What about ref in Control Tower to see if the accident debris caution mask or a racing deal

Charlie Spencer said:
I don't agree that the process is broken. There are changes I'd like to see AFTER the yellow is already out to reduce the length of the caution. I think NASCAR is sometimes a bit quick to call a caution, but I'm mostly satified with the current decision making process.
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Nascar really, really, really needs to get it in gear for cautions that are nothing more than picking up a marble or something else simple in order to keep the race at speed. When it comes to cleaning up a debris field or fluids all the time necessary should be taken in order to ensure driver safety. It isn't worth risking problems by hurrying.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Nascar really, really, really needs to get it in gear for cautions that are nothing more than picking up a marble or something else simple in order to keep the race at speed. When it comes to cleaning up a debris field or fluids all the time necessary should be taken in order to ensure driver safety. It isn't worth risking problems by hurrying.
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Agreed. If it's only hard debris (no liquids), keep pit road closed. It shouldn't take more than three laps anywhere to pick up a piece of sheet metal.
 
Instead of ref's , just how about throwing the caution flag when its needed, and don't throw it when its not needed.

I still have no idea what the OP is talking about , just as an FYI, NASCAR already has ref's they ,are called NASCAR officials, they wear black on tan pants with a grey shirt that says "Official" on it.
 
stop it's not going to change, nascar has been having BS caution for as long as I have been watching. hell in 1990 they had a BS caution that cost DALE the 500. it's part of nascar.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
You'll probably also have the crowd that will say that they are showing you a piece of debris that wasn't actually on the track. Or, if they would actually show them picking it up, it'll be that some other worker threw it down. It would never end. I don't really know how big of a deal it is anyway, to NASCAR that is. I mean the people that are accusing them of throwing debris cautions are still tuning in on Sunday to watch the race. If they aren't watching then how can they comment as to if a caution is or isn't necessary? Much ado about nothing.
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Just go back to the status quo "tin foil hat" bs please. You're either not paying attention or you haven't been watching long enough to remember when these races were allowed to unfold naturally.

https://racingnews.co/2015/11/30/invisible-nascar-debris-cautions/

NASCAR-Debris-Cautions-Chart-4.jpg


Brian France the marketing genius took over in 2003, if you didn't already know. And I already know what you're going to say in response to this graph, so please provide a quote or two from NASCAR top management stating their debris caution safety initiative around or about 2003, or even some driver or fan voiced concern that a lack of debris cautions was a problem that needed fixin.'
 
RowdyBusch said:
Just go back to the status quo "tin foil hat" bs please. You're either not paying attention or you haven't been watching long enough to remember when these races were allowed to unfold naturally.

https://racingnews.co/2015/11/30/invisible-nascar-debris-cautions/

NASCAR-Debris-Cautions-Chart-4.jpg


Brian France the marketing genius took over in 2003, if you didn't already know. And I already know what you're going to say in response to this graph, so please provide a quote or two from NASCAR top management stating their debris caution safety initiative around or about 2003, or even some driver or fan voiced concern that a lack of debris cautions was a problem that needed fixin.'
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Interesting graph and thanks for posting as it throws another log on the fire.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Interesting graph and thanks for posting as it throws another log on the fire.
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I assume the log you're talking about is the fact that the increase in cautions came on the heels of the deaths of Esrnhardt Sr and other racers . Safety became the primary focus , not only to save the lives of drivers , but also the lives of fans in the stands. Can't remember .... Has there been a death since 2001?
 
ted@economy said:
I assume the log you're talking about is the fact that the increase in cautions came on the heels of the deaths of Esrnhardt Sr and other racers . Safety became the primary focus , not only to save the lives of drivers , but also the lives of fans in the stands. Can't remember .... Has there been a death since 2001?
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Maybe but I dont think so, and the big ones on RP superspeedways are usually due to the huge packs. A situation that debris cautions help to create. Cautions breed Cautions 101.
Futhermore if Nascar wanted to reduce those types of risk for the fans in the stands, they could end the insainty induced Green White Checkers on the RP tracks.

Those debris cautions are often legitimate, but they are also used as resets to tighten up a run away too.
Nascar keeps the drivers smiling with the shut up fines.
But there is no need for fans to deny the realities imo.
 
ted@economy said:
I assume the log you're talking about is the fact that the increase in cautions came on the heels of the deaths of Esrnhardt Sr and other racers . Safety became the primary focus , not only to save the lives of drivers , but also the lives of fans in the stands. Can't remember .... Has there been a death since 2001?
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Actually I meant that the graph added another item entered into the discussion. IDK how many Nascar drivers have been hurt or killed due to Nascar officials being dilatory in deploying the yellow flag due to debris but none come to mind. Can you or anyone else recall an instance where this has happened in the modern era? Actually I can't think of any deaths from any series where the sanctioning body has taken a laissez–faire attitude toward debris can or anyone else?

Statistics are a great investigative tool but only if they are taken in the proper context and totality. If I said that since debris cautions have risen Nascar has seen an erosion in its fan base I would be correct however in reality it is highly likely it is not even a tertiary reason. If I use your logic if Nascar is not hyper vigilant in calling debris cautions the death rate will go up but Nascar will gain more fans. Nice try Ted......:D
 
Greg said:
Maybe but I dont think so, and the big ones on RP superspeedways are usually due to the huge packs. A situation that debris cautions help to create. Cautions breed Cautions 101.
Futhermore if Nascar wanted to reduce those types of risk for the fans in the stands, they could end the insainty induced Green White Checkers on the RP tracks.

Those debris cautions are often legitimate, but they are also used as resets to tighten up a run away too.
Nascar keeps the drivers smiling with the shut up fines.
But there is no need for fans to deny the realities imo.
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Your reasoning is the reason why I say Nascar talks out of both sides of their mouth concerning safety. On one hand a rolling tire on pit road or a microscopic piece of rubber on track represent a clear and present danger. On the other hand double wreck restarts and restrictor plate races plus GWC's are breeding grounds for problems but Nascar and the majority of fans have an "oh well" attitude toward them. The idea is that we have to have unsafe tracks and unsafe procedures.....well.....just because and as long as we try and minimize the effects of these sanctioned procedures we can all sit by the campfire and sing Kumbaya. I have never heard so much rot in my life.
 
I do not remember too many fans or drivers dying from a rubber debris. The debris, (the size of an ENGINE ) was the only recent example I can think of at
Daytona for the fence.
 
RowdyBusch said:
Just go back to the status quo "tin foil hat" bs please. You're either not paying attention or you haven't been watching long enough to remember when these races were allowed to unfold naturally.

https://racingnews.co/2015/11/30/invisible-nascar-debris-cautions/

NASCAR-Debris-Cautions-Chart-4.jpg


Brian France the marketing genius took over in 2003, if you didn't already know. And I already know what you're going to say in response to this graph, so please provide a quote or two from NASCAR top management stating their debris caution safety initiative around or about 2003, or even some driver or fan voiced concern that a lack of debris cautions was a problem that needed fixin.'
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Just to complicate things further, 2004 is also when the Chase started. :D
 
ted@economy said:
I assume the log you're talking about is the fact that the increase in cautions came on the heels of the deaths of Esrnhardt Sr and other racers . Safety became the primary focus , not only to save the lives of drivers , but also the lives of fans in the stands. Can't remember .... Has there been a death since 2001?
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Again, please find one quote from any Nascar official or higher up stating they were going to up the amount of debris cautions for safety reasons TWO YEARS after Dale Earnhardt's death. You're purely speculating. Soft walls were talked about and implemented, head and neck restraints were talked about and implemented, racing back to the yellow was openly talked about and then implemented. Are you seeing a pattern here? Debris cautions with ten to go in the final race of the season for a spring rubber on the apron is not a safety measure for any thinking person.
 
Not to mention the water bottle thrown from the car during the final race of the season too.
 
Greg said:
Futhermore if Nascar wanted to reduce those types of risk for the fans in the stands, they could end the insainty induced Green White Checkers on the RP tracks.
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To be fair, Greg, Nascar's new overtime procedures are specifically to reduce GWC restarts at plate tracks IMO, and the reason is that GWC restarts are particularly dangerous. Previously the rule was, up to three GWC restarts. Now the rule is, only one GWC restart with the provision that low speed restarts are not counted as attempts. So that is something good. Just my $0.02.
 
LewTheShoe said:
To be fair, Greg, Nascar's new overtime procedures are specifically to reduce GWC restarts at plate tracks IMO, and the reason is that GWC restarts are particularly dangerous. Previously the rule was, up to three GWC restarts. Now the rule is, only one GWC restart with the provision that low speed restarts are not counted as attempts. So that is something good. Just my $0.02.
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Ok it only sucks 1/3 as bad now.
 
RowdyBusch said:
........ is not a safety measure for any thinking person.
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You would likely know more about cautions than me because I'm sure not a thinking person . Likely Nascar's improved safety record is pure coincidence . Thanks for bringing that to my attention .
 
ted@economy said:
You would likely know more about cautions than me because I'm sure not a thinking person . Likely Nascar's improved safety record is pure coincidence . Thanks for bringing that to my attention .
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You didn't even attempt to address the issue, so I'm not sure why you bothered. My position is based on observation, your position is basically "I trust Brian France." Brian France, the guy that hates long green runs so much he created the caution clock... The.... Caution.....Clock..... A timer on green flag racing..... Come on dude.... Nascar is very vocal about safety, and they've done an incredible job, that's not what this is about. It's about phony cautions to spice up races, especially towards the end of a race.

I could go to youtube right now and in five minutes find 20 examples of cars scraping the wall and recovering, doing a half spin and recovering, or water bottles in the grass bringing out yellows. You can always sit there and say "well gosh, I guess they were just being extra careful," but that's a bit of a cop out. Find one quote from a Nascar higher up about tripling debris cautions in the name of safety. Just one.
 
For the sake of clarity I checked and after 22 races, the total number of caution flags thrown for debris totals 31.
 
aunty dive said:
For the sake of clarity I checked and after 22 races, the total number of caution flags thrown for debris totals 31.
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Good start. Now we need an independent accounting firm to audit those 1.4 cautions per race to determine how many resulted from legitimate debris versus borderline debris versus phantom debris. Just so we know what we are dealing with...:mad:
 
LewTheShoe said:
Good start. Now we need an independent accounting firm to audit those 1.4 cautions per race to determine how many resulted from legitimate debris versus borderline debris versus phantom debris. Just so we know what we are dealing with...:mad:
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Sadly , that would only increase the outrage .
 
RowdyBusch said:
You didn't even attempt to address the issue, so I'm not sure why you bothered. My position is based on observation, your position is basically "I trust Brian France." Brian France, the guy that hates long green runs so much he created the caution clock... The.... Caution.....Clock..... A timer on green flag racing..... Come on dude.... Nascar is very vocal about safety, and they've done an incredible job, that's not what this is about. It's about phony cautions to spice up races, especially towards the end of a race.

I could go to youtube right now and in five minutes find 20 examples of cars scraping the wall and recovering, doing a half spin and recovering, or water bottles in the grass bringing out yellows. You can always sit there and say "well gosh, I guess they were just being extra careful," but that's a bit of a cop out. Find one quote from a Nascar higher up about tripling debris cautions in the name of safety. Just one.
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The bottom line is that linking increased debris cautions with safety is gobbledygook.
 
ted@economy said:
Sadly , that would only increase the outrage .
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I can't speak for others but the only thing I am remotely outraged about is that anyone would link the increased debris cautions with safety as it is complete bollocks. I think amused would be a better description for me than outrage.
 
I remember a few years ago TV commentators said they couldn't show all debris on the track because so many things are happening under caution, but sure as hell if there was debris there was a camera to see it. Not so much if none was out there
 
Bucky Badger said:
I remember a few years ago TV commentators said they couldn't show all debris on the track because so many things are happening under caution, but sure as hell if there was debris there was a camera to see it. Not so much if none was out there
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Stop this kind of talk right now, Ted has convinced me that debris cautions = safety, and nothing you can say is going to change my mind.

 
The caution referee needs to wear checker (flag) plaid shirts, none of the football or rasslin black and white striped stuff.......

.... make that checkerd plaid school girl mini skirted outfitted hawt wimmins, and it will all be worthwhile.....
 
If they didn't allow pitting under a yellow flag, then it wouldn't matter as much. But we can't have that, we need as many cars on the lead lap as possible.
 
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