Upcoming Nascar Changes Impact on You

  • Thread starter Thread starter Skoalbandit33
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I was going to make a remark about the desire for all races to be marathons. But no, for those who are good at it, running a marathon doesn't take anywhere close to four hours either.
 
gnomesayin said:
You're right about the wave around rule, my bad for implying it was unique when what I really meant was the free pass rule. The wave around can be argued as a wise safety move to get slower cars out of the leaders' way on restarts, and there is some merit to that. However, it is taken advantage of to do exactly what you stated, at least in IndyCar. There is no sporting rationale for Lucky Dog except for they want more cars on the lead lap.

These rules are made much worse in practice when compounded by unnecessary cautions that are used to erase gaps and bunch of the field again and again.
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A friend of mine is the building superintendent for a local school corporation and we enjoy getting together and talking shop. He told me that he can get the school board to agree to any expenditure he wants BUT it has to be submitted the right way. For instance if he needed a new mower for his guys to use he would never get it. If he says he needs a new mower because the tall grass is a safety hazard for the teachers and students driving and walking they will give him 2 mowers just to be on the safe side.

In some ways it is the same with Nascar as so long as a person can argue the safety of the fans and drivers all dialog is shut down and if you disagree with anything deemed safety related you are a bloodthirsty person. For the most part Nascar has done a very good job with mandating safety features such as soft walls and the HANS device. The problem is that some of the other safety initiatives have led to the series being dumbed down as drivers can earn multiple laps back in any race plus the endless waves arounds and restarts that lead to more restarts and all of a sudden the only people in the race that are not on the lead lap are Jeffrey Earnhardt and Joey Gase. That is as unsporting and bogus as they come.

The more the series has become dumbed down the less interesting the racing has become and the more fans have walked away. I am not suggesting that the series needs to become more dangerous in order to entice fans but it does need to operate at an overall faster pace and people should be able to watch it and not have their intelligence insulted on a regular basis.
 
gnomesayin said:
Since we must do the other sports comparison, which sports are you thinking of? I don't think it should matter, as the question is what is the ideal length of a NASCAR race for the bulk of the potential audience, not how long are other sports that aren't racing. But here we go.

NFL: 3:07
College football: 3:23
NBA: 2:20
College basketball: 2:05
MLB: 2:56
NHL: 2:20
Soccer: 1:50 - 2:10
Tennis: 2:20 - 2:40

The only one I can think of that can top four hours is golf tournament coverage, and that is usually timed or edited to create a more appealing 2-3 hour window of prime coverage.
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I was struggling to think of what regularly televised national sports games regularly eclipsed 4 hours. I still can't think of any.
 
gnomesayin said:
I was going to make a remark about the desire for all races to be marathons. But no, for those who are good at it, running a marathon doesn't take anywhere close to four hours either.
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LOL, that is true.
 
A round of golf for the tour pros is about 4:15-4:30 per player normally. It's difficult for even recreational players to squeeze a round in under that.

There's no way baseball is coming in under 3 hours, that def isn't right.
 
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AdoubleU24 said:
There's no way baseball is coming in under 3 hours, that def isn't right.
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Yes, that is right. 2:56 was the average length in 2015, which was actually down from 3:08 in 2014, an all-time high. For every 3.5 hour slugfest, there is a 2.5 hour pitchers' duel. There is much discussion about more initiatives to keep games from getting any longer.

Postseason games are longer on average, closer to 3:25.
 
AdoubleU24 said:
A round of golf for the tour pros is about 4:15-4:30 per player normally. It's difficult for even recreational players to squeeze a round in under that.

There's no way baseball is coming in under 3 hours, that def isn't right.
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MLB has put a significant emphasis on pace of play rules the last couple of years. There was actually a game in 2015 that went the distance in 1:58.
 
My father in law is a HUGE baseball fan and has said for years the main problem with getting new people into the sport is the games are too long. But yes MLB has made a point in the last few years of trying yo spreed up the Gamez.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
That is the issue with Lew and others as the integrity of what they are seeing is not important. I was lamenting drivers getting unearned laps back in races and Lew told me that it wasn't an issue because it didn't change their finishing positions. I think 6-7 cars have gone on to win races that have been the beneficiary of unearned laps not to mention the countless teams that have gone from 25th to 12th in the closing laps due to incessant cautions and restarts. The process is artificial and bereft of integrity but some people are either completely blind to it or feebly attempt to rationalize it.
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Sorry to disappoint you, but you are .completely wrong to characterize my opinions that way, and I'm sure you know it. I do have sensible priorities. You whine and rant about an unearned lap got by lucky dog, and yet conveniently ignore the prior practices that led to the lucky dog compromise.

IMO, a far more egregious example of Nascar giving unearned rewards to undeserving drivers is the pathetic points scale Nascar has always used. NASCAR's ridiculously flat scale has always been designed to keep the points close, and has always under-rewarded the winners and proped up the others. But to you (and many others) that doesn't rate a mention because that's what was done 40-50 years ago, so that makes it OK.
 
LewTheShoe said:
IMO, a far more egregious example of Nascar giving unearned rewards to undeserving drivers is the pathetic points scale Nascar has always used. NASCAR's ridiculously flat scale has always been designed to keep the points close, and has always under-rewarded the winners and proped up the others.
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I agree with this and always have, and I know I have made multiple posts in my brief history here to this effect. There has never been a good NASCAR points system. There is reasonable debate to be had about what the scale should look like, but they've never been close to one that is sensible. It was designed to force teams to compete in every race when that wasn't a given, nothing more.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Sorry to disappoint you, but you are .completely wrong to characterize my opinions that way, and I'm sure you know it. I do have sensible priorities. You whine and rant about an unearned lap got by lucky dog, and yet conveniently ignore the prior practices that led to the lucky dog compromise.

IMO, a far more egregious example of Nascar giving unearned rewards to undeserving drivers is the pathetic points scale Nascar has always used. NASCAR's ridiculously flat scale has always been designed to keep the points close, and has always under-rewarded the winners and proped up the others. But to you (and many others) that doesn't rate a mention because that's what was done 40-50 years ago, so that makes it OK.
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I have said many times that the old point system was far superior to the sillyassed lottery we have now but it needed to be overhauled. But that is changing horses and perhaps a discussion for another time. Do you deny saying to me that it didn't matter what lap a car finished on as it didn't really change its finishing position? Think carefully as I am just the kind of person to have saved a copy of the statement as some people have selective memories and need little reminders....:D
 
Midweek races won't work. Well with ratings anyways.

A memo to NASCAR: People work during the week...they come home late...they want to eat..watch a movie with the family. Go to sleep. Rinse/repeat.
 
As a big racing fan, I do find the races get boring sometimes. Especially at my home track of Kentucky. Although I think they should focus on changing the cars to make the racing better rather than the format of the race.

The other thing I wish they would focus on is embracing the gambling, fantasy racing aspect. For example 90% of the people who head to Churchill downs for a horse race don't know a lick about racing. But give them the opportunity to put $2 on a horse with a chance to win money and they have a great time!
 
gnomesayin said:
... The only one I can think of that can top four hours is golf tournament coverage, and that is usually timed or edited to create a more appealing 2-3 hour window of prime coverage.
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Only the last four hours or so of a golf tournament is covered on a major network on Saturday and Sunday. Almost all Thursday and Friday rounds, and the first several hours of the weekend rounds are covered on a second-tier network. That's usually Golf Channel (NBC), but it depends on the tournament and primary network.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I was struggling to think of what regularly televised national sports games regularly eclipsed 4 hours. I still can't think of any.
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I'm often amazed by the amount of pre-game coverage some events get. In terms of total pre-game time, the Super Bowl is clearly the winner, with three or four hours of pre-game on the broadcast network.. But in terms of the ratio of pre-game time to actual event time, the clear winner is the Kentucky Derby. That gets about 90 minutes before a race of 2.5 minutes or so.

College basketball games only seem like 4 hours.
 
Matthew2470 said:
Everyone here will still watch every lap of every race and will attend all of the races they normally do. We've all stuck around through a ton of change over the past 15 years so this is far from a deal breaker.
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I've boycotted several playoff races since the current Chase format was implemented, including two finales.

Had I known that Homestead Fall 2015 wouldn't be Jeff Gordon's last race, I would've boycotted it as well.

If caution clocks, timed races, or heat races are implemented, I may very well watch fewer races.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I have said many times that the old point system was far superior to the sillyassed lottery we have now but it needed to be overhauled. But that is changing horses and perhaps a discussion for another time. Do you deny saying to me that it didn't matter what lap a car finished on as it didn't really change its finishing position? Think carefully as I am just the kind of person to have saved a copy of the statement as some people have selective memories and need little reminders....:D
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I said that, although I added the essential qualifiers such as generally or usually or rarely that you omitted, thus changing my statement fundamentally. Do you deny that there have always been laps given back, since the beginning of Nascar?

BTW, what's your rationale for lapped cars restarting in their own line at the front? How was that an "earned" position?
 
Reck said:
Midweek races won't work. Well with ratings anyways.

A memo to NASCAR: People work during the week...they come home late...they want to eat..watch a movie with the family. Go to sleep. Rinse/repeat.
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Is this why Monday Night Football is such a failure? LOL.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Is this why Monday Night Football is such a failure? LOL.
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Unfortunately Monday Night Football has taken the biggest hit of all with the NFL's decline this season. Regular Sunday afternoon games were down less than 5% overall, and Monday night was down close to 20%.

I don't believe that has anything to do with being on a weeknight though. Monday Night Football was an institution and ratings monster for decades. What happened is that the NFL finally hit a point of oversaturation. All of the true showcase games shifted to Sunday night, a night that does have more TVs in use, and MNF became the final unremarkable game of a week in which people were inundated with too much NFL on multiple nights.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I was struggling to think of what regularly televised national sports games regularly eclipsed 4 hours. I still can't think of any.
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The College Football national championship game went 4 hours. I've watched numerous baseball games take longer than 4 hours. NBA and NFL games both can go longer than 4 hours depending on the flow of the game. Not saying every game runs that long but I just feel that a 4hour window would be better than 3.
 
Simple Fan said:
The College Football national championship game went 4 hours. I've watched numerous baseball games take longer than 4 hours. NBA and NFL games both can go longer than 4 hours depending on the flow of the game. Not saying every game runs that long but I just feel that a 4hour window would be better than 3.
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You are really exaggerating. No NBA game in history that wasn't interrupted by something like a power outage has been clocked at four hours. There are a couple of NCAA basketball games that went to 5 or 6 OTs and came close to four hours but not quite. Ever.

The average length of an NBA game is two hours and 20 minutes. Since there are no games that only last an hour, it is obviously ridiculous to say that NBA games can last four hours.

The number of NFL games that approach four hours each year, except.for the Super Bowl with its 40 minute half time, can be counted on one hand.
 
Reck said:
Midweek races won't work. Well with ratings anyways.

A memo to NASCAR: People work during the week...they come home late...they want to eat..watch a movie with the family. Go to sleep. Rinse/repeat.
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Maybe midweek races would be a hit with unemployed slackers lol.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I said that, although I added the essential qualifiers such as generally or usually or rarely that you omitted, thus changing my statement fundamentally. Do you deny that there have always been laps given back, since the beginning of Nascar?

BTW, what's your rationale for lapped cars restarting in their own line at the front? How was that an "earned" position?
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Any method used would be preferable to having a car 3 laps down being able to get back on the lead lap in short order due to wave arounds and double file restart wrecks. Nascar seems to like to have as many cars as possible on the lead lap as possible as it makes the competition seem closer.
 
gnomesayin said:
Unfortunately Monday Night Football has taken the biggest hit of all with the NFL's decline this season. Regular Sunday afternoon games were down less than 5% overall, and Monday night was down close to 20%.

I don't believe that has anything to do with being on a weeknight though. Monday Night Football was an institution and ratings monster for decades. What happened is that the NFL finally hit a point of oversaturation. All of the true showcase games shifted to Sunday night, a night that does have more TVs in use, and MNF became the final unremarkable game of a week in which people were inundated with too much NFL on multiple nights.
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The Monday Night sked of games was atrocious this year and I only watched 1 game. Redskins, Bengals, Rams, 49'ers, Bears, Eagles, Colts, Jets, Bills, Cards and Panthers and some of these teams were on twice. These teams should only be shown in local markets and never on National TV until they improve.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
There is no doubt that having no speed limit on pit road today would not work as just about every 35-40 mile an hour pit stop has issues of drivers missing pits, running into tires, running into others and running into competitors. Pit road can often function as a 3 ring circus and there is no way today's drivers and crews have the skills or ability to pull off what the old-timers did for years.
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That's why I am in favor of no pitting under caution.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Is this why Monday Night Football is such a failure? LOL.
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MNF had some games that had 11 million viewers which would be great for Nascar but awful for nationally broadcast football game even on cable.
 
Here's the thing with all the talk about outlier sporting events that last four hours or longer than usual. I am totally in favor of the Southern 500 lasting four hours if that is what it takes to complete the Southern 500. Or the 600 at Charlotte.

What I have suggested is that if they leave the truly historical long races in place, and give us shorter, more intense 'average' races at tracks like Kansas and Chicago, that would be for the best. It would make the crown jewel events more unique and prestigious, and we wouldn't have 200 miles of riding around dead time in the middle of the race at the cookie cutters.
 
ReturnTrip said:
As long as they don't mind empty stands, I think the TV ratings would be better.
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Midweek races may work in places like Vegas or largely populated areas where the race is heavily promoted and tickets are heavily discounted.
 
I just can't imagine attendance raising because it's gonna' be a shorter race and now they won't be bored so bad........


It appears to me that if they were bored with a long race they probably shouldn't have been there in first place........ or........ just show up for the last 50 laps...... the traffic will be a lot better then........
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Any method used would be preferable to having a car 3 laps down being able to get back on the lead lap in short order due to wave arounds and double file restart wrecks. Nascar seems to like to have as many cars as possible on the lead lap as possible as it makes the competition seem closer.
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So you are denying that laps have been given back, since the beginning? Or you're not exactly denying it, but it was OK because, well, you know, back in the day?
 
LewTheShoe said:
So you are denying that laps have been given back, since the beginning? Or you're not exactly denying it, but it was OK because, well, you know, back in the day?
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Sorry I have only one eye and ear opened as this is boring the crap out of me! Way back when under certain cautions the leader would slow and other cars would pass him to get a lap back. While that was not ideal it was far better than the gifts Nascar doles out each race via the free pass, wave around, double wreck restarts and bogus cautions. Hopefully that puts this to bed.
 
LewTheShoe said:
... BTW, what's your rationale for lapped cars restarting in their own line at the front? How was that an "earned" position?
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I always disliked having the lap-down cars on the inside line. The leaders had already passed these guys once. Then they'd have to pass them again, and from the outside line to boot.
 
gnomesayin said:
Unfortunately Monday Night Football has taken the biggest hit of all with the NFL's decline this season. Regular Sunday afternoon games were down less than 5% overall, and Monday night was down close to 20%.

I don't believe that has anything to do with being on a weeknight though. Monday Night Football was an institution and ratings monster for decades. What happened is that the NFL finally hit a point of oversaturation. All of the true showcase games shifted to Sunday night, a night that does have more TVs in use, and MNF became the final unremarkable game of a week in which people were inundated with too much NFL on multiple nights.
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Remember, MNF rose to dominance back in the days when there were only 3 networks. If you liked watching sports, MNF was literally your only regularly scheduled weeknight option.
 
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