Why Doesn't NASCAR Take Wins or Points For Cheating?

Yogisd1 said:
Taking a win punishes the owner. The owner is responsible for everything, crew, driver, everybody. It should be the drivers, and owners, responsibility to make sure the car they have in the race, is a legal car. If you don't want the responsibility for that don't race. By your way of thinking, why not run an engine with 100 more cubic inches, and a turbocharger, if they aren't going to take away a win? Yes they would see the turbo in pre-race inspection, but the 100 extra cubic inches would not be, until after the race. So that makes it OK? I guess it's OK to cheat as long as you don't get caught until after the race. What about the drivers, and owners, that competed within the rules? It would seem that next time out they should cheat even more, than the winners of the last race. Where would it end?
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While I get what you are saying I think you are over exaggerating with the turbo talk. Whenever someone "cheats" in NASCAR its never something that deliberate. Trying to gain an advantage never ends and teams are going to push the limits of NASCAR inspection and fail at times. Why take the win though? Its only going to bring more backlash to the sport and NASCAR doesn't need any of that. The system they have now works I believe expect for Cup drivers in Xfinity or Trucks and that might need some adjusting but other than that it works.

If a Cup driver gets an encumbered win in a lower series there should be some punishment but not taking the win and giving it to someone else. If I received a win because the other car was illegal I'd turn that down as I didn't earn it and that guy beat me. Its a ****** way to win and I'd hate to see one of these young drivers get their first win like that.
 
Simple Fan said:
... If I received a win because the other car was illegal I'd turn that down as I didn't earn it and that guy beat me. Its a ****** way to win and I'd hate to see one of these young drivers get their first win like that.
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Damned if I'd turn down a win if I knew I lost because the other guy cheated. I know I've been pissed beyond words when it's happened to me, and all I wanted was to get back what was mine.
 
Simple Fan said:
While I get what you are saying I think you are over exaggerating with the turbo talk. Whenever someone "cheats" in NASCAR its never something that deliberate. Trying to gain an advantage never ends and teams are going to push the limits of NASCAR inspection and fail at times. Why take the win though? Its only going to bring more backlash to the sport and NASCAR doesn't need any of that. The system they have now works I believe expect for Cup drivers in Xfinity or Trucks and that might need some adjusting but other than that it works.

If a Cup driver gets an encumbered win in a lower series there should be some punishment but not taking the win and giving it to someone else. If I received a win because the other car was illegal I'd turn that down as I didn't earn it and that guy beat me. Its a ****** way to win and I'd hate to see one of these young drivers get their first win like that.
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The whole idea of the exaggeration was to point out just where is the line for disqualification. If there is no chance of being DQed, why wouldn't anybody purposely cheat? If you have an illegal car, and you are the first one over the line, how can you say you earned that win? You didn't earn anything. If you are first across the line, in a legal car, you have earned the win. What I do want to know is, what would be a big enough breach of the rules, that you think should get someone DQed?
 
Simple Fan said:
If thats what you want to call it but I just dont see it as cheating really. Especially from a driver standpoint and taking a win punishes the driver.

Im not one to complain about cheating though. I've always thought steroids should be allowed in baseball and even did a report on it in high school. Like I said to start all this cheating is apart of competition and its always going to be that way no matter the harshness of a punishment. If you get caught you take the punishment and thats it but someone is always going to be there trying to bend the rules.
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Except for the win, because that's simply too much punishment. Wow. Just wow. You're so screwed up in your own warped logic you can't even see how warped it really is.
 
VaDirt said:
Except for the win, because that's simply too much punishment. Wow. Just wow. You're so screwed up in your own warped logic you can't even see how warped it really is.
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IIRC he does not know a NASCAR prior to Brian France.
 
VaDirt said:
Except for the win, because that's simply too much punishment. Wow. Just wow. You're so screwed up in your own warped logic you can't even see how warped it really is.
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Its not my logic it's NASCAR's which I happen to agree with.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
IIRC he does not know a NASCAR prior to Brian France.
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I dont claim to be a NASCAR genius or anything but I do remember NASCAR before Brian France and have done my research as a fan. I also just happen to like alot of the changes Brian has made to NASCAR and support it.
 
1fishman.gif
 
Yogisd1 said:
What I do want to know is, what would be a big enough breach of the rules, that you think should get someone DQed?
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Good question. With all the pre race inspections its hard to really have to DQ anyone. No one is doing anything outlandish that would gain them a huge advantage and the stuff that ends up getting encumbered is all minor stuff that any team has a chance to do. To really answer the question though I guess the only thing I can think of is if a twam were to say to hell with Goodyear and threw a set of Hoosiers or something on the car, that would warrant a DQ.
 
I am in complete agreement with almost everyone here, its time NASCAR move forward in time( meaning we want fans to know who won when they leave the track) and start taking away wins from teams that have cheated it up , you gotta hit'em in the balls where it really hurts.
 
Simple Fan said:
Its not my logic it's NASCAR's which I happen to agree with.
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Wait wait wait. Your "logic" is that they shouldn't take the win, then you go on to say that if you get caught cheating, you take whatever punishment is given. That's *your* logic (or lack thereof), not NASCAR's. You are seriously so far down the rabbit whole of your own confusion that I wonder if you'll ever find your way out.
 
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VaDirt said:
Wait wait wait. Your "logic" is that they shouldn't take the win, then you go on to say that if you get caught cheating, you take whatever punishment is given. That's *your* logic (or lack thereof), not NASCAR's. You are seriously so far down the rabbit whole of your own confusion that I wonder if you'll ever find your way out.
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The punishment given is the punishment I support. So therefore its NASCAR's logic which I agree with. I get the attempt to make me look dumb but all I'm doing is agreeing with NASCAR and if thats dumb so be it.
 
Simple Fan said:
Good question. With all the pre race inspections its hard to really have to DQ anyone. No one is doing anything outlandish that would gain them a huge advantage and the stuff that ends up getting encumbered is all minor stuff that any team has a chance to do. To really answer the question though I guess the only thing I can think of is if a twam were to say to hell with Goodyear and threw a set of Hoosiers or something on the car, that would warrant a DQ.
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Why? It's only a different rubber compound. Using a tire that is not specifically designed for a given track, would be a disadvantage. Not anything else? Underweight car, too big an engine, too tall of gears are all OK. So what I am hearing is, anything goes. I'm not trying to make you look dumb, I want to understand the way you think. Do you not think that some of NASCAR's rules should be changed? I'm just trying to understand why.
 
Why anyone is on the cheaters side I have no idea. Judge Judy would say "are you thick"? Hell, Jr should remove the restrictor plate from his car at Dega, he'll keep the win, the cash and get credit for it in the record books. And nascrap really dont care what so ever.
 
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Yogisd1 said:
Why? It's only a different rubber compound. Using a tire that is not specifically designed for a given track, would be a disadvantage. Not anything else? Underweight car, too big an engine, too tall of gears are all OK. So what I am hearing is, anything goes. I'm not trying to make you look dumb, I want to understand the way you think. Do you not think that some of NASCAR's rules should be changed? I'm just trying to understand why.
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Understandable. Like I've said though with all the inspections none of these cars have outlandish things like being underweight, to big of an engine, or anything else major or they wont make the race. The way I see it it if you pass pre race inspection that clears you of a DQ. Dont clear pre race and I guess get DQ'ed.

Yeah there are things about NASCAR I'd like to see changed. For one pit road speeding under green. I feel if the race is green then there should not be a speed limit or it should be significantly higher than under caution. Another is with the Xfinity and Trucks to get more stand alones. I enjoy watching the Cup drivers in the series and think they help with the development of these kids but I also belive they could change some things there. Instead of every Cup driver having 10 starts in Xfinity any time, Id like to see it just be 10 specific races that will feature Cup drivers. As I've also said I feel like most the stuff that gets encumbered is ridiculous and the specifications are outrageous. Everything is meant to be the same which puts it in the drivers hands but in reality none of those cars are the same so let them do the adjustments that would be deemed illegal that are going to make them faster.
 
Reck said:
Taking away wins is such a draconian thing to do though. If you dont do it then and there, then you cant do it hours or days after the race, imo.
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Winning car fails post race inspection for some things and your out. They did kick Jimmy Spenser out of victory lane. :p
 
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Team Penske said:
Winning car fails post race inspection for some things and your out. They did kick Jimmy Spenser out of victory lane. :p
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that's what I'm saying. If you're going to take the win away, you kind of have to do it while the iron is hot.

The way NASCAR announces their penalties days after the race is wierd. If someone fails post race inspections you wack them then and there. You dont wait till Tuesday.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I agree with all of your post, but it is a slippery slope. Hamlin's illegal splitter modifications appear pretty cut-and-dried deliberate cheating. But there are other cases where things are much more murky. A ride height violation possibly caused by a part failure? A missing lug nut? Car misses minimum weight after a damaged fender was cut off in the pits? And so forth. I agree with your solution, but there will have to be judgement applied almost every time.
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Agreed but not every violation needs to be cause for taking a win away.
Ride height can very during a race, take out a packer and the car can settle more at rest. I don't see how a splitter can change itself to one that is not approved and that is deliberate. That's when you know they ran that car on purpose for information. Had Denny been a little smarter to not pass the kid for the win we probably would not have heard about it. Of course asking Denny anything is ridiculous. I am surprised he didn't wad up the front end.
My point is when it is obvious, make the penalty so high they won't ever do it again. All Nascar needs to do is publish a list of failures that when found invokes a real penalty. Car and driver stay home for 2 races is a starting point. You notice Nascar did nothing to JG but then Kenseth got a unwanted vacation for the same thing and I'll bet it will be awhile before another driver does the same thing. That shows that if the penalty is high enough teams won't cheat because there is nothing to gain and a lot to lose.
 
Simple Fan said:
While I get what you are saying I think you are over exaggerating with the turbo talk. Whenever someone "cheats" in NASCAR its never something that deliberate. Trying to gain an advantage never ends and teams are going to push the limits of NASCAR inspection and fail at times. Why take the win though? Its only going to bring more backlash to the sport and NASCAR doesn't need any of that. The system they have now works I believe expect for Cup drivers in Xfinity or Trucks and that might need some adjusting but other than that it works.

If a Cup driver gets an encumbered win in a lower series there should be some punishment but not taking the win and giving it to someone else. If I received a win because the other car was illegal I'd turn that down as I didn't earn it and that guy beat me. Its a ****** way to win and I'd hate to see one of these young drivers get their first win like that.
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Come on, the cheated car may not have won if it was legal same as all the other cars. I don't believe it is very fair for everyone who follows the rules
to be punished for it because they can't win. Taking the cheated car out of the equation and the second place car WAS the real winner. Your not giving him anything he did not earn just like Cope won the 500 and he did so by being in the right position at the right time. That kid racing for the win against a cheated car does not pass the smell test.
 
Simple Fan said:
Good question. With all the pre race inspections its hard to really have to DQ anyone. No one is doing anything outlandish that would gain them a huge advantage and the stuff that ends up getting encumbered is all minor stuff that any team has a chance to do. To really answer the question though I guess the only thing I can think of is if a twam were to say to hell with Goodyear and threw a set of Hoosiers or something on the car, that would warrant a DQ.
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How many times have you heard a driver or CC say they worked all day after qualifying to change the set up because the one they had was slow? The only good thing about impounding the cars after qualifying is took away the chance for the team to make cheated changes. The car passed inspection prior but not checked again until after the race.
 
Team Penske said:
How many times have you heard a driver or CC say they worked all day after qualifying to change the set up because the one they had was slow? The only good thing about impounding the cars after qualifying is took away the chance for the team to make cheated changes. The car passed inspection prior but not checked again until after the race.
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Yes, but its my opinion that those changes should be legal. Ride height and splitter height and things like that that draw NASCAR penalties should be something every team can play with. Therefore I dont feel like anything like that deserves a disqualification.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Bill France Sr. wanted fans to know who the winner was.when they left the track. This was back in the days before universal social media coverage, when there was no regular coverage of the sport on the three TV networks, before TV audiences became more profitable than the ones at the track itself. In those days, fans may not have learned of a change for days or weeks.

This was especially true in sport's home in the Old South, where it might take a couple of days to find someone able to read the report to you. :D
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That was real good until the last statement. :owquitit:
 
StandOnIt said:
yeah for sure, if you can afford to run illegally low and pay the fine..no problem, cheated up splitter, yeah no prob, cut the check..lets starve out the little guys who have to run legal because they can't afford to pay.
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Thats not what I'm talking about at all. No fines no penalties. Every team should be able to run the car as high or low as they want. They all have the same size splitter, they should be able to position it in the place it gains the most speed. These are things I disagree with NASCAR on and therefore support them not taking a win for something like a splitter being in a different position.
 
Simple Fan said:
Thats not what I'm talking about at all. No fines no penalties. Every team should be able to run the car as high or low as they want. They all have the same size splitter, they should be able to position it in the place it gains the most speed. These are things I disagree with NASCAR on and therefore support them not taking a win for something like a splitter being in a different position.
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So from what I understand is your all for race what ya bring and the richest teams will always win because they can afford the most cheated up stuff.
Do you also agree he in a game of marbles some guy should be able o play with a bowling ball?
 
Reck said:
that's what I'm saying. If you're going to take the win away, you kind of have to do it while the iron is hot.

The way NASCAR announces their penalties days after the race is wierd. If someone fails post race inspections you wack them then and there. You dont wait till Tuesday.
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Like the spoiler inspections after a super speedway win. It gets checked before the car gets into Victory Lane. How much time does Nascar really spend on post race inspections?
 
Rather they just did an open format, similar to Indy way back when. It promotes innovation, and these ticky tack rules will go away. Simply set a minimum qualifying speed, full body design, and a full cage. If ford brings a cars that smokes the competition, then it is up to gm to work with their teams to find extra speed, or Ferrari, or Porsche... etc. Then call it something like the national association of stock car auto racing, or nascar for short.
 
Team Penske said:
So from what I understand is your all for race what ya bring and the richest teams will always win because they can afford the most cheated up stuff.
Do you also agree he in a game of marbles some guy should be able o play with a bowling ball?
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I'm not sure how you got that out of what I said there. I'll quote what I said.

Simple Fan said:
Every team should be able to run the car as high or low as they want. They all have the same size splitter, they should be able to position it in the place it gains the most speed.
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Everything is the same, same size motor, bodies, everything but why does it have to be positioned the same? Thats what most NASCAR penalties involve and its stuff any team could do do gain speed. Its never like playing marbles with a bowling ball with someone haveing a bigger engine anymore. I dont agree with the penalties but I do agree with the punishment of the penalties when it comes to not taking a win away.
 
Another interesting read for me and lots of good discussion. Kudos to Simple dude for sticking to his guns in maintaining an unpopular view. Essentially he has been called stupid, knowing little about racing and insulted but has kept his cool.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Another interesting read for me and lots of good discussion. Kudos to Simple dude for sticking to his guns in maintaining an unpopular view. Essentially he has been called stupid, knowing little about racing and insulted but has kept his cool.
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He has had some valid opinions that a lot of these old school living in the past fans tend to call him out for.
 
AuzGrams said:
He has had some valid opinions that a lot of these old school living in the past fans tend to call him out for.
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I can't say I agree with S18 a lot but it is always good to be able to have a difference of opinion with someone and disagree agreeably. He provides a good example to some of the older people on how they should behave.
 
Team Penske said:
So from what I understand is your all for race what ya bring and the richest teams will always win because they can afford the most cheated up stuff.
Do you also agree he in a game of marbles some guy should be able o play with a bowling ball?
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Sorry you cant fix stupid, you're arguing with someone whos a jibbs fan, jibbs cars never do anything wrong and if they did, its nascars fault for not putting the rule book in front of them that weekend. He/she would be on the other side of the fence if it were a Penske car in violation . Save your breathe. Once again, ya cant fix stupid.
 
rocket dawg said:
Sorry you cant fix stupid, you're arguing with someone whos a jibbs fan, jibbs cars never do anything wrong and if they did, its nascars fault for not putting the rule book in front of them that weekend. He/she would be on the other side of the fence if it were a Penske car in violation . Save your breathe. Once again, ya cant fix stupid.
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Funny you calling me stupid and you spell Gibbs wirh a j. Anyway I'm a Kyle Busch fan not a Gibbs fan. I'm also a Cowboys fan so Joe Gibbs isn't on my favorites list. Guy happens to employ my favorite driver though.
 
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