Who has the real figures to show

The explanation offered as composed by Buckaroo is duly noted.

It was good to see it presented respectably. Hope this is a sign of a postive change.
 
KB winning the championship in the manner he did, was just perfect. The immortal words of that legendary sage, Jim Hunter, still ring true in my ears: "Consitency got things all out of wack". That was his key note phrase, in his speach which derided the Matt Kenseth, which was notable un-spectacular from a winning standpoint, yet was consistent enough to grab the title in 2003. YES! Consistency became a bad thing to be replaced by winning!

So what do we have here inb 2004? KB come out with some good finishes while others rack up multiple wins during the all anticipated c4c non-playoff-playoff. Who wins? The consistent guy, who was consistent when it counted.

Now what will be the explanation du' jour?
 
It seems that Kenseth/Rieser have, for a lot of fans, ruined Nascar.

Maybe if Kenseth acted more like an ass when things didn't go his way, blamed his crew, punched some people in the mouth, cursed/swore more and strutted around like he owns Nascar and every track they race at - he'd be a more popular champion. Nascar could've left the points the way they were.

Some of these drivers need to get it out of there heads that they're rock stars...especially the poor, spoiled millionaires.
 
Some of these drivers need to get it out of there heads that they're rock stars...especially the poor, spoiled millionaires

Jesus Patty! Get a grip. Rock stars, STARS get it? Are a mixture of advertising and KIDS making purchases. Our top 10 drivers are something special, really special! These guys can do something that nobody else in the world can do. These top 10 can out drive everybody else on the globe. No advertising needed. No kids money needed. These top 10 guys and prolly many more than that, can WIN RACES! Please do not even consider comparing them to puny rock stars.
Betsy
 
People who cure diseases and save people's lives are special. Gimme a break.
 
People who cure diseases and save people's lives are special. Gimme a break

Naaah! They are doing it for the money! AND they are doing something that has been schooled to them by others...
OUR drivers are doing something that cannot be taught to others.. Sure we can drive around town but can we WIN a NASCAR race? Hell no! But them same drivers could be taught to be doctors... And then they would have your respect?
Betsy
 
Besty, I am just totally confused about your reasoning, but that's okay cause I'm not sure I want to understand. Drivers can be trained to be good drivers and some end up being better than others, but it's still a learned ability. However, not all people are capable of learning how to do neurosurgery, or run a company, or even cook. I for one consider myself to be a fairly good cook, but for the life of me, I can never get a perfect crepe, no matter how hard I try and I've taken lessons. Some things just can't be taught, but others can. The same for driving a car. One thing that can't be argued though is that practice makes perfect. Most of these guys in the upper series of NASCAR have been driving since they were small kids. It's called seat time and the more you get, the better you get. Doesn't always mean that you will be amoung the best, but ...
 
Betsy said:
People who cure diseases and save people's lives are special. Gimme a break

Naaah! They are doing it for the money! AND they are doing something that has been schooled to them by others...
OUR drivers are doing something that cannot be taught to others.. Sure we can drive around town but can we WIN a NASCAR race? Hell no! But them same drivers could be taught to be doctors... And then they would have your respect?
Betsy
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Lady, sometimes you just confuse the hell out of me. What--if you actually have one---is your point? I love these guys and admire them and cant do what they can do. But to consider the ability to race to be more important than the ability( Nature or nurture makes no difference in either case, only the end result) to save a human life is without doubt one of the most astoundingly stupid statements I have ever heard.
 
majestyx said:
Then I can only suggest that you don't read it. I may not be HAPPY that Jimmie nor Jeff won the Championship, but I certainly don't begrudge Kurt Busch from winning it. This is the FIRST YEAR under new championship rules, and as always with change, folks look at what could have been as a comparison. I don't like the ENTIRE concept of the C4C, but as most of you have so blatantly stated, it ain't gonna change back to the old system. We get it. Doesn't mean we have to LIKE it. Each and every person that is a member or lurker here has their own personal opinion. We may not always agree with each other, but I certainly wouldn't call someone else's opinion bull**** either.

And, believe me. This is NOT the ONLY board that this is happening on. I can guarantee it. :lurk:
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Well said,agreed Maj.
 
I am easy to understand Buck! Mostly I was speaking to Anyone that thinks curing a disease is a special person. They is just folks working for a living like everyone else. I think "special" people have an ability that cannot be schooled. I agree that we can all the taught to drive one of those race cars... but I disagree that we can all learn to drive em like the top 10 drivers do.
If anybody can learn, why are there a bottom 50 drivers in these cup cars alone? Hey Jeffy ain't the only driver out there that has been driving that long. Lots of drivers got their first ride at 6 ot 7 years of age.
I think playing a concert instrument to perfection might be an example of a "special" person. How about artists and sculptors? There are schools that teach all these endevors... And only a few have that "seat of the pants" or special ability.
But doctors? Naaaaah! They are just workin for a living like the rest of us.
Betsy
 
97forever I am not sure you read my post. Try again. Should I use larger type?
I say exactly what I mean and have no hidden meanings.
Betsy
 
Dang, when I saw the title of this thread I thought there would be pictures of Leeann Tweeden or somebody like that on here. :growl: :p

But seriously, I am probably the only person who gets what Betsy is trying to say here. Although I don't nessesarily agree with it completely. People like Stevie Ray Vaughan, John Denver, (fill in your favorite if you wish) and the like who are intensely more gifted than their brethren have a gift. That gift when used as they use it brings joy to millions of people over years. In the case of the two I mentioned that gift has continued to give long after they have assumed room temperature themselves. :cool:

At the same time the doctor's who developed a cure for Polio, Small Pox, and the like have saved thousands, perhaps millions of lives over the years. I don't think their contribution to the human race can be belittled either.
 
Golly 4X you have a good grip on what my remarks were intended to say. If you went to public school it is obvious you did not have to ride on a short bus.
Betsy
 
Betsy said:
Golly 4X you have a good grip on what my remarks were intended to say. If you went to public school it is obvious you did not have to ride on a short bus.
Betsy
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Thanks ;)
 
I'm not even goin to go there...Like it or not, it is now the Nextel Cup, *shudder* and the rules have changed. It is almost 2005 so expect more changes. No more looking back and thinking "what if"
Drive for 5 in 2005 Jeff Gordon!
 
I'd rather take a couple of laps around Daytona at 200mph in a short bus with a doctor that had 1 day driver training than have neurosurgery by a Nascar driver.

So my question, Betsy, to you is; which driver will you be calling upon when you need medical attention?
 
wow...can't believe i'm saying this, but you know that's a pretty extreme scenario, but then again, you wouldn't call a plumber to fix your roof and you wouldn't call a carpenter to fix your plumbing.
 
Well, let's see. Doctors are trained to become doctors and race car drivers are trained to become race car drivers. I guess we could agree on that, up to a point.

Some drivers are doing something that cannot be taught to others.
Yes, because the part that makes them special is a "natural" ability.
Just as doctors are educated, the special ones have a natural ability to be the best in a given field of medicine.
If every doctor was in it for the money, all doctors would be in the most financial rewarding branches of medicine rather than some chosing the lowest paying, such as research.

Race car drivers, just like doctors, are constantly upgrading thier knowledge through continuing education. Even the best of the best race car drivers go to road course specialists to hone thier skills and take every advantage of practice sessions to get seat time. The objective, to win races.
Doctors specializing in any given field do the same thing by attending seminars and studying new techniques. The objective, to become better at what they do, saving and improving lives.

But them same drivers could be taught to be doctors.
WOW !!! ooohhhhhhKaaaaaayyyyy !!!!!!!

And then they would have your respect?

Try comparing race car drivers to race car drivers rather than doctors to race car drivers or vice versa. Not every person is trainable to become something they are not. IOW, you cannot educate a race car driver to be a doctor if the intelligence for surgery, compassion and anatomy education are not there, any more than you can train me to become an engineer. Mostly because my abilities are not conducisve to fully understanding physics and mathematics.

In the final analysis, you respect a race car driver for excelling at what they do best just as you respect a doctor for what they do best, but to intechange or think they are interchangeable, well, not from my school bus rides they aren't.
As for school bus rides, I lived in town and walked to school, twelve miles, one way, up hill, both ways. And I had to carry two pails of water from the town well on the way home, in the snow. Then milk the cows and clean the barn, feed the heifers, throw down the hay....................................... :)
 
Whizzer you do ok with your explainations.. But some of us have their heads under their wings.
Questions like this.

So my question, Betsy, to you is; which driver will you be calling upon when you need medical attention?

Make me wonder just how long the writers school bus was. Honestly I sometimes wonder just how much time some folks spend in actually thinking.
Hey folks it is OK to think! It might be the only thing that is free all over the world. Some of us need to try it.
Betsy
 
"As for school bus rides, I lived in town and walked to school, twelve miles, one way, up hill, both ways. And I had to carry two pails of water from the town well on the way home, in the snow. Then milk the cows and clean the barn, feed the heifers, throw down the hay......................................." BY:WHIZZER


But were you barefooted? :D
 
If you need to resort to personal attacks on a person...then obviously you win.
 
All arguments are personal attacks! Surely you would take it personaly that the other person thinks exactly the opposite of what you think. And if the other person thinks you are stupid for thinking the way you do, why would that be any more personal?
That voice in our heads tells us all that we are thinking correctly on any one subject. My voice as well as yours. So if we disagree I assume it is a personal attack against the way I think...don't you?
Betsy
 
Whizzer, we must have been neighbors, but you lived closer to the school than me. :)

Besty, one last comment from me to you. As in pro basketball, pro football, pro baseball and all the other professional team games, there are just so many open spots that can be filled. While the truely talented most make their way to the top of their profession, there are many sleepers out there who never really get a full chance to show what they have. In the old days of NASCAR, the drivers mostly all came from the south with few exceptions. Why? Because that's where you had to be to become noticed. Many of them came from a long line of racing families. The two most successful drivers in NASCAR history weren't the first in their family to race. The top echelon of NASCAR has so few spot available for the best drivers, and to top that off, of the 43 spots available on race day, only about half of them are actually capable of winning often. With the owners now looks all over the country for talent, it's very hard to be able to pick and choose from that big of a pool of drivers. One can never tell if you've got yourself the next Jeff Gordon, or the next Casey Atwood. One can only hope. However, there will always be drivers who might have the ability to wheel a car for years and win championship after championsip but never get the chance for one reason or another.

You must really adore these warriors out on the track to give them such accolades. But that's our society. Worship and adore those sports figures and to hell with the ordinary people who educate, heal and make the rest of society moving along.
 
Howdy Buckaroo
I agree with you everywhere except I cannot see how you can think I could:

Worship and adore those sports figures and to hell with the ordinary people who educate, heal and make the rest of society moving along.

I do not recall saying anything of the kind. What I did say (I at least tried to say) is that these top 10 drivers have something that the run of the mill driver does not have. You can call it what ever you like. I liken it to an artist of any profession. They have something that cannot be taught. The same will apply to folks in many other endevors.
And No! I personaly do not worship nor do I adore any of these drivers. I would guess that it is very shallow folks that do this about any sport figures. And for sure I ain't one of em.
Betsy
 
Finally Betsy, you are making some sort of sense. Yep, the cream of the crop has risen and thus they are making the money. But your saying that other professions aren't or don't have the same kind of thing is a bit out of the ordinary.

Have you ever heard of Stephen Hawking? In my opinion, this man is every bit an exception as any sports player you can name. I'll take the mind of a man who can't talk, walk or needs help in his every day life over any of the Jeff Gordon's, Richard Petty's, Michael Jordon's, Mickey Mantel's and any others that you can name. While I love to watch said people do what they do best, it's only for entertainment. Mr. Hawking can add to my life in so many other ways.
 
Sure I know who Stephen is (was? I thought he was on his last legs over a year ago?)
And he is one of the artists of other professions. He, too is gifted. But it is in the thinking department. Not driving. There are many folks that are gifted in what they do. I have not said the drivers gifts are above these numerous other gifts. We could prolly use up all this sites memory with names of creative ingenious people. All the way to the baker that bakes the best doughnut.
Betsy
 
I understand what Betsy is saying. And I can agree to a lot of it. A driver in any racing series does it more the love of doing it than the money received for doing it. And the successful drivers in any series of racing reach the top of the sport because of talent more than education.......there is no real educational curriculum to teach a driver how to drive a race car. She chose the medical profession as an example of something that is quite the opposite. There is no way that talent without the education will lead to being on top of the profession........education is leaps and bounds more important than talent. You can be a dumb championship driver, but you cannot be a dumb Chief of Staff at the Mayo Clinic. However, the two go hand in hand in both chosen fields of endeavors. But, I concur with Betsy that more doctors go into the field for the money than for the love of the healing. So far, the racing profession is not that way.........but, in time, that could very well change.
 
DE_Wrangler_2 said:
But, I concur with Betsy that more doctors go into the field for the money than for the love of the healing. So far, the racing profession is not that way.........but, in time, that could very well change.
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Of course every race car driver in the world will tell you they do it for the love of the sport, just as every doctor will tell you they do it to heal others. Very few professionals in any occupation can stand in front of the mirror and answer honestly to the person who really counts, saying it is strictly for the sport or enjoyment.

Race car drivers face the same choices. With all the whining about and by Tony Stewart, he has yet to return to his roots. Why ??? Because of the money. When he makes enough where he feels he can live in the manner to which he has become accustomed, he will return to the short track and open wheel racing. But for now, he is in it for the money. This does not dimish his enjoyment of driving, but his real love for the sport will return when he has enough capital, a choice only he can make.
And this is not a singular example. Professionals need the money and the attention, two basic necessities of human nature among competitive people in any occupation. The money determines the success and the adoring public provides the ego building blocks. Things we are taught at an early age. Things we refine as we get older, gain more experience and become better educated.
 
Whizz, I agree with a lot of what you say, but Tony Stewart still races anything he can drive when he has the time.
Why should ANY driver return to their roots and abandon Nascar?
Does that mean that Jeff Gordon, Junior, Robby Gordon, Kurt Busch, etc. should just back peddle? I don't think so.
Just my 2 cents
 
I agree with Kat. They have reached for the ultimate and got it! Why would they go back when they are in the SHOW! All american drivers wish to get in the SHOW. It does not matter how good they are in their league... they YEARN to get into the SHOW.
Betsy
 
kat2220 said:
Can we stop beating a dead horse please?
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If not I will have to report the offenders for cruelty to animals.

Boris Said was a great racer in the Trans Am series and he loves driving in that series. However, if you talk with him he will tell you how bad he wants to race in Nascar. He feels that Nascar has some of the best drivers in the world and he wants to compete against them.
 
kat2220 said:
Whizz, I agree with a lot of what you say, but Tony Stewart still races anything he can drive when he has the time.
Why should ANY driver return to their roots and abandon Nascar?
Does that mean that Jeff Gordon, Junior, Robby Gordon, Kurt Busch, etc. should just back peddle? I don't think so.
Just my 2 cents
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HECK NO !!!! Not abandon NASCAR !!!! That was not the point I was trying to make and I apologize if I mislead anyone. I was responding to the sentence, " so far the racing profession is not that way.......but in time that could very well change".

Well, it already has. It changed about the time Winston took over the sponsorship of NASCAR and made such a big deal of the championship.

Why do these young drivers try so hard to get into the upper echelon?? For three reasons, not necessarily in this order, but each one has a bearing on thier objective. Fame, money and competition.

Yes, Tony does still race anything he can. If Tony were not in the sport for the money, why didn't he pack his tent and leave JGR when offered a new contract and return to the arenas he claims to love so much ??? Instead, he negotiated, held out and stayed in NASCAR, FOR THE MONEY !!!!!!!

This isn't the way things are done if a person is truly loves with their profession. Someone who loves their profession and is not in it for the money will continue to do what they do and where they do it for the shear pleasure of doing it and the money is secondary. Einstein nor Salk were not wealthy men by standards of the day. They did what they did for the love of doing it.

On the other side, Edison was wealthy, not because he loved his profession, but because he saw the advantages of making money by capitalizing on others doing what they loved, which was to invent.
 
I remember the pit reporters, tv analysts, etc. talking to Jimmie Johnson & Chad Knaus before the C4C started about the aggressive set ups, engine packages they were experimenting with since they had such a huge point lead going into it. I would guess they wouldn’t have gone to that extreme under the old format and he possibly would have won under the old format instead of Jeff.

If ‘its’ and ‘butts’ were candy and nuts...it would be Christmas all year long! Congrats to Kurt, Jack and Jimmy Fenning (from Milwaukee!)
 
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