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What do you think of Jimme Johnson?

Reck

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The bottom line is Gordon is never going to be regarded as a GOAT except by financial Gordon fans. You have three, Petty, Sr, and Johnson. Like them or hate them, it is what it is. These are never going away

View attachment 47209
But he’s already regarded as such. Hall of famer already.

Looks like you need to deal with that.
 

Joker

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Other than championships in a screwed up format, what exactly does JJ have over Gordon?
 

ChexOrWrex

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The bottom line is Gordon is never going to be regarded as a GOAT except by financial Gordon fans. You have three, Petty, Sr, and Johnson. Like them or hate them, it is what it is. These are never going away

View attachment 47209
What’s really funny is this photo is cropped because Jeff’s name is on all of these trophies as the car owner :p Championships don’t bother me a bit, Jimmie earned them and Jeff will say just as much. Can’t argue with the horse’s mouth.

I’ve always looked at win counts and performance consistency. Jeff leads wins, top 5s top 10s poles, laps lead, average finish and other categories in a landslide - and Jeff only has 4 more full time seasons under his belt than Jimmie. Sorry, at every level of consistent performance Jeff holds the crown.

None of that diminishes Jimmie’s and the #48 team’s historic accomplishments.
 

jaqua19

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But he’s already regarded as such. Hall of famer already.

Looks like you need to deal with that.
This point is that seven championships is the utmost elite of NASCAR. Gordon has the second most championships with four. There's no five time champion there's no six-time champion. Regardless of the format, seven-time champions are the royalty of NASCAR accomplishment. Stand on it is completely right and outside of Gordon's fan base, Johnson will historically be ranked higher. It just is what it is.

Gordon is still one of the GOATS but he's a just below the greats of greats.

Jimmie
Dale
Jeff
Petty
Pearson

Rank them how you want, but these are the five best to ever do it. Most people value seven championships more than anything else

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jaqua19

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Other than championships in a screwed up format, what exactly does JJ have over Gordon?
Seven championships in the same format Jeff raced under. Valuing championships won under new vs old systems is a bias and an intangible that is impossible to be measured. Gordon in 2007 had speed and consistency all year and could of won it. He was fast in the Chase, won 2 of th first 5 races. His performance didn't drop.

2014, he had a shot if he didn't get wrecked. 2015? What if he won it in 2015? Would you say he wasn't deserving? Of course he would have. He'd be a 5x champion.

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Joker

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Valuing championships won under new vs old systems is a bias and an intangible that is impossible to be measured.
So you think KDB's '15 championship is just as valid as Gordon's '98?
 

ChexOrWrex

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So you think KDB's '15 championship is just as valid as Gordon's '98?
Or even Tony Stewart’s 2011 championship. There are others where the zeroing out of the points from the previous 26 races is the only reason a driver was championship competitive and much less won the championship. 2011 is the best example.
 

jaqua19

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So you think KDB's '15 championship is just as valid as Gordon's '98?
You are using an outlier season that doesn't necessarily reflect the current points format itself. That was a ruling NASCAR made in a particular circumstance. You can call it a "symptom" of the newer points format, but it doesn't necessarily reflect it. Secondly you are then comparing it to what is unanimously considered the greatest / best / most dominant season of the modern era. If that is not the textbook definition of confirmation bias, I don't know what is.

In regards to 2015, yeah it's a bummer that Kyle was eligible in that NASCAR let him compete for the 10 race championship. I can empathize with those who think he didn't deserve it. But he outperformed everyone in the 2015 playoffs, which is what you have to do to win the championship and within the context of the current format Kyle was just as deserving as a champion as any pre-chase champion. The champion is a champion. I can understand how some Jeff Gordon fans will always load the system because it took three championships away ( one of which he lost to his protege, the most recent seven-time champion). I get it. But the champion is a champion.

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ChexOrWrex

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Regardless of the format, seven-time champions are the royalty of NASCAR accomplishment.

Jimmie
Dale
Jeff
Petty
Pearson
I don’t even regard Jeff as a better drive than Richard.

I don’t understand how you spent time saying that 7 championships is the peak of NASCAR accomplishments but rank Jeff above a 7 time champion who has accomplished the most.

Immediately contradicting.
 

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Or even Tony Stewart’s 2011 championship. There are others where the zeroing out of the points from the previous 26 races is the only reason a driver was championship competitive and much less won the championship. 2011 is the best example.
I get this. But what if this was always the point system? What if NASCAR came out with this in 1972? Then, in 2003 they decided to go with the full season format? What fans be complaining for 30 years that this isn't the way to crown a champion when historically this is how NASCAR would have done it?

Both systems have their own value. Pre-chase, drivers can afford to coast. They can afford a bad racer too. they can have lapses and execution here and there. Which is what made seasons like 98 Gordon, 87 Dale, 82 DW so special because they had "Chase level" performance all year.

On the other hand, with the new format, drivers need to be flawless with execution and preparation because one bad race can take you out of it. In some ways, a season long point system can be more difficult, and other ways a 10 rate shootout can be more difficult. They both have their own small margins of error. The current format's is arguably smaller.

The champion is crowned by being the best within the box they are placed in. Champion is a champion. Everything else is subjective. But we've had playoffs close to 20 years now.

And just for the record, I liked the original Chase format better. I'm not a fan of a one race shootout (despite it usually having the best cars). But I accept it. Don't claim that they are lesser champions for succeeding in this format.

I do like the stage points though as it rewards performance. If NASCAR somehow went back to the original Chase format, or when they had a 12-driver chase and they used stage points and playoff points, I would love it. I would get rid of throwing cautions at each stage though. Just score them as of that lap. To me, that's the best of both worlds

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jaqua19

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I don’t even regard Jeff as a better drive than Richard.

I don’t understand how you spent time saying that 7 championships is the peak of NASCAR accomplishments but rank Jeff above a 7 time champion who has accomplished the most.

Immediately contradicting.
I place less value on pre-modern era success. That's it

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ChexOrWrex

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Pre-chase, drivers can afford to coast. They can afford a bad racer too. they can have lapses and execution here and there. Which is what made seasons like 98 Gordon, 87 Dale, 82 DW so special because they had "Chase level" performance all year.
Because they deserved it. They performed well enough in so many earlier races that they gave themselves a cushion. They earned it. To be 100% accurate this luxury was usually afforded to 1 team - the leader. Everyone else was scrounging and digging every week to fill the gap.


On the other hand, with the new format, drivers need to be flawless with execution and preparation because one bad race can take you out of it. In some ways, a season long point system can be more difficult, and other ways a 10 rate shootout can be more difficult. They both have their own small margins of error. The current format's is arguably smaller.
This is mostly incorrect. Teams win a single race and they can make every race leading up to the final 10 a test session. Only 11 races matter. The one you win and the final 10.
 

jaqua19

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Because they deserved it. They performed well enough in so many earlier races that they gave themselves a cushion. They earned it. To be 100% accurate this luxury was usually afforded to 1 team - the leader. Everyone else was scrounging and digging every week to fill the gap.



This is mostly incorrect. Teams win a single race and they can make every race leading up to the final 10 a test session. Only 11 races matter. The one you win and the final 10.
I'm talking about the final 10 races. I'm not saying you need to be flawless all year. You need to just be good enough all year. But during those final 10 races, there is a two and a half month period where the championship drivers arguably have more pressure to perform than any two and a half month period of pre-chase drivers.

Let me ask you this, what if Jeff Gordon won three Chase championships? What if during those three championships, he would not have won it under the old format? He still had all the wins, all the crown jewel events... What do you accept him as a seven-time champion?

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ChexOrWrex

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I'm talking about the final 10 races. I'm not saying you need to be flawless all year. You need to just be good enough all year.
Is the cutoff still top 35 in points? “Good enough” is a joke for most teams. Remain in the top 35 in points of a 35-40 car field. Unless a RWR team wins a race this “just be good enough” is a walk in the park. In my opinion, it should not be so easy in the highest level of stock car racing.

Let me ask you this, what if Jeff Gordon won three Chase championships? What if during those three championships, he would not have won it under the old format? He still had all the wins, all the crown jewel events... What do you accept him as a seven-time champion?

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I would make the same argument because “what ifs” opens pandora’s box. If “ifs” and “buts” were candy and nuts we’d have a merry christmas.
 

Reck

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This point is that seven championships is the utmost elite of NASCAR. Gordon has the second most championships with four. There's no five time champion there's no six-time champion. Regardless of the format, seven-time champions are the royalty of NASCAR accomplishment. Stand on it is completely right and outside of Gordon's fan base, Johnson will historically be ranked higher. It just is what it is.

Gordon is still one of the GOATS but he's a just below the greats of greats.

Jimmie
Dale
Jeff
Petty
Pearson

Rank them how you want, but these are the five best to ever do it. Most people value seven championships more than anything else

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I disagree.

Winning a championship is the ultimate accomplishment in NASCAR. That is it's peak.

Winning more championships is always a nice feat but once you do it once over, you dont become extra champion. You're still a champion regardless of the number at the end of the day.

Earlier you said you value pre modern NASCAR less so than now but you put Dale second to Jimmie and Petty and perason as last tier. That's crazy and a conversation for another day. lol

Also you didn't say this but what the heck is a "financial Gordon" fan. lmao
 

Reck

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One who is on a Jimmie Johnson thread trying to convince whoever will listen that a four time champion is better than a seven time one.
Oh, in that case, Gordon is 100% the better talent.

Having a fast car doesn’t mean you have raw talent. It means you have a fast car.

Jimmie had that for most of his career. Gordon did as well but look at his background of racing compared to Jimmie’s. It’s non existent.

If you want to argue about championships, cool but if you want to argue about raw talent and skills and still say Jimmie has the edge over Gordon then you’re in fantasy land.
 

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Oh, in that case, Gordon is 100% the better talent.

Having a fast car doesn’t mean you have raw talent. It means you have a fast car.

Jimmie had that for most of his career. Gordon did as well but look at his background of racing compared to Jimmie’s. It’s non existent.

If you want to argue about championships, cool but if you want to argue about raw talent and skills and still say Jimmie has the edge over Gordon then you’re in fantasy land.
They were on the same team for years.

Jimmie won more races and titles.
 

Joker

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My post you mean?

Which part is factually wrong? I think that having a fast car is not truly indicative of your skills.
Jimmie having more wins. It ain't true.
 

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The original question:
What do you think of Jimme Johnson?

I do not dislike JJ, I do not think of him at all. No particular reason, I just do not care about him at all, never have.
 

jaqua19

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Is the cutoff still top 35 in points? “Good enough” is a joke for most teams. Remain in the top 35 in points of a 35-40 car field. Unless a RWR team wins a race this “just be good enough” is a walk in the park. In my opinion, it should not be so easy in the highest level of stock car racing.


I would make the same argument because “what ifs” opens pandora’s box. If “ifs” and “buts” were candy and nuts we’d have a merry christmas.
Lolol true. So you aren't one who says Gordon would be a 7x champ without the Chase then. Okay, I'll commend you for that.

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jaqua19

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I disagree.

Winning a championship is the ultimate accomplishment in NASCAR. That is it's peak.

Winning more championships is always a nice feat but once you do it once over, you dont become extra champion. You're still a champion regardless of the number at the end of the day.

Earlier you said you value pre modern NASCAR less so than now but you put Dale second to Jimmie and Petty and perason as last tier. That's crazy and a conversation for another day. lol

Also you didn't say this but what the heck is a "financial Gordon" fan. lmao
7 titles are 7 titles. 100 wins is hundred wins. The general consensus is that x7 champs are the elite. I respect that. That's the consensus. I just can't put Petty above the other two. I can't confidently put him above Gordon because Petty is pre-modern era. But I have to acknowledge his 7 titles and what that means. Petty is a top 3 driver all time...

I just have Gordon as #3 personally. My own bias against Petty. Hope that makes sense. If it doesn't to you, I don't care enough to further explain my logic.

Also, a driver with 58 wins and one champion is > or equal to a driver with 48 wins and 3 titles..is that what you are saying?

I find that to be ridiculous. Number of championships enhance any athletes legacy, no matter how much you don't like the idea of Jimmie being considered superior to non 7x champs.

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jaqua19

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Oh, in that case, Gordon is 100% the better talent.

Having a fast car doesn’t mean you have raw talent. It means you have a fast car.

Jimmie had that for most of his career. Gordon did as well but look at his background of racing compared to Jimmie’s. It’s non existent.

If you want to argue about championships, cool but if you want to argue about raw talent and skills and still say Jimmie has the edge over Gordon then you’re in fantasy land.
He's right though, you are in a Jimmie Johnson thread explaining why Jeff is better.

So we are back to attributing Jimmie's success to his car and team. I thought this reaction ended 10 years ago. What is it with trying to deny Jimmie's talent? Jeff's winning % dropped and championship % dropped once Evernham left and Jimmie showed up and he had to share the best resources/employees with the 48. Which isn't to take anything away from Gordon..the point is having a fast car is necessary to succeed, including Jeff. We can talk Jeff's decline vs Jimmie's decline, but HMS was still #1 during his decline.

Why is there a general denial of Jimmie being one of the most talented drivers we have ever seen? He got his ride because Jeff Gordon recognized his talent. Chad K hammed up his talent. Dale Jr on his podcast even shared a story about the first time he raced Jimmie in a car and was blown away by his car control. If you want to act like Jimmie isn't in that ball park, I don't know what to tell you. Many drivers, including Joey have raved about Jimmie's talents and being able to drive a loose car. Joey has said in 2016 he couldn't drive a car set up the way Jimmie's are.

Jeff said the same thing about his cars.

Jimmie's greatest strength in his skillset as a driver was being able to drive a loose car. If Jimmie's overall raw talent level/skillset level is below Jeff, fine (don't agree, but whatever). But his greatest strength in that skillset, he had at a higher level than anyone else in the field. And that particular skill translated perfectly to a cup car. He had a team, and a CC that allowed him to maximize that talent in the car during his prime, and he was unbeatable for 5 years in a row, then again in 2013.

But yeah, Jimmie's talent is no greater than your average cup champion.

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Reck

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He's right though, you are in a Jimmie Johnson thread explaining why Jeff is better.

So we are back to attributing Jimmie's success to his car and team. I thought this reaction ended 10 years ago. What is it with trying to deny Jimmie's talent? Jeff's winning % dropped and championship % dropped once Evernham left and Jimmie showed up and he had to share the best resources/employees with the 48. Which isn't to take anything away from Gordon..the point is having a fast car is necessary to succeed, including Jeff. We can talk Jeff's decline vs Jimmie's decline, but HMS was still #1 during his decline.

Why is there a general denial of Jimmie being one of the most talented drivers we have ever seen? He got his ride because Jeff Gordon recognized his talent. Chad K hammed up his talent. Dale Jr on his podcast even shared a story about the first time he raced Jimmie in a car and was blown away by his car control. If you want to act like Jimmie isn't in that ball park, I don't know what to tell you. Many drivers, including Joey have raved about Jimmie's talents and being able to drive a loose car. Joey has said in 2016 he couldn't drive a car set up the way Jimmie's are.

Jeff said the same thing about his cars.

Jimmie's greatest strength in his skillset as a driver was being able to drive a loose car. If Jimmie's overall raw talent level/skillset level is below Jeff, fine (don't agree, but whatever). But his greatest strength in that skillset, he had at a higher level than anyone else in the field. And that particular skill translated perfectly to a cup car. He had a team, and a CC that allowed him to maximize that talent in the car during his prime, and he was unbeatable for 5 years in a row, then again in 2013.

But yeah, Jimmie's talent is no greater than your average cup champion.

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This is my OP.

Should be since Gordon, no? Dale was outdone by Gordon in the late 90s and Gordon was outdone by Jimmie etc.
:idunno:

I'm a Jimmie fan myself. I'm not taking his success away from him at all.

Jef had, how many crew chief changes? That instability alone will affect anyone's perfomance.

Jimmie's had one crew chief changed and he's fallen off a cliff. lol

I'll leave it at that.
 

jaqua19

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This is my OP.



:idunno:

I'm a Jimmie fan myself. I'm not taking his success away from him at all.

Jef had, how many crew chief changes? That instability alone will affect anyone's perfomance.

Jimmie's had one crew chief changed and he's fallen off a cliff. lol

I'll leave it at that.
He fell off a cliff WITH Chad in 2017. All the while HMS was on a downfall. In fact, the latter half of 2017 was worse than what we have seen in speed the last two years. I understand your bias is fueling your perspective of Jimmie's decline..him having less success with two CC changes (not one as you said) pulls him down to earth a bit which makes it easier for you to cope with his superiority to Gordon. But there's very clear context to his decline. You can chose to acknowledge it, or ignore it if you feel better. It won't change the fact that Jimmie will likely be Gordon's consensus superior down the line.
But this "Jimmie sucks without Chad!!!!!" Is a short sighted, uneducated opinion, and I would expect more from a dedicated fan such as yourself who posts here. But whatever helps ya.

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He fell off a cliff WITH Chad in 2017. All the while HMS was on a downfall. In fact, the latter half of 2017 was worse than what we have seen in speed the last two years. I understand your bias is fueling your perspective of Jimmie's decline..it pulls him down to earth a bit which makes it easier for you to cope with his superiority to Gordon. But there's very clear context to his decline. You can chose to acknowledge it, or ignore it if you feel better. It won't change the fact that Jimmie will likely be Gordon's consensus superior down the line.
But "Jimmie sucks without Chad!!!!!" Is a short sighted, uneducated opinion, and I would expect more from a dedicated fan such as yourself who posts here. But whatever helps ya.

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Cool
 

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This is my OP.



:idunno:

I'm a Jimmie fan myself. I'm not taking his success away from him at all.

Jef had, how many crew chief changes? That instability alone will affect anyone's perfomance.

Jimmie's had one crew chief changed and he's fallen off a cliff. lol

I'll leave it at that.
You're entitled to your opinion and I respect that you view Jeff Gordon as the superior driver. It's a reasonable conclusion and one that I won't fault you for. However, I am going by what we saw for years, immediately after Jimmie broke onto the Cup scene. He won more titles and won more races head-to-head while they were team-mates, and won more titles overall. Gordon had his down, winless years as well. Jimmie broke onto the scene and stole Jeff's thunder during a time period in which Rusty Wallace, Tony Stewart, Matt Kenseth, and other prominent champions and race winners had the opportunity to take the mantle as the sport's GOAT, and none of them did. It was Jimmie who impressed many, stole away title after title, and sometimes drew the ire of race fans for the abundance of his success for years. That's how I observe it. Also, I think Jimmie is on a bit of a comeback at the moment!
 

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You're entitled to your opinion and I respect that you view Jeff Gordon as the superior driver. It's a reasonable conclusion and one that I won't fault you for. However, I am going by what we saw for years, immediately after Jimmie broke onto the Cup scene. He won more titles and won more races head-to-head while they were team-mates, and won more titles overall. Gordon had his down, winless years as well. Jimmie broke onto the scene and stole Jeff's thunder during a time period in which Rusty Wallace, Tony Stewart, Matt Kenseth, and other prominent champions and race winners had the opportunity to take the mantle as the sport's GOAT, and none of them did. It was Jimmie who impressed many, stole away title after title, and sometimes drew the ire of race fans for the abundance of his success for years. That's how I observe it. Also, I think Jimmie is on a bit of a comeback at the moment!
Lol wot? Rusty was retired when Jimmie won his first championship.
 
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