stupid that leading the most laps gets you 1 bonus point and only leading a single lap gets you 1 point. Why not make leading the most laps worth more? Hell at least make it 3 points.
 
StewartHaas-Gibbs Racing said:
I still think it's really stupid that leading the most laps gets you 1 bonus point and only leading a single lap gets you 1 point. Why not make leading the most laps worth more? Hell at least make it 3 points.
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Agree. This "Mediocre Teams Deserve Bonus Points Too" rule for merely leading a lap is laughable. All you have to do is to stay out during a yellow. My suggestion is:
(1)Give a significant larger number of points for winning, and for finishing in the top three.

(2)Pay points only to 35th place, give all positions 36 through final position zero points and $10000 "Show money."
Here is a stat for you:
Last week at Bristol the last four positions were all S&P'ers. (all had "Brakes" as reason for DNF) totalled $673998. IF they were paid no points and $10000 each that would leave $633998 to be divided amongst the rest of the drivers who actually tried to race! If they split it evenly among the top thirty-five finishers that would be $18114.23 additional prize money for each position!Which deserves the money more, a team which just shows up and puts their hand out, or a team who actually tries to compete? You be the judge.

(3)Take away the silly Lead-A-Lap points and give a driver who leads the most laps a significant number of bonus points.
 
John Galt said:
Agree. This "Mediocre Teams Deserve Bonus Points Too" rule for merely leading a lap is laughable. All you have to do is to stay out during a yellow. My suggestion is:
(1)Give a significant larger number of points for winning, and for finishing in the top three.

(2)Pay points only to 35th place, give all positions 36 through final position zero points and $10000 "Show money."
Here is a stat for you:
Last week at Bristol the last four positions were all S&P'ers. (all had "Brakes" as reason for DNF) totalled $673998. IF they were paid no points and $10000 each that would leave $633998 to be divided amongst the rest of the drivers who actually tried to race! If they split it evenly among the top thirty-five finishers that would be $18114.23 additional prize money for each position!Which deserves the money more, a team which just shows up and puts their hand out, or a team who actually tries to compete? You be the judge.

(3)Take away the silly Lead-A-Lap points and give a driver who leads the most laps a significant number of bonus points.
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Not even a start n park team could survive on $10k...The hauler roundtrip from N.C. to the west coast and back would eat up half that money....
 
MELROSEMAFIA said:
Not even a start n park team could survive on $10k...The hauler roundtrip from N.C. to the west coast and back would eat up half that money....
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You get the picture. That was my point exactly. You might manage it for a race or two but it would make it necessary that the teams at least try to finish as far up the finishing order as possible and not participate in this S&P fiasco.

A $10K show money payoff would be like minimum wage; it's not something you can survive on, you get better. Call it "Motivation." If you want to be a "Minimum wage" team, then go back to the local tracks, or some minor traveling circuit, Cup just ain't for you. ("You" of course refers to the teams and not you, personally)
 
It should only be race winners in the chase IMO...that's it.

...and of course Dale Jr.

...and Jeff Gordon...and Jimmy Johnson...and don't forget Kyle and Kurt...plus Harvick and Tony.

...and we may as well put in the rest of them too. :)
 
John Galt said:
You get the picture. That was my point exactly. You might manage it for a race or two but it would make it necessary that the teams at least try to finish as far up the finishing order as possible and not participate in this S&P fiasco.

A $10K show money payoff would be like minimum wage; it's not something you can survive on, you get better. Call it "Motivation." If you want to be a "Minimum wage" team, then go back to the local tracks, or some minor traveling circuit, Cup just ain't for you. ("You" of course refers to the teams and not you, personally)
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They should just make it a 36 car field...NO PROVISIONALS...You qualify on time...If the points leader crashes during qualifying, they're OUT...Never in the history of sports has there been a sanctioning body with the lack of education that NASCRAP has....France, Helton, Darby, Pemberton, none of them have a college degree...mega-billion $ industry run by UNEDUCATED BUFFOONS....
 
MELROSEMAFIA said:
France, Helton, Darby, Pemberton, none of them have a college degree...mega-billion $ industry run by UNEDUCATED BUFFOONS....
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Hmmm, that guy in your avatar made a good deal of money and he didn't even finish high school. Education doesn't automatically give you a key to the penthouse. I work with a guy who has a masters degree and what does he do for a living....carry mail. Maybe those guys are all uneducated buffoons, but they are doing okay.
 
Get rid of points altogether. The true champ is whoever has the highest average finish in all the races, tie breaker is number of wins.
 
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