Top 10 drivers without a Cup Championship

Greg said:
(Preface: The following is just my opinion).

It was a different world. Bodine had a great modified career prior to cup. In his day a young gun in his 20s most often was working on making it to cup. He also had some great runs in Late Model Sportsman cars (the series that preceded Busch Grand National). He won the Oxford 250 which at the time attracted legendary drivers.

When he finally was able to give full attention to cup racing in 1982. He was already 33 years old. The path was so different, today most drivers in the prime seats are in or out by age of 25.ex the Buschs, Hamlin, Harvick, Edwards, etc..

I am not saying he.should be listed among this group of ten best, but he does have more substance than most folks will admit. His Cup years in good stuff imo.should read more like 12 years rather than the 27 imo. Those 27 years include Tommy Baldwin cars, Joe Bessey cars, and the early year clunkers.

In the late 80s he was a really solid cup driver. Never an Earnhardt, Wallace, Waltrip or Elliott but still very solid and most likely underated by todays generation.
Click to expand...
Not to mention that without his performance, Hendrick Motorsports probably wouldn't be around today.
 
ToyYoda said:
Denny's had only one decent season? Coulda fooled me. The guy never even missed the Chase until this year. Denny's had points finishes of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 6th; not bad considering this was only his 8th full season in Cup. He's had an 8 win and a 5 win season, Harvick's never done better than 4. Denny's never had a winless season while Harvick has posted a goose-egg 3 times. Both Denny and Kevin have 23 career wins, despite the fact that Harvick has started 175 more races than Hamlin. For all those reasons, I think Denny absolutely belongs ahead of Harvick on a list like this.
Click to expand...

What is tricky about this is that there is no guidelines to what makes one driver "more accomplished" than the other. Like you said, Hamlin has been consistent about making the chase thus far and has the same amount of wins as Harvick in less time. However, Harvick has finished in the top 5 in pts. 6 out of 13 seasons (46%) and Hamlin 3 of 8 (38%). Granted, Hamlin was hurt this yr so who knows what would have happened.

Besides that tho, I hope we are not in a day in age when winning crown jewel events are not as meaningful. Harvick may not have the same win/races ratio as Hamlin but he has shown up in big races....Daytona 500, Brickyard 400, Coke 600 (2), All-Star race...etc. So I am not sure it is absolute that Hamlin is superior to Harvick when Harvick has done it all but hoist that trophy in homestead.
 
Greg's posts are really knowledgeable and informative. That's a good case for why Geoff Bodine deserves more respect, but I don't think it quite justifies his inclusion here. The evidence just isn't there on the Cup level.

It's a decent list, but bizarre on a few counts. The rationale behind a list like this depends heavily on whether you value contending for championships but not quite winning them, or the much more vague notion of who are the most talented, 'fastest' non-champions. I tend to rely on the former, because the latter is too subjective to form any reliable basis for rankings.(It's different when assessing pre-1970s drivers, because winning the season championship wasn't the be-all end-all, or even possible for some of the best drivers.)

For instance, we can all acknowledge Kyle Busch's raw talent, how hard he races, how dominant he can be under ideal conditions, etc. But his actual performance in contending for Cup titles when it matters is abysmal. The Chase has cheapened what it means to truly contend, but Busch's results haven't shown an ability to do it under any system. He's won a lot of races in equipment that wins a lot of races with every top-tier driver they've employed. I have nothing against him and am ready for him to finally mature into the championship-caliber driver everyone thinks he can be. But it's a real reach to act like he's done that yet. At best he should barely make this list.

Placing Busch or Hamlin over Carl Edwards is questionable to me. Edwards has a third place points finish and two seconds, one of which was a tie up against the greatest clutch performance in the history of the sport (Tony Stewart, 2011). Edwards' stats are substantially superior to Hamlin's in every regard except for having two less race wins. JGR equipment > Roush. I would like to hear Caraviello's reasoning, but frankly I've never been that impressed by his analysis. The last two years have not been kind to Edwards, but Roush is a sinking ship.

Tim Richmond and Davey Allison belong. Obviously you're extrapolating with careers cut short, but both were right on the cusp of greatness. It's hard to imagine either not winning a title if they'd raced another three years, let alone ten. People also tend to forget that Ernie Irvan was poised to challenge Earnhardt for the title in 1994 before the Michigan crash that ruined his career. He had led most of the season and was probably still the favorite.

For me, Harry Gant is the other major oversight. I don't see how you rank Rudd or Bodine ahead of him. I'm not sure Gant was ever in genuine top equipment, and he won races and was far closer to contention more often.

Here's what I came up with:

1. Mark Martin
2. Fireball Roberts
3. Junior Johnson
4. Davey Allison
5. Carl Edwards
6. Kevin Harvick
7. Tim Richmond
8. Denny Hamlin
9. Harry Gant
10. Kyle Busch

HM: Fred Lorenzen, Ernie Irvan, Jeff Burton, Ricky Rudd
 
Last edited:
gnomesayin said:
Greg's posts are really knowledgeable and informative. That's a good case for why Geoff Bodine deserves more respect, but I don't think it quite justifies his inclusion here. The evidence just isn't there on the Cup level.

It's a decent list, but bizarre on a few counts. The rationale behind a list like this depends heavily on whether you value contending for championships but not quite winning them, or the much more vague notion of who are the most talented, 'fastest' non-champions. I tend to rely on the former, because the latter is too subjective to form any reliable basis for rankings.(It's different when assessing pre-1970s drivers, because winning the season championship wasn't the be-all end-all, or even possible for some of the best drivers.)

For instance, we can all acknowledge Kyle Busch's raw talent, how hard he races, how dominant he can be under ideal conditions, etc. But his actual performance in contending for Cup titles when it matters is abysmal. The Chase has cheapened what it means to truly contend, but Busch's results haven't shown an ability to do it under any system. He's won a lot of races in equipment that wins a lot of races with every top-tier driver they've employed. I have nothing against him and am ready for him to finally mature into the championship-caliber driver everyone thinks he can be. But it's a real reach to act like he's done that yet. At best he should barely make this list.

Placing Busch or Hamlin over Carl Edwards is questionable to me. Edwards has a third place points finish and two seconds, one of which was a tie up against the greatest clutch performance in the history of the sport (Tony Stewart, 2011). Edwards' stats are substantially superior to Hamlin's in every regard except for having two less race wins. JGR equipment > Roush. I would like to hear Caraviello's reasoning, but frankly I've never been that impressed by his analysis. The last two years have not been kind to Edwards, but Roush is a sinking ship.

Tim Richmond and Davey Allison belong. Obviously you're extrapolating with careers cut short, but both were right on the cusp of greatness. It's hard to imagine either not winning a title if they'd raced another three years, let alone ten. People also tend to forget that Ernie Irvan was poised to challenge Earnhardt for the title in 1994 before the Michigan crash that ruined his career. He had led most of the season and was probably still the favorite.

For me, Harry Gant is the other major oversight. I don't see how you rank Rudd or Bodine ahead of him. I'm not sure Gant was ever in genuine top equipment, and he won races and was far closer to contention more often.

Here's what I came up with:

1. Mark Martin
2. Fireball Roberts
3. Junior Johnson
4. Davey Allison
5. Carl Edwards
6. Kevin Harvick
7. Tim Richmond
8. Denny Hamlin
9. Harry Gant
10. Kyle Busch

HM: Fred Lorenzen, Ernie Irvan, Jeff Burton, Ricky Rudd
Click to expand...

You make some really good points, and I can't really argue too much with that list. I liked your points on Busch. I do wonder if his dominance in NWS and CWTS inflate his perception among the fans. You take away those two series and he is a decent cup driver who chokes in the end.
 
I think Bodine tangled with Earnhardt more than most. During Bodine's years in Cup I felt the best drivers were the veterans, probably because the got the best rides (Gordon was the first young gun to get a competitive ride right off the bat). I think Martian remained competitive way longer than any driver. I don't think any of the current drivers will be driving at age 50 - I could be wrong but the trend toward younger athletes for sponsorship reasons will make it harder.
 
ToyYoda said:
I'm not so sure I'd put Harvick ahead of Hamlin. They both have about the same amount of wins, despite the fact that Harvick has been in Cup 5 years longer than Hamlin has. Hamlin also has a 2nd place points finish while Harvick has never finished better than 3rd, and Hamlin had never missed the Chase until this year, which was primarily due to his injury.
Click to expand...

Harvick has been a championship contender several times and the one year Hamlin choked, Harvick had the best overall season and it wasn't even close. Harvick's a driver who can win championships and probably would've won a couple championships if he was in better equipment. Hamlin had the best car and crew for several years and he, by himself, lost a championship. Harvick belongs, Hamlin doesn't.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Harvick has been a championship contender several times and the one year Hamlin choked, Harvick had the best overall season and it wasn't even close. Harvick's a driver who can win championships and probably would've won a couple championships if he was in better equipment. Hamlin had the best car and crew for several years and he, by himself, lost a championship. Harvick belongs, Hamlin doesn't.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but I don't see it. If you peel back the emotion from the argument and just look at the facts, the only department where Harvick beats Hamlin is in popularity. Hamlin has done more in a shorter amount of time. I know that Harvick won the Coulda-Woulda-Shoulda Cup in 2010. I also know he has a Daytona 500 and a Brickyard 400 win (but then again, so do Trevor Bayne and Paul Menard respectively). But, I just think Hamlin belongs ahead of Harvick. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
Kyle18fan said:
Obviously Kyle Busch is at the top of the list of active drivers. Not much chance of the 4 ahead of him winning a cup :einstein:
The big question is how many cups will Kyle win before his career ends
Click to expand...
More like when will he win even one? and when will your single endless wanking about a driver who is the undisputed lower lower level weasel end? bwaaaaa. gots ya.:)
 
ToyYoda said:
Sorry, but I don't see it. If you peel back the emotion from the argument and just look at the facts, the only department where Harvick beats Hamlin is in popularity. Hamlin has done more in a shorter amount of time. I know that Harvick won the Coulda-Woulda-Shoulda Cup in 2010. I also know he has a Daytona 500 and a Brickyard 400 win (but then again, so do Trevor Bayne and Paul Menard respectively). But, I just think Hamlin belongs ahead of Harvick. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Click to expand...

As I said, Hamlin's also had undeniably the best car and crew for years. Hamlin's the Tony Romo of NASCAR. He'll put up the numbers, he'll win races but he chokes when it matters. Harvick's contended for championships with a team that has missed the Chase several times because RCR has been a second-tier NASCAR team with a top-tier driver for years. Put Harvick in Hamlin's car with Hamlin's team during the entirety of his Cup career and there would be championships.

You can win as many races as you want but wins alone don't win championships. Kyle Busch is proof of that.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
As I said, Hamlin's also had undeniably the best car and crew for years. Hamlin's the Tony Romo of NASCAR. He'll put up the numbers, he'll win races but he chokes when it matters. Harvick's contended for championships with a team that has missed the Chase several times because RCR has been a second-tier NASCAR team with a top-tier driver for years. Put Harvick in Hamlin's car with Hamlin's team during the entirety of his Cup career and there would be championships.

You can win as many races as you want but wins alone don't win championships. Kyle Busch is proof of that.
Click to expand...
I thought Kyle Busch was the Tony Romo of NASCAR? At least Denny has a 2nd place points finish, I don't ever recall Romo getting to a Super Bowl and losing.

To say who would have done what in which car is 100% speculation. I'm not sure how much I buy the whole RCR second-tier equipment argument either. Dale Earnhardt didn't win 6 championships in 2nd-tier equipment. Yes, they're probably a half step behind JGR, but it's not like Kevin's been out there in BK Racing cars his whole career.
 
ToyYoda said:
I thought Kyle Busch was the Tony Romo of NASCAR? At least Denny has a 2nd place points finish, I don't ever recall Romo getting to a Super Bowl and losing.

To say who would have done what in which car is 100% speculation. I'm not sure how much I buy the whole RCR second-tier equipment argument either. Dale Earnhardt didn't win 6 championships in 2nd-tier equipment. Yes, they're probably a half step behind JGR, but it's not like Kevin's been out there in BK Racing cars his whole career.
Click to expand...
Dale didn't win championships after organizations like Roush, HMS, and JGR really took off. For the most part, teams in Dale's prime were single-car operations.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Dale didn't win championships after organizations like Roush, HMS, and JGR really took off. For the most part, teams in Dale's prime were single-car operations.
Click to expand...
True, but even after his championship days he was still competitive except for a few brief lulls. Had 2 wins and finished 2nd in points in 2000, his final year.
 
ToyYoda said:
True, but even after his championship days he was still competitive except for a few brief lulls. Had 2 wins and finished 2nd in points in 2000, his final year.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but it was still a significant drop-off in performance. From 1986-1994 he finished outside of the top three in points only once. He finished outside of the top three from 1996-1999, sandwiched in between the runner-up seasons. I find Harvick's five top-four finishes in the last eight seasons (in a deeper series) pretty comparable and very stellar.

Bowyer is really the only noteworthy driver to leave RCR for another big team, and in his first two seasons with MWR chassis and TRD engines he's posted his best two seasons, statistically, of his career. 2012 saw his largest win total for a single season while both 2012 and 2013 are his best seasons in terms of Top 5s, Top 10s, and average finish.
 
StandOnIt said:
More like when will he win even one? and when will your single endless wanking about a driver who is the undisputed lower lower level weasel end? bwaaaaa. gots ya.:)
Click to expand...

Define wanking for me then I will let you know if you got me or not................ pretty sure its not ;)
 
I was wondering when it would get around to boyea. Boyer had a third and a fifth early with Childress, so it isn't that stellar with MWR yet IMO. same pattern.
 
I don't get the list in the first place, all of them should be retired from racing to be on it I would think, because active drivers can still win a championship, but who cares, I'm going thru withdrawals. Harvick, Hamlin, Bush, Edwards and probably Martin if he isn't done yet need to go. I would say Martin, if he did drive some more couldn't win anyway, but the rest of them could possibly win a championship. I would vote for hall of famer J. Johnson and Fred Lorenzen. No particular scoring reason, I just like those two.
 
StandOnIt said:
I was wondering when it would get around to boyea. Boyer had a third and a fifth early with Childress, so it isn't that stellar with MWR yet IMO. same pattern.
Click to expand...
True, but that's just because in '07 and '08 he had a good Chase run. For much of those regular seasons he was hovering around 10th-12th in points. His best overall seasons have been with MWR. From after the June Dover race this year to after the Labor Day weekend Atlanta event he was either 2nd or 3rd in points.
 
I'm not disagreeing, just saying that only two seasons is a short time. He wasn't a new driver when he joined MWR, so I am curious to see how he does in a longer run. I'm thinking he won't do that great this year as he did the two previous seasons, just a wild guess, plenty of changes going on with that bunch.
 
I honestly don't trust anything Yahoo since there mostly uneducated.

Here's my opinion on what the top 10 should be...

1. This was tricky but I would say Mark Martin just because of his skill level and the fact in 1991 he was denied of a championship by a 46 point penalty earlier in the season at Richmond and if not for the penalty, would of won the championship over Dale.Sr.
2. Just about as tricky as number 1 but I would say Fireball Roberts because even though he died at Charlotte 1964 he innovated the sport by making NASCAR aware of how dangerous metal fuel tanks were, which is why they went to plastic ones. Also he was very dominate during the same era as Junior also winning at least one race per year.
3. The first 3 are always tricky to sort because there all very deserving but I'm going to say Junior Johnson simply because of the great amount of wins he has and was very consistent during 1958-65, winning at least one race during that span.
4. Harry Grant wins it for me because when he was on top of his game (1981-85) he was never lower then 7th in the point standings but it was 86-88 that bumps him out of the top 3 since he didn't win in 86 then didn't even crack the top five in 87-88. Though he was great in September 1991 that doesn't quite help enough.
5. Ricky Rudd gets 5th because even though people think that he didn't have the greatest driving skill, he still had a 16 year streak (1983-98) where he won at least one race. He also has 921 starts, 2nd highest which proves his love for the sport.
6. Davey Allison just misses the top 5 because despite winning two races with a unsponsored car in 1987 and also winning at least two races between 1987-90, and not to forgot losing a championship in the last race to Alan Kulwicki his career was to short to see if this legend was going to stay one.
7. Fred Lorenzen because he was very dominate during 1961-67, half his finishes were top 10's and the fact he never ran a full season due to the wonky mid week races of the 60's. Also can't forget about 75 top 5 finishes. But the early era was not as competitive so he can't be higher then 7th.
8. Ernie Irvan simply because when he wasn't injuried he was one of the best drivers out on the track. Also after a near fatal practice crash in 1994 he managed to win races without sight with one eye, talk about a warrior. The injuries keep him low on the list but he could of been a champion.
9. Fonty Flock because of his ability to win at different kinds of tracks and never having the greatest equipment but with a short career (1949-57) and no era of dominance, how can you put him higher then 9th?
10. I was thinking of putting a current driver but that wouldn't be right so instead I'm going to put Neil Bonnett because when he wasn't injuried and when Wood Brothers were running he was one of the best out there, he drove his car to the absolute limit which caused him to get injuried a lot but also have some wins. He just couldn't catch a break.

HM: Kevin Harvick, Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards, Marvin Panch and Curtis Turner.
 
Apparently, they've all done this and done that but none of them are Cup champions because none of them ever got it done.
 
BobbyFord said:
This is like a "What do you like on your pizza?" thread.
It's nothing but opinion.
Click to expand...

sausage and green pepper and I'm all good

Limiting the list to 5 and sticking to drivers who are no longer active:

Curtis Turner
Fireball Roberts
Fred Lorenzen
Junior Johnson
Mark Martin (provided someone locks him in his work-out room)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom