Will They Just Fine Jr

buckaroo said:
Here's a thought...just for old time's sake. Let's deduct 500 points from everyone in the Chase except for Marky and forget about the next two races. This would virtually hand the title to Martin, with a slim margin, and then maybe those fans of his might get over his past.

To so very many people in this world, the name Earnhardt congers up thoughts of who really wons NASCAR. I actually believe that Big Bill France is actually the father of Ralph Dale Earnhardt. :D
Click to expand...

I actually believe someone needs a grip on reality. Just for old time's sake, because they used to have one.

No one is asking for anything to be handed to anybody, except the rightful winner of it. When a sanctioning body steps in and makes decisions like that one, pulling 9th place out of a hat, anyone with an ounce of brain power questions where 9th came from.

Now we find a driver involved in a nearly identical scenario, with a totally different reaction from the same sanctioning body. And no one else smells a rat? Amazing.

Maybe my biggest problem is that my memory is too good. Makes it hard to smear the lines of distinction when you remember what really happened. Perhaps as I age, Alzheimer's will take care of that for me and I can be just like everyone else.









God forbid.
 
from what i understand they caught it BEFORE the race, can anyone confirm that ? if so only a fine, marks violations were found AFTER the race. same with gordon @ richmond they found the " offending intake" AFTER the race not BEFORE
 
* Pat Tryson, crew chief of the No. 6 Ford driven by Mark Martin, was issued a pair of fines for separate infractions that totaled $15,000. He was fined $10,000 for an unapproved air directional device and $5,000 for an unapproved windshield mounting. He was in violation of Section 12-4-A (Actions detrimental to stock car racing) and 12-4-Q (Any determination by NASCAR Officials that parts and/or equipment used in the Event do not conform to NASCAR rules) of the NASCAR NEXTEL Cup Series Rule Book. Both infractions were found by NASCAR officials during pre-qualifying inspection.


i don't see no stinkin points being taken here !!!!!
 
jggirl2448 said:
For all we know, it could have been Jrs idea, too. :) I find it hard to believe that drivers aren't informed when the team is gonna try to slip something through....
Click to expand...

Drivers are smart. These guys know more about cars than most grease monkeys at the local car shop.

I'm positive he knew exactly what was going on the car, and why! Also, if he didn't know, he'd have every right to (and should) fire the person responsible for it! Somehow I don't think anyone is worried about their job.....
 
i know that,
this is a fine for mark @ daga THIS year, Like is said i don't see no stinkin points being taken here. and really who cares anyway it ain't winston cup no more, it's the entertainment cup what a crock !
 
Okay, going on a limb here...

With all due respect, I DO NOT agree with docking Martins points. That was a sham, but it was found AFTER the race which lead him to be placed the last car on the lead lap. What was found was not race altering.

Junior's was BEFORE the race and was thought by experts it would have altered race performance and possibly his and others safety.

As sad as it is, there is still a difference. But if the precedent has has been set with people like Biffle, Martin (on a different occasion that was pre race), McMurray, that something that pitiful that wouldn't alter race performance (even though top experts in wind stuff are saying it WOULD have helped Jr.) have points taken away, stay consistent.

I still say, if you really want a comparison for pre race conspiracy.... try this.

Gordon was docked 100 pts and fined $40,000 for using the wrong metal on his... ah heck I don't remember! Anyways, it was supposed to be aluminum and his team used magnesium. NEVER did it state that aluminum had to be used in the ruleboook. The change in metal would NOT have affected his performance in a race. NASCAR said tough, it was IMPLIED that you are supposed to use aluminum (although the thought of the words that would have been used to imply that bring me to think of something like 'the same metal type used for pop cans). Appeal was denied.

Now someone keep complaining about Jr. and how mad you would have been. :)
 
In re: Jeff Gordon's intake manifold:
NASCAR had approved a GM part number for that intake. That number was for an aluminum manifold, manufactured by an outside supplier for GM and given a GM part number.

Now enter the 24 team and the magnesium manifold: not only is magnesium a lighter metal (taking weight away from the top of the engine), it also results in a much smoother casting which allows larger ports, thinner wall ports within the same external dimensions, which allow greater airflow into the engine.
Thus that manifold most certainly allowed considerable gains in two areas of performance.
GM tried to cover for their teams by saying that this was a production change. If that had been the case, all of the GM teams (instead of only a select few) would have been running that manifold and GM would have submitted it to NASCAR (as required) for approval.

As far as the drivers knowing about these infractions: I'd bet money on it.

As stated before, it ain't cheatin' til you get caught.
The idea is to give the inspectors something fairly obvious to find so they hopefully overlook the really important stuff.

And if you folks honestly believe that all of these guys don't stretch the rulebook to the breaking point, you must still believe in the Easter Bunny, the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, flying reindeer and elves.
 
NASCAR had approved a GM part number for that intake. That number was for an aluminum manifold, manufactured by an outside supplier for GM and given a GM part number.
Click to expand...

I knew about the number, but I don't think that was such an issue. From what I understand, it does seem like you do know more about it than I, but couldn't the magnesium have been more condensed to make it heavier?

If it was made to spec, as I have read it was.. how did it have larger, thinner ports?

100pts is still pretty drastic though....
 
The benefits of having a lighter and thinner windshield would give the effect of lowering the center of gravity a tad, provided the car's weight was still legal and the windshield was not replaced after inspection and before the race. Also, with a thinner shield, a better angle could be acheived if the same border spaces were used giving you the effect of less drag but more down force which at Phoenix would be very helpful. Flexing would not be a factor due to the speeds reached at Phoenix. We are also assuming that this is the first track he has had it on his car.........
 
Lil'E would have been told about the windshield. If he hadn't imagine what the radio traffic would have sounded like:
Lil'E - #@$ %^@!, y'all, this here %^@! windshield is buckling. The *&@#%^@ is about to blow in on me. Who's the dumb (## that installed this #$@^ thing. I want them fired and their sorry (## out of my sight by the time I get there.
Eury, Sr. - Hush up boy, we don't want dem O-fish-ols to lurn all ar secrets.
Eury, Jr. - Daddy, what's a windshield?
Eury, Sr. - Boy, quit sucking on your toenails and try and pay attenshun. Now, JuneBug, we'uns got everything unner kuntrol. Don't you never mind about dat der win-shill. Id'll hole and you'll win agin...

:eek:
 
jjg.

Even if the magnesium manifold was made to the same specs in the same molds as the aluminum unit, it would still be much lighter in weight and because of the nature of the different metals, the magnesium unit would be much smoother, which in and of itself would allow better mixture flow into the cylinders.
Once again, we take weight off the top of the engine and allow more airflow so we're gaining performance in two quite critical areas.
Without seeing the manifolds in question, we don't know about the port size, but I would be willing to bet that there was some difference.
The 24 team was not the only team which was using that manifold; they were the only team which was "caught".

I just noticed that you, in an earlier post, mention this manifold was caught in a pre-race inspection; wasn't this caught in a post-race tear down after Gordon had won that race?
I believe the team had even painted the manifold with aluminum paint to try to disguise it and there was some question at the time about the three car, which had finished in the top five that day, being loaded and hauled away from the track without being inspected as per NASCAR rules.

I'll bet that the thinner windshield on the DEI car was the result of many hours of testing both in the wind tunnel and on the track. I doubt that team would use something of that sort simply for the minimum difference in weight. I have to believe that the real reason is the amount of flex in the thinner lexan and the resulting differences in airflow, either around and over the car, or in the low pressure area where the carburetor air is picked up from, or gains in both of those areas.

And the cars are travelling fast enough on any of the tracks at which they race that the airflow over and around the car is of extreme importance in light of the competition within the Cup series today. Airflow will have a measurable effect on any moving object, no matter what the velocity.

Add all the little bits and pieces together and pretty soon you've got an advantage over your competition. At least until they find out what you're doing, or the NASCAR inspectors catch you.

Even the top divisions at the local short tracks today are very aware of airflow and how to take advantage of its direction of flow over and around their cars.
 
Yeah, sorry, with all this pre, post, race, quals... I am starting to jumble. I apologize.

You are correct it was post race. However, the reason I thought it to be so drastic is because when performance enhancers were found post race, like Martin's, they were placed last car on the lead lap.

I found an article here..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/motorsports/nascar/news/2000/news.gordon.html

This is where I made my post from...

Jack Housby, Les Richter and George Silbermann heard the appeal and ruled that while the NASCAR Rule Book does not specifically denote the material of the approved intake manifold, all witnesses in the hearing acknowledged that the approved NASCAR intake manifold, as listed in the NASCAR Rule Book is "aluminum."
Click to expand...

Gordon goes on to say that if you ask anyone it wouldn't have been performance enhancing. While NASCAR doesn't dispute that, they referred to the rulebook on what was used. I figured, if it were performance enhancing they would have stuck to the last car on the lead lap scoring. Of course, this is NASCAR. Also, I would have figured that there would have been some experts somewhere that would have said it was, for sure, enhancing it.

GM's take on it...

Doug Duchardt, NASCAR Program Manager for General Motors, said there is no rule against the use of magnesium, there was no specified approval process and said it was not spelled out in the rule book that other materials could be used in the construction of an intake manifold.
Click to expand...

I dunno, I didn't see the rulebook, but why would someone just ramble about it and not know what they are talking about?

Also, wanted to throw this opinion out for people to look at...

I think I see it breaking out this way; aerodynamics, suspension and weight will get you a fine while engine, fuel and other horsepower offenses are likely to cost you points as well as a hefty fine. NASCAR prefers to see teams stay out from under the hood when looking for an advantage and have consistently handed down penalties that reinforce that position.
Click to expand...

And one more to throw into the mix...

But did anyone gain the upper hand because of this recent violation? Hendrick Motorsports responded, "GM engineers believe that the intake manifold conforms to all NASCAR rules according to approved templates, gauges and other measuring devices. Hendrick Motorsports engineers have tested the part and determined that it in no way affected horsepower output. There was no attempt to conceal the part, which we have been running since April. It also passed post-race inspection in Charlotte for two of our cars. Hendrick Motorsports has a strict policy that our people abide by the rules. There certainly was no attempt by us to gain an unfair advantage with a part available to, and in fact used by, other teams, and we feel confident this ruling will be reversed on appeal
Click to expand...

"We supplied these magnesium intake manifolds to our teams in the clear belief that they are allowed under the rules," Duchardt said. "They are identical in shape and dimensions to the comparable aluminum manifold, produce no increase in horsepower and NASCAR has, on many occasions, permitted changes in materials of components where not explicitly prohibited by the rules. There is no mention of materials in the rule on intake manifolds."

I kinda wonder after seeing this... if it passed inspections, has been in the running for awhile now... why didn't NASCAR ever find it before? When the engine and parts were assessed nothing happened... til he WON. Maybe I should put that conspiracy hat back on. :)
 
Found a fun site!

http://msn.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=1595464

View that and tell me... does anyone see Dale Jr. on that list, just once. Actually, and in fact, I only see two fines for DEI total! And none for Dale Sr. (and don't no one try to tell me that man didn't know how to alter his car to cheat, he was just good enough not to get caught! :) )

:D :D :D

Edited cause I just realized I typed one fine instead of two total... duh Mary, add right! *thumps self on head*
 
If they took points away from Jr again. Good greif you think the Alamo was a loseing battle. Thousands of Jr fans attack Nascar ovel office. No survivers. :)
 
Jr's crew chief was fined $2500. No fine or point deduction for Jr. Windshield was found and replaced prior to the race.

Kahne and Harvick have both been fined $10,000 for their scrape.

Oops, sorry I missed the other topic on this subject. I have been off-line today. :)
 
Using unapproved parts is cheating.

Using approved parts in an unapproved configuration is also cheating.

Using approved parts in a different way is engineering.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom