Why Doesn't NASCAR Take Wins or Points For Cheating?

Mispeedway15 said:
The thing is the amount of inspections make cheating pretty hard and minor compared to things like late models where you can **** with the tires and car weight quite a bit
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no you can't. yeah sure some are tougher than others, but you aren't going to fool a weight machine a scope or a durometer.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Just of interest, because it doesn't look like we'll agree on this one, how do you feel about penalties on individual plays? Say, leaving the pit box with equipment, throwing a spitball, or having too many men on the field?
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Those are fine and are penalties but if you are talking about taking a win away that just sounds ludicrous to me.
 
We, the unwashed masses, have no idea what machines used in the inspection process are gettin’ fooled by the best “gray area” techs in the business.
 
Simple Fan said:
To me its all about the driver. Why punish a driver by taking a win when he had nothing to do with the car's splitter being off a bit or something silly like that. They suspend the CC chief which is the right thing to do in my opinion. Alot of what NASCAR deems cheating is laughable and yeah they have way to much inspection as it is I think. To me racing is about winning and if you take the win away you have nothing, the race meant nothing and if you give it to someone else that didn't earn it, that makes NASCAR look like a joke in my opinion.
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Well, if you cheated that you should come away with nothing.
 
gnomesayin said:
Yes, the top finishing 'legal' competitor wins. There's nothing foul about that whatsoever. When the gold medal winner is found to have cheated, the silver medal winner gets the gold. That is basically the definition of a competition with integrity. Preserving wins for proven cheaters is essentially the definition of corruption. In this case it happens because 'the show' is determined to be more important than the integrity of the competition.

I am not one to overly stigmatize cheating in sports. I agree that it's always going to be present. Serious high level competition demands looking for any way to get an edge. There will always be gray areas, and it will always be tempting to step over the line to win. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be appropriately punished and rules shouldn't be upheld. Take the win and all the bounty that comes with it away, and move on to the next contest. The convoluted mess they come up with trying to tiptoe around the subject is much worse.
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I agree with all of your post, but it is a slippery slope. Hamlin's illegal splitter modifications appear pretty cut-and-dried deliberate cheating. But there are other cases where things are much more murky. A ride height violation possibly caused by a part failure? A missing lug nut? Car misses minimum weight after a damaged fender was cut off in the pits? And so forth. I agree with your solution, but there will have to be judgement applied almost every time.
 
Imagine the uproar from Mars, Pennzoil, Busch etc if a win was taken away. Would it jeopardize a teams sponsorship? as much as I'd like to see it happen there's too much money involved to make BIG waves
 
Simple Fan said:
NASCAR isn't a your average team sport though. Its an individual sport that has a team behind it.
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This doesn't make a lick of sense.

So is NASCAR supposed to be like track and field where the runner is in it only for himself?

I dont think that's how motorsport works. I think you have missed the mark on this one.
 
VaDirt said:
So in other words, NASCAR should just be run-whatca-brung, and whoever crosses the line first wins. I'm still (along with just about everyone else here) failing to grasp your logic.
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there isn't any IMO, he needs more experience as a racing fan. ya know simple stuff..a car without a driver and a car with a driver but no crew, you know racing 101..what makes up a racing team. ;)
 
Reck said:
This doesn't make a lick of sense.

So is NASCAR supposed to be like track and field where the runner is in it only for himself?

I dont think that's how motorsport works. I think you have missed the mark on this one.
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No NASCAR is NASCAR it unlike anything else.
 
StandOnIt said:
there isn't any IMO, he needs more experience as a racing fan. ya know simple stuff..a car without a driver and a car with a driver but no crew, you know racing 101..what makes up a racing team. ;)
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I know plenty about racing but this isn't a racing tooic its a punishment topic which people can see different ways. I happen to think NASCAR does a good job with how they handle stuff like this.
 
VaDirt said:
So in other words, NASCAR should just be run-whatca-brung, and whoever crosses the line first wins. I'm still (along with just about everyone else here) failing to grasp your logic.
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I dont know what's so hard to grasp about it. Winner crosses the line first he wins. Thats how any type of racing works. Now what I disagree with on NASCAR is their post race inspections. If they inspected them before the race and watch the teams in the pits then I see no reason to do post race inspection. Why didn't a NASCAR official catch the illegal adjustment to Dennys splitter?
 
Simple Fan said:
I dont know what's so hard to grasp about it. Winner crosses the line first he wins. Thats how any type of racing works. Now what I disagree with on NASCAR is their post race inspections. If they inspected them before the race and watch the teams in the pits then I see no reason to do post race inspection. Why didn't a NASCAR official catch the illegal adjustment to Dennys splitter?
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Speaking like someone who didn't witness the infamous Jimmie and Chad video. lol
 
Simple Fan said:
Now what I disagree with on NASCAR is their post race inspections. If they inspected them before the race and watch the teams in the pits then I see no reason to do post race inspection.
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You seem wholly unaware that parts can be designed to be within the rules before the race but quickly fall out of compliance during a race so as to provide an advantage. This is basic race engineering if allowed. Without post-race inspection, this becomes a very high-tech and high-dollar necessity to be competitive.
 
If anything I would argue the exact opposite of @SimpleFan. Forget all pre-race inspection. If a team is dumb enough to bring an illegal car, let 'em. Shift all the emphasis on inspections to post-race and drop the hammer when something is illegal. If a rule feels too ticky-tack to properly enforce (lugnuts), eliminate it.

I wouldn't actually argue that, but if one set of inspections should be removed, it's the one before the event.
 
gnomesayin said:
If anything I would argue the exact opposite of @SimpleFan. Forget all pre-race inspection. If a team is dumb enough to bring an illegal car, let 'em. Shift all the emphasis on inspections to post-race and drop the hammer when something is illegal. If a rule feels too ticky-tack to properly enforce (lugnuts), eliminate it.

I wouldn't actually argue that, but if one set of inspections should be removed, it's the one before the event.
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This is true though. I think post inspection is actually more important than pre inspections.

God only knows what these guys would get away with if they did away with post race inspections. It's a jungle out there.
 
Since 1991, I can think of two incidents where a win was taken
(unless you count Rudd at Sears Point in 1991). Jeff Burton had a win stripped at what was then Pulaski County Speedway in the Busch series. The win was credited to Bobby Dotter(his only win). The other was Dale Jarrett being stripped of a Busch win at Michigan in 1994 or so. Mark Martin was declared the winner. Mike Skinner was also stripped of a win at Atlanta in 1999, giving the win to Dave Blaney, but he won an appeal giving back the win.

I do not understand why they'd do it then but not now.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
And I don't know what's so hard to grasp about not awarding a win to someone who benefited from cheating.
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I grasp it but I just dont agree with it. Im just against giving a win to someone who didn't cross the line first and think NASCAR does it right.
 
I wish the rules were cut and dry like speeding on pit road. But there are gray areas where racing incidents can affect the car. I think NASCAR has enough experience over the decades to call balls and strikes.
 
Simple Fan said:
Crossed the line first though. Go ahead and encumber the win but giving a car the win that didn't earn it just sounds crazy to me.
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Hate to use an B&S sport but...


If it was discovered that everyone on the Warriors was taking PEDs during the season and the NBA decided to strip wins and their championship.... the next team to get that championship would be the Cavaliers because they are the first team to finish that season dope free.

Sam logic applies here: if the 18 comes in first with an illegal car that clearly gave him the advantage, but the 21 comes in second place with a perfectly legal car, the 21 is the real winner and should be declared the winner. Cheating to win =/= earning a win.

It's not a hard concept to grasp.
 
VaDirt said:
So you're okay with cheating. Got it. :owquitit:
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If thats what you want to call it but I just dont see it as cheating really. Especially from a driver standpoint and taking a win punishes the driver.

Im not one to complain about cheating though. I've always thought steroids should be allowed in baseball and even did a report on it in high school. Like I said to start all this cheating is apart of competition and its always going to be that way no matter the harshness of a punishment. If you get caught you take the punishment and thats it but someone is always going to be there trying to bend the rules.
 
Simple Fan said:
Yes but he's the driver. Drivers drive and crew members work on the car so if something is off on the car then punish the ones that had something to do with it and NASCAR does.
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Its the same in every team sport. 1 member screws the pooch & the whole team pays. Win as a team lose as a team.
 
ladyspartan16 said:
Hate to use an B&S sport but...


If it was discovered that everyone on the Warriors was taking PEDs during the season and the NBA decided to strip wins and their championship.... the next team to get that championship would be the Cavaliers because they are the first team to finish that season dope free.

Sam logic applies here: if the 18 comes in first with an illegal car that clearly gave him the advantage, but the 21 comes in second place with a perfectly legal car, the 21 is the real winner and should be declared the winner. Cheating to win =/= earning a win.

It's not a hard concept to grasp.
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No its not hard to grasp at all and I fully understand the process but I just dont agree with it.
 
Simple Fan said:
I grasp it but I just dont agree with it. Im just against giving a win to someone who didn't cross the line first and think NASCAR does it right.
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With that logic, teams might at well qualify with the car then make insane illegal adjustments afterwards to win the race. Hey, they won!
 
ChexOrWrex said:
With that logic, teams might at well qualify with the car then make insane illegal adjustments afterwards to win the race. Hey, they won!
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If they can do so with out getting caught go for it. NASCAR officials should keep a better eye on things.
 
Simple Fan said:
I've always thought steroids should be allowed in baseball and even did a report on it in high school.
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Okay, this reveals a great deal. Where do I start? Do you realize that allowing steroids makes steroids de facto mandatory? If some are juicing, eventually most everyone has to if they want any shot at being competitive. This is what happened in cycling. Are you aware of the ramifications steroid use has on personal health and the welfare of those around steroid users? I'm not talking about bad acne and some parts of the body getting bigger while others get smaller. I'm talking about guys on roids killing themselves, their wives, and complete strangers because of the loss of impulse control it causes. I think that's a very naive argument focused solely on the competitions alone, not considering the societal effects of sanctioning tens of thousands of steroid users hoping to make the big leagues.

If you were making the argument that players during "The Steroid Era" should be viewed with nuance and in the context that use was widespread and not properly policed, I agree. Bonds, Clemens, McGwire should all be Hall of Famers. But MLB was right to finally take steps to clean their sport up.
 
Simple Fan said:
If thats what you want to call it but I just dont see it as cheating really. Especially from a driver standpoint and taking a win punishes the driver.

Im not one to complain about cheating though. I've always thought steroids should be allowed in baseball and even did a report on it in high school. Like I said to start all this cheating is apart of competition and its always going to be that way no matter the harshness of a punishment. If you get caught you take the punishment and thats it but someone is always going to be there trying to bend the rules.
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Taking a win punishes the owner. The owner is responsible for everything, crew, driver, everybody. It should be the drivers, and owners, responsibility to make sure the car they have in the race, is a legal car. If you don't want the responsibility for that don't race. By your way of thinking, why not run an engine with 100 more cubic inches, and a turbocharger, if they aren't going to take away a win? Yes they would see the turbo in pre-race inspection, but the 100 extra cubic inches would not be, until after the race. So that makes it OK? I guess it's OK to cheat as long as you don't get caught until after the race. What about the drivers, and owners, that competed within the rules? It would seem that next time out they should cheat even more, than the winners of the last race. Where would it end?
 
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