Who finishes better? Busch/Indy 500 or Montoya/Brickyard 400

Greg said:
They have already perfected debri cautions to spice things up. I think they are very willing to do that, but I dont think they target a driver with bs penalties.
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Maybe not bit I think they were just targeting the leader, no matter who it would've been. All speculation
 
I'd like to see Kurt do well, but I think he's a bit further outside his comfort zone than JPM will be. So I say Montoya will finish better. Neither will be in the top 5 in either race.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Yep. What you said. Agree A-Z.

The whole conspiracy thing. Why would anyone waste their time watching this sport if they thought any of it is fixed for or against any driver? There's a lot of time devoted to being a fan of this sport in front of the television, at the track, reading about or listening to, posting about, discussion, etc..... Why would any of us devote that much time to this sport if we thought the outcome is being predetermined. What can NASCAR possibly have to gain by handing out a penalty to JPM for speeding on pit road? All of that BS gets old.
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Pro wrestling is predetermined and a lot of people watch that. Mind you, I do believe that Pablo was speeding on pit road, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Maybe not bit I think they were just targeting the leader, no matter who it would've been. All speculation
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Setting their personal ethics aside, the business side would prevent this. Example They (Nascar) didnt actively participate in the shenanigans at Richmond last year. The 15 car spun and altered the race and effectively kept Newman from winning the race, and we saw the negative fall out once matters were clear.

Now just imagine what it would be like if Nascar was caught intentionally ruining a drivers race, especially when he is having the (nascar) race of his life.
Such an event would destroy the sport, with lots of instant lost sponsors and revenue.

You may not like Nascars leadership, and even race control, but they are not that stupid.
 
Greg said:
Setting their personal ethics aside, the business side would prevent this. Example They (Nascar) didnt actively participate in the shenanigans at Richmond last year. The 15 car spun and altered the race and effectively kept Newman from winning the race, and we saw the negative fall out once matters were clear.

Now just imagine what it would be like if Nascar was caught intentionally ruining a drivers race, especially when he is having the (nascar) race of his life.
Such an event would destroy the sport, with lots of instant lost sponsors and revenue.

You may not like Nascars leadership, and even race control, but they are not that stupid.
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Imagine how the racing world would react if there was significant evidence that NASCAR throws bs debris cautions to make the ending of a race more dramatic. :confused: Absolutely nothing, fans are too loyal. WWE fans know its all a fake soap opera but they are loyal to the core. Even if NASCAR did release info that they indeed throw timley cautions on purpose. have a hand in who they hand speeding penalties to, or even if they did infact have a hand in the Richmond debacle to bring more eyes to the sport, the fans would still watch next weekend.
 
Greg said:
Do you has the actual data to verify that JPM wasn't speeding or got screwed (as something more than a convenient denial by JPM)?

I disagree with some things Nascar does, but I am not buying that they would have intentionally slapped him with a contrived penalty.
I also am thinking the timing lines are electronicallys monitored, if a set tolerance is villolated it automatically triggers the steward to issue a penalty. I don't think it is a subjective thing.

I realize JPM made an emotional oath that he wasn't guilty, but I think the simple fact of the matter was that he was guilty.

Besides I had JJ picked that day and needed him to win, and it was the right thing to do, I swear to it :)
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NASCAR also presented no proof that he was speedingspeeding
 
DaBiff1618 said:
NASCAR also presented no proof that he was speedingspeeding
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So do you believe they manipulated or rigged the pit timing electronics?

Who could be more objective, a steward reading the data and following the written protocols, or a driver with only his tach and the weight of his conflicted self interest?

Another problem is that conspired efforts to deprive the Montoyas would eventually get exposed. You can not operate that way secretively for generations. Eventually somebody in the inner circle is going to want to sell their story.

An enterprise of their size has to be beyond reproach in such a case, the eyes of the world are watching, and they know that too.

Thats why they did everything but stand on their head and gargle Peanut butter after Richmond last year. They didnt initiatiate that but they felt their credibility was stake, and even if we didnt like the remedies, it was more than obvious that they wanted to make it right.

Why would we ever think that they would find any value in pulling a similar stunt? It defies logic imo. And if they had a hit list why wouldn't they have targeted Johnson, the guy that many believe has put a vanilla curse on the sport.

If it is run like show buisness, you aint going let him win a second title, it just doesn't sale as good.
And why wouldn't they let a Latino or Danica win, it would definitely get headlines and bring in more money from new groups.

The answer is simple they dont operate that way, and they are not that sleazy. And there is no evidence to support such allegations.
 
Greg said:
So do you believe they manipulated or rigged the pit timing electronics?

Who could be more objective, a steward reading the data and following the written protocols, or a driver with only his tach and the weight of his conflicted self interest?

Another problem is that conspired efforts to deprive the Montoyas would eventually get exposed. You can not operate that way secretively for generations. Eventually somebody in the inner circle is going to want to sell their story.

An enterprise of their size has to be beyond reproach in such a case, the eyes of the world are watching, and they know that too.

Thats why they did everything but stand on their head and gargle Peanut butter after Richmond last year. They didnt initiatiate that but they felt their credibility was stake, and even if we didnt like the remedies, it was more than obvious that they wanted to make it right.

Why would we ever think that they would find any value in pulling a similar stunt? It defies logic imo. And if they had a hit list why wouldn't they have targeted Johnson, the guy that many believe has put a vanilla curse on the sport.

If it is run like show buisness, you aint going let him win a second title, it just doesn't sale as good.
And why wouldn't they let a Latino or Danica win, it would definitely get headlines and bring in more money from new groups.

The answer is simple they dont operate that way, and they are not that sleazy. And there is no evidence to support such allegations.
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If mike Helton stood up today & said "I'm tired of the secrecy in our sport. Today I announce that certain events such as caution calling, penalties being laid down on drivers (during the race & after), driver scuffles, victories & even the Richmond scandals including MWR & Penske have all been a scripted exercise to keep NASCAR relevant & exciting in the world of sports media."

What would you do?
 
Mr. Gregory said:
Pro wrestling is predetermined and a lot of people watch that. Mind you, I do believe that Pablo was speeding on pit road, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.
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If they measure the brain activity of the average wrestling fan...never mind.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
If mike Helton stood up today & said "I'm tired of the secrecy in our sport. Today I announce that certain events such as caution calling, penalties being laid down on drivers (during the race & after), driver scuffles, victories & even the Richmond scandals including MWR & Penske have all been a scripted exercise to keep NASCAR relevant & exciting in the world of sports media."

What would you do?
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If a frog had wings..you figure it out.
 
Sad knowing there are ' fans ' who feel that way about the sanctioning body and electronic measuring. :(
 
I can't hardly believe how many Indy fans on some of the Indy forums that use to dislike KB and felt that he was just doing this as a cheap publicity stunt, has changed their minds and are now supporting him and may follow him back to Nascar. Kurt did an awesome job and my hats off to him for representing Nascar in a great way.
 
Nitro Dude said:
I can't hardly believe how many Indy fans on some of the Indy forums that use to dislike KB and felt that he was just doing this as a cheap publicity stunt, has changed their minds and are now supporting him and may follow him back to Nascar. Kurt did an awesome job and my hats off to him for representing Nascar in a great way.
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when they see he is in 28th in points...they may go back not knowing the real Kurt
 
As far as I am concerned Kurt Busch was the real winner at Indy. the Indy car fans wont be laughing at the Nascar drivers any more
 
Bucky Badger said:
of course not, but I've been watching for 20 years, indy guys may not know much about him, just like I know absolutely nothing about ANY indy guys
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I have a feeling that any of the Indy Car fans that may have made the effort to have tuned into the NASCAR race due to Kurt's participation in their sport are short term fans anyhow. I know Kurt didn't do anything for me that makes me want to tune into an Indy race anytime soon.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I have a feeling that any of the Indy Car fans that may have made the effort to have tuned into the NASCAR race due to Kurt's participation in their sport are short term fans anyhow. I know Kurt didn't do anything for me that makes me want to tune into an Indy race anytime soon.
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Even if they come, and then go back... he hasn't hurt our image in anyway, and only good can come from what he did. I do not see any negativity in what he did.
 
Nitro Dude said:
I can't hardly believe how many Indy fans on some of the Indy forums that use to dislike KB and felt that he was just doing this as a cheap publicity stunt, has changed their minds and are now supporting him and may follow him back to Nascar.
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Was it Crapwagon? Or TrackForum?
 
Nitro Dude said:
Even if they come, and then go back... he hasn't hurt our image in anyway, and only good can come from what he did. I do not see any negativity in what he did.
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I think more drivers, especially those with open wheel backgrounds, will be open to it now that he did it pretty successfully (the Charlotte retirement obviously not being his fault). And in a breath of fresh air for American motorsports, Indy 500 TV ratings were actually up.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Was it Crapwagon? Or TrackForum?
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If you read Kurts thread on TF you will see a major change from before and after the race from a lot of the members. I was actually a little surprised...knowing how hardcore some of the Indy fans are, and the fact that a lot of them didn't like Nascar or Kurt before the race.
 
I think any good driver can drive any style of race car (given adequate time to acclimate to the car).
 
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