Will They Just Fine Jr

muggle not

muggle not

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Will they just fine Jr or will they take points away for the windshield infraction at Phoenix.

From Jayski's

NASCAR officials confiscated the windshield from Dale Earnhardt Jr.'s #8 Budweiser Chevy over the weekend. According to spokesman Mike Zizzo, the windshield was too thin and not approved. A penalty is likely, but to what extent will be determined by Nextel Cup series director John Darby, Zizzo said. The penalty should be announced this week.(ThatsRacin.com)(11-7-2004)
 
They may fine him 5 -10 grand but don't see them taking points. :beerbang:
 
There is some talk that if the windshield was thin enough that it could create flex and more downforce giving him more HP. :)
 
Wouldn't the flex give it less downforce? It would have no effect on hp though. Aerodynamics can work in some strange ways for sure.
 
windshield flex

mugglenot

Think about what you posted. If that windshield flexed and created more downforce, it would require more horsepower to overcome the added downforce.
The downforce would have no effect on the available horsepower.
However, if the windshield flexed in the right spot and in the right way, it might be possible to create a larger low pressure area at the base of the windshield where the air inlet to the carb is located; maybe improve airflow to the intake system of the engine? Improved airflow into the engine just might add a little?

Or maybe it was just an attempt to reduce weight in the upper portion of the car. A few fractions of an once here, a few fractions there, pretty soon you've moved a pound or two and lowered the center of gravity and the center of mass.
Every little bit helps!

And it is NOT cheating! It IS searching for any and every advantage one can find (without getting caught!) no matter how small that advantage might be.
This has been going on since the automobile was invented and will probably continue until mankind suceeds in destroying himself and the planet we're living on.
Actually, didn't they used to (and still do) dope horses in order to get them to run faster?
 
If you could find a way to come up with 4 or 5 more horse power or a extra couple hundred rpm. As close as the cars are these days that would add up to a lot. :beerbang:
 
Gollum,

These guys look for fractions of a horsepower and hundred thousandsths of a second improvements in their lap times on the track.
And the competition really is that close.
 
If it is thin enough, it may have more flex under the high pressure of air flow. More flex would allow more air to go into the cowling , and more air into the cowling would create more horsepower. :D
 
Some good thoughts that I've not heard. What I've heard is not about the HP thing, but rather creating more downforce in the front end helping the steering. Lordy, where will it end?
 
They should reinforce their 1990 ruling they put on Martin and his non-performance enhancing penalty that cost him 46 points and have Junior finish 9th arbitrarily and lose 46 points.

Fair is fair.
 
If the windshield flexed at the right angle, I believe to be equal to the angle of the rear spoiler, it would create extra downforce for grip and better steering that would outweigh the loss of 2-3 hp.

As far as some saying he played with the gray area. See Jeff Gordon. Rule books at the time did not mandate the metal type that, I think was a manifold. Gordon made his out of magnesium instead of aluminum, but it still fit all regs and requirements. Still performed the same way. It was caught pre quals and he was fined 40 grand and docked 100 pts. Nascar's reply... it's IMPLIED that it's supposed to be alum. Appeal declined.

Lots of teams, if found to be performance enhancing, have lost points. If I was on Jrs. crew, I wouldn't have even DARED to run something like that at this crucial time. Even if it was manufactuer default (which doesn't sound like it, because I am sure NASCAR experts are aware of what defaults are and what aren't), it's the team's job to ensure that all parts are reg.

Points may be a bit heavy yes. But for all those that played with the gray area, or performance enhancers... ask them how they felt about being penalized, 25, 46, 60 and 100 pts!
 
Another points reduction is just about the only way Kurt could win the Championship this year!! :)
 
It's not KB Jr gotta worry about, it's those 2 Hendricks cars. They're going to finish 1 & 2 in the points.
 
Two weeks will tell.........but, will you bet your avatar for the whole off season on those two Hendricks cars being 1, 2? :D
 
DE_Wrangler_2 said:
Another points reduction is just about the only way Kurt could win the Championship this year!! :)
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Naw, Kurts been hitting that lucky stride and turning bad days into decent ones. I may not like it, but he is doing pretty well.
 
But he can't afford to keep losing 40 to 50 points of his lead each race!! :D
 
I think this is Jr's 3rd or 4th infraction this year, heck they should just castrate him. LOL
 
I can't see NASCAR docking points for this infraction. I'm not sure whether they should or not. I would lean toward docking points since this did appear to be done in an effort to circumvent the rules and gain an unfair advantage. As it appears to have worked, and very well may have allowed him to win the race, I could certainly understand a point penalty. But, it just doesn't seem like NASCAR would have the stones to dock their most popular driver at this critical juncture.

But then again, as a huge Jeff Gordon fan I can't say I could be totally unbiased in my appraisal of the situation.
 
I would lean toward docking points since this did appear to be done in an effort to circumvent the rules and gain an unfair advantage.
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Where did you read anything that would make it appear that it was done to circumvent the rules and gain an unfair advantage? I've looked for details about this rules violation and have found nothing to indicate anyone is thinking along those lines at this time!! It could turn out to be exactly what comes down............but without any proof you are speculating at the moment. Or maybe you are just wishfully thinking. :)
 
DE_Wrangler_2 said:
Where did you read anything that would make it appear that it was done to circumvent the rules and gain an unfair advantage? I've looked for details about this rules violation and have found nothing to indicate anyone is thinking along those lines at this time!! It could turn out to be exactly what comes down............but without any proof you are speculating at the moment. Or maybe you are just wishfully thinking. :)
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I am simply using deductive reasoning here. They know dang well what the rules are as far as how thick/thin/big/small/dense/heavy things are allowed to be. They certainly knew that the windshield they were installing was too thin to be allowed. They also had to know that using it anyway would give them an advantage (however small) over competitors who were following the rules. They made a decision to violate those rules anyhow. It would appear as though they were just hoping they wouldn't get caught. It seems to me to be a lot like Sammy Sosa using a corked bat and then saying he didn't know it was corked when he used it in a game.
 
If the windsheild just 'happened' to be lighter and has no effect on the car, let it go.

If it provides an advantage, and they knew it, dock points.

The rules are there to make racing fair. Breaking the rules is - gosh, go figure - cheating.

I'm guessing it's more along the lines of Jeff Gordon 'accidentally forgetting' to put that silly little restrictor plate on for a Daytona race. "Really? my car goes faster without it?? huh, I guess you learn something new everyday..."

Sorry JR. I say you're busted.
 
I don't think anything will happen.. If they take points, that is chicken s*&t
 
If the windsheild just 'happened' to be lighter and has no effect on the car, let it go.
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What about McMurray at Bristol with an illeagle car. He made the point of saying that being at Bristol made the changes to the car irrelavent, but he still got points deducted. which happened to prevent him from being in the C4C. If he had those points he would be in 2nd in points right now.

McMurray had points taken away for having a car that did not fit within the rules eventhough it didnt help its performance, and Jr should too.

If they dont take points away, what is to stop him from doing it again. Im sure next year if he is in the same position, he would gladly dodge the rules to get a championship if he knows the only penalty is money and not points.

If you want to uphold the rules and keep the sport fair, you need to hit the teams where it hurts. BY TAKING POINTS AWAY.
 
I think we will see lots of teams try to "cheat" or get an advantage, over the other guys, with the new points system. Every point they can get, they need now more than ever.
 
MCanyon said:
What about McMurray at Bristol with an illeagle car. He made the point of saying that being at Bristol made the changes to the car irrelavent, but he still got points deducted. which happened to prevent him from being in the C4C. If he had those points he would be in 2nd in points right now.

McMurray had points taken away for having a car that did not fit within the rules eventhough it didnt help its performance, and Jr should too.
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Actually I think the X-measure example is exactly what will happen here. I just don't think you have all your facts complete.

The first time a car was found in violation of the rule (Tony Stewart at Texas) no points were deducted. All the teams were put on notice. Then when another car (Jamie's) was found in violation, points were deducted.

I think the same thing will happen here. I don't recall this being a issue recently, so I think they'll hit Eury Sr with a fine of $10,000 -$20,0000.
 
I can see teams intentionally cheat to gain an advantage over their competitors knowing it'll only cost them money and not points. That's everything to gain and nothing to lose. Nothing more than buying a championship, we'll pay the money, just let us keep the points we gained by cheating. LOL
 
WideOpenPhoto said:
I don't think anything will happen.. If they take points, that is chicken s*&t
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But the precedent was set in 1990, and no one seems to mind that one. No one seemed upset about that one when it happened except the Ford crowd. Now that an Earnhardt is on the other end of the same stick, nothing should be done, no points taken away.

Hypocrites.
 
EatMorePossum said:
But the precedent was set in 1990, and no one seems to mind that one. No one seemed upset about that one when it happened except the Ford crowd. Now that an Earnhardt is on the other end of the same stick, nothing should be done, no points taken away.

Hypocrites.
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Just let me get straight what your stance is EMP, every time a car is found in violation of the rules, they should be deducted points no matter what the violation?

You of course realize that the vast majority of rules infractions in NASCAR have been penalized using a monetary fine. Virtually every week one or more crew chiefs are fined for some rules violation.
 
Hey, steve! Please go and check the Chit Chat forum. I will post a resized avatar there for you to replace your huge one. Thanks!


Now, back to the original thread content. ;)
 
I'm saying this:

In 1990, Mark Martin was docked points from a first place finish to an arbitrarily chosen 9th place points payout for a bolt that was unapproved but yielded not one iota of advantage. That was 46 points; he lost the championship by 25 or so.

It is now 2004. Junior has an unapproved windshield. It is being debated as to whether there was any real or possible advantage this yielded. The very people who upheld Martin's penalty are now advocating that nothing happen to Junior.

In my opinion, that's textbook hypocrisy. Individual results may vary.

I propose that Junior be held to the precise penalty that yielded his old man a championship he didn't win. 46 points.


Pretty simple really.
 
4xchampncountin said.

"But, it just doesn't seem like NASCAR would have the stones to dock their most popular driver at this critical juncture."

It didn't seem to bother them when he cussed in jubilation. You think this is going to scare them???

Some people need to take a walk back to the 90's when there was talk of another conspiracy circling the 24 car.

Boy, short memories. Sheeeesh!
 
Here we go, I've been seeing several penalties for pre-race violations and fines and no points taken away and maybe u have to think maybe JR. did'nt know anything about it, how could u fine a driver for something he did'nt know about, sounds like a crewchief trying to get an advantage. I still feel mark should'nt of gotten docked points for that pre-race violation If u want to dock points dock them from the owner for those type violations.
 
Some people need to take a walk back to the 90's when there was talk of another conspiracy circling the 24 car.
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Yes, but during that conspiracy time, Gordon levied the largest fine of NASCAR, docked at separate time 25 pts, AND in one case, during pre quals, something was found and docked 100 pts.


I've been seeing several penalties for pre-race violations and fines and no points taken away and maybe u have to think maybe JR. did'nt know anything about it
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Ask Jamie McMurray on his idea about pre-qual points being docked. He may be vying for a championship right now with those measly 25 pts. At least Jr. is already in. Biffle has been docked points this year. Martin has gotten, I swear the most docked points in history for violations.

For all we know, it could have been Jrs idea, too. :) I find it hard to believe that drivers aren't informed when the team is gonna try to slip something through....
 
I love to stir stuff up a bit and I say some things to just pull DE_W's chain, but it is all in fun.

I really have to disagree with the drvers knowing when a team is trying to pull a sneaky over on NASCAR. ESPECIALLY Jr! He has such a big mouth about that stuff he'd either talk about it on his radio or tell the media about it in an interview. LOL

I think in the old days drivers were much more an integeral part of the daily opporation of a team an were involved with what was going on. I think now a days drivers have so many other obligations they don't have a clue what goes on at the shop.

Honestly stuff like this I have a real problem with a driver having points deducted. If NASCAR wants to fine a team or even take owner points away for repeated infractions. Owner points has a big effect on how much money the team gets from the points fund for next years opporating money. Drivers points should reflect how the driver performs, if he cusses or gets into fights he should be punished by fine or points whatever NASCAR deems appropriate, but the team shouldn't be punished by losing points. JMHO.
 
Here's a thought...just for old time's sake. Let's deduct 500 points from everyone in the Chase except for Marky and forget about the next two races. This would virtually hand the title to Martin, with a slim margin, and then maybe those fans of his might get over his past.

To so very many people in this world, the name Earnhardt congers up thoughts of who really wons NASCAR. I actually believe that Big Bill France is actually the father of Ralph Dale Earnhardt. :D
 
buckaroo said:
Here's a thought...just for old time's sake. Let's deduct 500 points from everyone in the Chase except for Marky and forget about the next two races. This would virtually hand the title to Martin, with a slim margin, and then maybe those fans of his might get over his past.
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:cheers: :cheers:
 
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